Future of group shooting

The Cactus, Super Shoot, and Rattlesnake all have cash pots, or at least they used to. What happens? The guys who know they don't have a chance don't enter. So the pot gets smaller. Some of the best shooters do not like to shoot for money so they don't enter. Smaller pot.

I think the only way would be handicap each shooter but I don't know how you'd do that or who would want to do the paper work.

A little history. In the olden days there were some big cash pots for the winners. That led to some cheating. That's part of the reason for moving and stationary backers. Most of those old guys are gone now but it was interesting to hear the stories.

Ray
 
For most of the matches I have attended this year I would have made more money by just staying home than the payout would have been, even if I had won.

I guess I just fail to see the appeal of spending $150 on gas, $150 on two nights at a decent motel, $75 on ammo, and $40 on entry fee, plus driving 1500 miles, just for the CHANCE to WIN $200 at a match ;).

Now, for a little piece of fake wood, and some SOY points, I did that exact trip several times this year :D. Seriously though, shooting for money just seems to take some of the fun out of the match, but if that's what it takes..........????? Maybe I am just behind the times in my thinking :eek:.

I guess it's good that not everyone is as twisted in their priorities as I am ;):D:D:D.

Jim
 
But, Al and Ray, where is the dinaro (money) going to come from - will Uncle Sugar just print script and bestow it upon the local club officials? :eek::D:eek::p;) As Jerry S pointed out, trap shooters can afford the big payouts - they outnumber us at least two-to-one!:eek::D RG
 
Where I live, IPSC/USPSA and IDPA club matches attrack 40-60 shooters and there is a club match just about every weekend of the year in this area. CASS and Glock matches also attracts numerous shooters. None of these sports are particulary cheap to shoot. So far as easy, most of them are much harder, at least physically than BR, require as much or more practice, forcus and committment as BR. Also the sports themselves and the guns involved in these sports are perhaps more relevant that the rifles used in short range BR.

IPSC/USPSA and IDPA are growing. Group BR is shrinking.

Maybe the powers that be in BR, should stop patting themselves on the back about how tough it is to compete in BR, and how unique they are, and actually go out and try competing in some of the more popular shooting sports. See what these disciplines are doing and how they are doing it. Also see if what the other sports are doing may be more relevant to modern America and our modern culture, than current group.

At the rate it is going, if BR wants to survive for the another 10-15 years, the sport is going to have to make some significant changes.
 
from us!!!

last yr i think we paid 90$$ at the crafish and had around 55 shooters. now gary really did go out of his way to get extremely good and large trophys but no wood is needed in this case. 40$ times 50 shooters is 2000$ per day to split up. trust me on this you will throw away the envelope the money comes in. but you could have blue ,red and yellow and white envelopes for 1,2,3, and4. and if a percentage was paid back to some of the shooters half way down the page they would not be dropping out as fast and more would return. heck even shoot factory class right along with it and drop back 4 or 5 tenths in the agg and pay them some too. add 10 factory guys and a few extra regulars and you are talking 70 shooters. 70 times 40$ is 2800 per day or 5600$ in a week end. pay about half to the top shooters and the rest to the other divisions. get a 400 dollar donation or sponsor and ya got 6000$

if half was to the top shooters and 30 percent to the 2nd division and 20 percent to factory or third division a lot more folks would return to shoot.

lets see here- 3000 per day and 20% of that is 600$ and if you give the winner of factory class [ or third division] half of that - not bad. and if he brings a buddy next time -priceless.



a guy in factory that gets back a hundred will brag for a month how he won money against tony and in a year he will have a full blown rig to boot. give him a picture frame to hang the envlope in if he wants it.

the trickle down to the cottage industry would be huge.
 
At our Club Matches at Tomball, we have exactly what you are talking about. There is a true Factory Class, where you can do nothing to the Rifle aside from bedding it and adjusting the trigger. We have a Modified Class that is supposed to represent a shooter taking a Factory Action, and doing what so many do, turning it into a true Custom, capable of accuracy darned near at the Benchrest Level. Then we have a Benchrest Class, which, for all purposes, has no restrictions. If you can get it on the bench, you can shoot it.

Surprisingly, the lowest attendance is in the Modified Class. I don't know why. The Factory Class has three times as many show up. The Benchrest Class is by far the biggest.

All are very competitive, shooters tend to want to win, (or shoot their best), no matter whether a match is sanctioned, or not. We even have some personal rivalries developing. It ain't the Super Shoot, but don't tell these Guys.

