Future of group shooting

ok

be specific. why are you against a classification system?

is it just human nature to resist change or is there something else. why be against a handicap? do you just want the newbie to beat his head against the wall like most of us had to do?

how could a class system possibly be a bother to anyone shooting now? if more attend matches and more shoot and if they donated to your winnings and provided more competitiors for you to win against, why be against that?
 
Ray do you have a suggestion for a class system? In my experence when classes are broken out you have people who shoot just well enough to win "their class" not strive to improve, they just work hard enough to keep at the top of their class and win at the level that they are at now. How does that help the sport grow? The other idea larger prizes is great but where is the money gonna come from? Raise entry fees ? Lower club profits? If I am not mistaken I saw a post that split the entire take among the shooters great idea but don't try to sell it to the club I belong to we don't run events just to lose money.
 
Last edited:
i can understand setting you sights on the top prize and not stopping as a class inbetween. but why criticize anyone who does stop at less that the top??? why judge them? do your thing and do your best and aim high for the top prize. but judge others?

and if you do win a hundred bucks and want to give it back cause it is the second division kudos to ya. but i doubt very much if any gives back the cash. i have never seen it happen ever!!! and i have attended a bunch of horse shows with a class system run very similar to what i suggested. it changed the horse industry overnight when it was implemented. it was a boom that lasted 15 years.

typically a percentage is taken off the top for the club.

entry fees are limited to what now? 40$ a day. thats 20$ per yardage class. plenty to split up for each wt class.

i will take one yardage with 38 shooters from a match report from this year.

denton tx if you must know. the numbers are easy. it was not too sporty for this yardage.

scott .2100
bill .2117
bob .2322

for first second and third in the first division

from 2655 to 4079 there are 18 shooters clustered and if we were to choose a round number such as .2 to use for a class break off we would start at .4100 which is arrived at by adding .2 to the .2100 of scott. no one had a 4100 but

vic had a 4117
jerry had 4173
mikel had 4284
these would be 1,2, and 3 in the second division

mikel was no. 26 and there were 12 below mikel


.2 was just pulled out of thin air any number could be picked.

38 times 20 is 760$ give nbrsa theirs and say 10 percent to the club and split the rest.

as to just shooting well enough to stay in a division - it wont work. cause tomorrow is a new day [ and it got real sporty the next day] you dont know your division till the scores are in.
 
I did not think I was criticize anybody for not being at the top. What I see happening is somebody will figure out how to "win" the 2nd tier prize and will work hard to insure they are at that level. I shot IHMSA pistol for a long time and watched many people who in practise shoot 30-35 BUT come match time stay at the class (ex 20-25) they were in to "win the $$$" that was all that counted, I would hate to see that come to Benchrest. As for picking the number where the 2nd tier starts how can this be done fairly pick .200 or .300 off of 1st place? it would have to be done before the match started and posted or there will be cries of a "fix" BUT the problem with that is the win $$$ at any cost crowd will figure out how to use that info. Shooter in first .200 agg through 4 targets so .200 plus .200 is .400 for the $$$ if my agg is .300 way out of the top prize BUT if I shoot a .XXX I can drop back just far enough to pocket the $$$. Think it won't happen? If it works more power to it. But the thing is I have never seen anybody volunteer to try things like this at their match. Would you like to be first?
 
Last edited:
future of group shooting

When i mentioned classifications.
Here's what i got for answers
I want to shot against the best and only the best"""
If i had to shoot only in my class i would quit
Benchrest is the Nascar of shooting only the best should shoot.
Too many games are played with classifications'
I EXPLAINED IN DETAIL WHAT I HAD PROPOSED.
A SYSTEM BASED ON AGGRIGATES
if a person stays in one classification too long and is top dog in his or her class they will be reclassified to the next level.
I rest my case"'''''
 
Gerry My point is the person who is staying at the top of their class or in that class to long most likely won't stay if moved into a tougher class. A factory class is a great idea if run on the CLUB level and not run by the national org's, keep it simple and fun The MOST important way to bring people in. Bring a friend or anybody who is or might be curious, I try to take a spare rifle with ammo to matchs and always encourage people who come out to "see what is going on" to sit down and shoot along; you would be surprised how many have fallen for that and ended up sticking around sometimes it backfires one guy beats us most of the time, BUT he is still around.
 
Last edited:
ok

be specific. why are you against a classification system?

is it just human nature to resist change or is there something else. why be against a handicap? do you just want the newbie to beat his head against the wall like most of us had to do?

how could a class system possibly be a bother to anyone shooting now? if more attend matches and more shoot and if they donated to your winnings and provided more competitiors for you to win against, why be against that?

Ray, I just do not comprehend what it means, to be the best of the mediocre. :confused::confused: Getting a trophy for finishing in the middle of the pack just doesn't do much for my ego.:eek: I don't recall critizizing, just stating that I do not comprehend the need to be rewarded, unless I outperform all of my peers at a particular event. I was once a rookie - hell, equipment wise, I was a rookie for twenty years - I shot what I could afford . . . I set realistic, but difficult goals, learned a LOT, and won just often enough to keep me interested - what's wrong with THAT??;)

If a 'class' win, based upon 'ability' trips peoples triggers, well, have at it . . . I never either wanted, or, expected to be rewarded for an average effort. I learned to take my whippings, and thus, to appreciate my victories all the more. RG
 
Last edited:
future of group shooting

The system i proposed work very well in Smallbore prone for years.
If a person just want's to shoot so so then he has a problem.
The object is to promote interest.
In any event He or she will be exposed to Benchrest and feel good about the sport.
There are some that say it's all about winning.
I personally don't agree/
I believe it's about competing with the best and having a great time with
The people shooting. We are always talking about new methods of handloading, new powders , a new shape bullet, a new type barrel rifling.
A great deal of the fun is there.
When you change something like a bullet shape or a new powder and your agg goes up or you shoot a screamer group.
The rewards stay with you for a long time.
 
randy
i do understand your ambition as i have ran for a worldchampionship twice and made the top ten.
however if only you and one other with your ambition were to show up to shoot that would be very poor attendence for a match.

by criticizing i mean that it appears you are looking down at someone without your ambition. [something that is heard about BR often]. the folks without the means[weather it be money, ambition, time,desire-whatever] far far outnumber those that have the spark or flame that burns inside. without them all sports will die. even golf.

once as a very young competitor i had won a lot for a kid with no drivers liscense and on the way home i asked dad why so and so kept comeing to the shows since he never won. pop says "remember whos money you got in your pocket- without him you would have nothing to win"

dads vision of the time trials for horse shows came to pass many years later and is wildly successful. it allows everyone to compete even if thay cant afford an animal capable of top times. and make no mistake they do want to compete but without a class system nearly all would have quit.

thanks for the chance to explain- pm sent -ray
 
Savage Factory Class, why not?

Just a very "outside" guy opinion... (that attended only 3 BR matches in life, but they were on a one year period and included NRSA Nationals and Super Shoot, 2008-09).


Why not a Savage Factory Class?


Savage seems to have the willing to make what target shooters want. They almost have a target BR rifle thats suitable for short BR factory class... and they are a big company that can put some money on the sponsorship of Matches. ( I do not like the idea of money prizes... but I like the idea of products prizes!).

Have a Savage one model factory class and then you have an entry level class for new BR shooters (and even old BR shooters!).


Having a BR class rifle available nationwide on gun shops may have something to do with atract more shooters...
 
future of group shooting

LR
You have a point. It's not a new idea though.
Back when 70,s Remington made the 40XBR and it was very competitave
But that was then. I can honestly say that at times my 40xbr would shoot very small groups {when I steared it right}
Maybe that's one other factor an affordable factory rifle from a major maker.
Maybe if the BIg THREE got interested again Savage Reminton and winchester. It might improve attendance.
Just think of the advertizing '''
 
Gerry, I dont know if I make myself clear... it is not about Savage against "others" rifles.

It is a BR match of Savages rifles only!

It is like boat sailing class (snipe, laser, star etc), or Sig 205 position rifle matches in Europe, or even like Glock's pistol matches.

It does not "matters" if Savage will group on .200 aggs. The important thing is that everyone will have the same rifle (with the natural tendency that one will be more or less accurate than others Savages of same model) and the "race" will be on best load thecniques and components, table maners and wind reading.

It just put less importance on equipment on the BR match when everyone has to shoot the same rifle model as left the factory (only allow bedding and no trigger weight less than 6oz - the factory standard)...
 
future of group shooting

It's not a bad idea.
But wouldn't it be more interesting if the other 2 joined in?
I'm looking at a bigger picture,
Manufactures match sponsored by all of the big Three.
Now maybe MORE improvement in Factory rifle,s.
Savage beats Winchester and Remington to capture the benchrest
Title for best factory unalterd rifle score group.xxxxx
By Winchesters score, Group xxxxx and Remingtons score, group xxxxx
After all they have the BIG BUCKS to do it with.
 
Guys I asked a question a little while ago. Would you be willing to be willing to run the match that these things are being tried at? Run it for a year and let people know how it worked.
 
Assuming that shooters cannot be satisfied by steady improvement in their own performance, but have to "win" to keep shooting:

Then it seems to me that we have a 2-part issue: shooter skill and equipment cost/performance. This makes BR shooting more like car racing than golf, I think.