I still maintain that Club Match Programs, such as what we have at Tomball, is the breeding ground for those that are interested in Extreme Accuracy Shooting. Shooters can come out, give it a try, and see if the bug bites BEFORE they spend the Kid's college money on that new Rifle........jackie

Right there is one problem. Why isn't a club match regristered? If you follow the rule book, and have a certified range officer, then a club match score should count as much as the same score shot at a regional match, such as the Bluebonnet or Buffalo, or even the nationals. In other shooting sports' a score shot in a club match counts the same as if it was shot at the regional or area matchs, as long as you have real range officers and follow the rule book in shooting the match.
 
Truer words where never spoken about this subject. Costs don't go up for one area of this sport, they go up by leaps and bounds across the entire range of associated costs. BR is truly the best sport you can do with your clothes on. It is just one of the most expensive. The way this economy is headed I would be unsurprised to see it anywhere near the level it is today.

The cost of an IPSC/USPSA unlimited pistol is 2-3K$, a limited gun can set you back about 2K. Production, Limited 10 and single stack guns run betwee $600 and 1.5K. These guys shoot 150+ rounds per match, so reloading costs probably exceed BR. When you add the price of a tricked out AR15 or
M1A1, and a tricked out shotgun for 3 gun matches you have a lot more $$ invested than in a typical BR rig which only requires one rifle to shot all 4 classes. IPSC/USPSA has about 23,000 members. NBRSA has 1300?? It ain't just the cost to play the game that keeps people away from BR. Its the way the game is played.
 
As an outsider looking in, and considering benchrest, I can tell you, it isn't the money for the equipment. See my earlier response.

- Phil
 
Bob

Our Club Matches are not registered because I want to keep the entry at just $15, that is a pretty good deal for getting to shoot an entire agg (plus a warmup) under Benchrest rules, or as close as possible while keeping the entire thing as informal as I can.

I pay for the Ribbons and Targets out of the entry fees, with some left over for the Club.

We do not use a target crew, each shooter picks up his own target after each 5 shot match, while the next relay hangs their target. So the cost of the target crew is "zero".

We also use the "buddy system" for scoring, two shooters get together and score each others target. If there is a question about a shot, I have my Reticle to acsertain the true value of the shot.

Plus, we shoot classes that are not recognized by any Sanctioning Body. This is also designed to attract shooters who just want to come out, shoot, and have a good time. We have plenty of Registered Competition for those that want that venue.

Remember, the idea is to give shooters a place to shoot, in a Benchrest inviroment, with as little of the intimidation and hassle as possible, while still getting the "feel" of Competition. I think it is working quite well.........jackie
 
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I'll say it again

It seems that some have glossed over my earlier post and I think it's worth a bit more consideration. I ain't whining over the lack of attention, but it's a clean concept used world wide. You may recognize the concept under the name of "Cause Analysis". Here it is again....

We had it good

Something changed

We don't have it so good anymore.

Well Hell...WHAT CHANGED?
_________________________________

I'll also say again that membership numbers and match attendance numbers are completely separate deals. We need attendance or the host ranges will quit. If we all bought our neighbor a membership tomorrow the membership would double but attendance would stay the same.
 
In a word

Evolution. The equipment has evolved to the highest level, the cost to participate has went up considerably, and the ability of the shooters that are competing has steadily gotten better. As with evolution of anything, something got left behind. Shooters with less experience and modest budgets cannot keep pace, so they fall by the wayside.

Some will try to compete the best they can, but eventually reality sets in and they can make one of 2 choices. Accept their limitations and shoot for the fun of it anyway, or just quit.

I'm not even close to being a competitive shooter, but I have been involved in the auto racing industry most of my life and have seen the same thing happen over and over. If someone feels there is no chance for him/her to compete, their days in the sport are numbered.

There needs to be a division not only of equipment used, but also of skill of the shooter. Trying to compete with someone who has a 20 year head-start on you can be a little overwhelming to say the least.

In short, the new competitor needs to be accommodated or there wont be any.

The noobs aren't going to hang around and get thrashed every week by the seasoned experts.

There are some clubs that are doing things like factory classes and such to help things out and I'm sure that their efforts are appreciated by everyone involved.

Just my .02
 
How do we handle this

Suppose a division of skill were established. How would we handle the situation there at Rachels Glen a few days ago where 13 year old Hunter Talley won the HV200 by quite a margin. Would we award him 1st place in some lesser class and another 1st for the "top fuel" shooter?
 
If there were a division of pro/amateur or something like that...yes. It happens that a novice shooter will have a great day, but over the course of the year most likely they will not run at the top of the list until they have a few more years under their belt. If that shooters skill proved to be above the "amateur" ranking they could move up to the "pro" level.