If new shooters feel overwhelmed by shooting against the veterans, then there must be experience classes or a handicap system of some sort, analogous to bracket (drag) racing. The payout is higher to faster bracket cars, because speed costs money, so likewise the payout should be higher in the "open" class than in a 0.250-.500 agg class, or a 245-249 score class. [Personally, though, I'd rather shoot with, learn from, and get whipped (regularly) by the best.]

If equipment costs are a barrier to entry, one of the simplest systems is a "claim" event where the winning rifle can be purchased on the spot (without scope and rings, let's say) for some reasonable figure, like $1000. A careful shopper can pick up used BR rifle for that kind of cash, thus getting a better-than-any-factory rifle to learn with, and anyone who "claims" the winning rifle can no longer gripe that s/he doesn't have a competitive rifle. A really good rifle might change hands at every shoot. :) And, if somebody wins with a low-$$ pawn shop special (you know, the ones that shoot 1/4MOA "all day long"), s/he stands to make a bit of extra money if another shooter claims it.

If you want to hold down the ancillary costs of front rests, load-at-the-range equipment, etc. the "claim" class could be required to shoot off a standard-issue bipod with pre-loaded ammo.

The main problem with a "factory" class is that the quality of the rifle is basically luck-of-the-draw. A "claim" rule prevents the lucky from ruling over the skilled. I have an old Rem 700V .222 that has done its share of winning in factory class, and I would think twice before I entered it in a "claim" event!

Toby Bradshaw
baywingdb@comcast.net
 
Toby

You mentioned the NHRA. The Racer who competes on Wednesday night in the bracket classes does not show up at the US Nationals and demand they let hime run in Pro Stock.

Nor does a local flat tracker show up at Talledaga and demand NASCAR accomadate him. After all, he has a "car'.

That is why we have very active Club Match Programs. This gives shooters a chance to compete, and win something against like minded shooters. If, and when, they decide to step up into Registered Competition, they will find both the NBRSA and IBS very accomadating.......jackie
 
Jackie, personally I don't see the need for entry-level BR classes at all, other than the club-style factory class that many ranges run.

But, to address your point, you could take your bracket car to a national event and try to qualify in Pro Stock (assuming the car was within the rules). I suppose the same would be true for NASCAR, but don't know for sure.

My understanding of the point of this thread is that some new shooters don't want to compete against experienced shooters right from the start -- they want their own "bracket" and not a heads-up Pro Stock race the first time out.

"Claim" races (for whole cars or engines) are done all the time at the entry level to maintain some emphasis on skill/ingenuity over money. I don't see why it wouldn't work for BR, too.

But, honestly, BR strikes me as one of the least expensive high-tech sports there is. You can basically buy the shooting equivalent of a lightly-used Formula 1 car or unlimited hydro for $2000-$3000. That's a steal.

I guess if a rifle range had enough resources it could even rent out BR rifles to new shooters for $1-$2/shot, assuming that members would be willing to do some basic ammo production (in a world without tort lawyers). I mean, who among us wasn't hooked when they shot a group with their first real BR rifle?

Toby Bradshaw
baywingdb@comcast.net
 
It has been fun watching this post evolve from the start. A little realigning is needed though. Not that your ideas are not interesting but most have been tried before, The SER under the direction of Wilbur had a new shooter program back in the 90's and into the new century that provided all that a new competitor needed (On loan for the match). I think this was reasonably successful. But, The main point of my post is that we need better and more encompassing leadership that will renew the sport and give it new life. In my opinion our current elected officials are sailing a sinking ship, Oblivious to the conditions.
 
That is why we have very active Club Match Programs. This gives shooters a chance to compete, and win something against like minded shooters. If, and when, they decide to step up into Registered Competition, they will find both the NBRSA and IBS very accomadating.......jackie

This is EXACTLY what got me into it. I am still very new to the game. I happen to be on another forum, and my new friend Mr. Joe Duke said something that got me thinking. He said "and we have a factory class for those shooters who just like to compete". A few emails later, a trip to Houston was quickly planned. Since then, I have taken the dive, and bought a proven bench gun, and I shot my first 250 there in Tomball last month. The happiness I felt was AWESOME. I know I do not put in the time or money that the other guys do (it was obvious since my 250 landed me in 18th place). But I go to matches when I can, and I compete as best I can. I build relationships with those people that like to do what I like to so.

If it would not have been for a few guys taking the time to talk to me, I would still be shooting my 243 at coke cans claiming I was the next Quigley.

I have not been around for years like most of you guys, so I have not seen the decline. I imagine the decline in this sport is the same decline in all sports . I believe it’s directly associated with the decline of the competitive side of things. I coach baseball, and it kills me that our team won 3 of the 9 games we played, but we get trophies at the end of the year just like the team that beat us 12-2.
 
The kids are being taught that it is better to "feel good" than be a winner or loser.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top