I used to bowl cometitively when I was in high school. I shot many games that wouldn't register on a pro level, but there were a few times that my games or series would have been competitive in a televised match...just not over the length of a season.

I run my matches with run watcha brung as my motto...a class for everyone (though rimfire is lumped in with the factory class). If the word "registered" is intimidating their are club matches which have less perceived pressure, and maybe will inspire some to try their hand at the next "level" if you will.
 
addressing a novice

one way to help new shooters is to use the best agg of the day or weight class as the benchmark. if the new or young shooter has the best agg that is the score everybody else was shooting at. now lets say he shot a .2000 agg. you could drop down in the agg to .2500 or .3000 to pay a second division. factory or third division could be around .4000 or .4500 to start the payout. get out some match reports and figure out where most of these numbers fall.

this number is flexible and changes each day with conditions and the level of competetion. if Hunter has the best score he gets the cash and if the new guy has a bad day he still has a chance to win some today and shoot better tomorrow. incentive to move up is always there. more money at the top.

it is the new and middle of the pack shooter that has some reason to stay around that benifits here. they are most likely to leave if they dont see some kind of results for their toils.

glen is in the minority it think. he will be there just smell burnt powder few others feel that way.

guys at the top want to win but if only 18 show up are you really as happy as if 40 show up? would you rather beat 18 or 40 others?
 
future of group shooting

Interesting { i have seen this go full circle so far]
Since the ZERO Group was shot a while ago. There is less incentive for people to shoot that record group. Now it's agg shooting.
If you drop One shot your down farther in the pack.
It's just tougher today. Many top shooters are shooting every day.
Mr B does . It's gone the way of pro golfing.
Some people are makeing a job out of winning.
I guess you would call them professional shooters.
It's what they DO.
Now the new person has a high hurtle to jump just to play the game.
I think it took some of the fun out of the game.
 
This is an interesting post and some great points have been made. In St. Johnsbury, we decided after several years of great egg shoots to take it up to the competitive BR level. We joined IBS and started having score matches in 2005. Here's a few of my observations:

1. At the very first match, with great support from the ME/NH shooters, we had 18 shooters. We were total neophytes who had never even been to a BR match. On the range that day were several members of the BR Hall of Fame, past National Champions and some darned good shooters. For me, it was the equivalent of building a race car for the local short-track and getting there to find Richard Petty, Bobby Allison and Dale Earnhardt in the line-up. The down side is that it's quite overwhelming for a new shooter. The upside is that the guys are helpful, willing to share and very accommodating to new shooters, plus finishing 7th in a line-up like that is something to be proud of.

2. "We have found the problem and it is us" (or something close to that!) ... benchrest is not the problem, the "new America" is the problem. IMHO we have raised up a noncompetitive video-game generation who has been "dumbed down" all the way through their lives and even when they have failed it was equated to them as success. I have been told there is a measure before the Little League board to do away with All-Star games because of the stigma against the poor chaps who don't make the team! There is the problem. Some of the lower levels of kids' sports do not record the scores so the poor little future world leaders won't have to deal with the concept of not winning (can't use the word "lose"). I have dozens of shooters at my range, most of whom have hunting rifles that will group a 1/4" all day long (!), who turn up their nose at the prospect of shooting competitvely because, quite frankly, their egos cannot face the prospect of not winning the first match they enter.

3. Although money is a serious consideration to me as a low-life retired blue-collar worker, my neighbors have dooryards full of $7,000 snowmobiles, $25,000 motorcycles and a whole assortment of campers and motorhomes that cost more than my house and vehicles combined. For the price some guys pay for an "elk rifle" they could get two good BR rigs and all the associated gadgets. Competing at the highest level of any sport can never be regulated down to a point of not being expensive. Cameras, ham radios, skeet, trap ... anyone of these done at a high level costs as much or more than BR.

4. I have long been a proponent of factory class shooting at BR matches. It is a good place to get introduced to BR shooting, get the hang of "bench etiquette" and get good ideas about where your interests lie. We had a factory class shooter all season this year and he already has his new VFS rig started for next year. At our last match he put up a 250/9 at 100 to tie the HBR winner and beat all other HBR and VH shooters. He's going to be a great addition to BR.

In summary, I don't see much that can be done to BR to make it more user friendly. It's the best of the best and if one isn't willing to do what it takes or spend what is necessary, I'm not sure what we could gain by encouraging them to participate. No matter how much we spend for our equipment or how anal our loading habits, the final score is our desire to compete against other shooters and/or ourselves to do the best we can do. There isn't any rule or regulation for that. My opinion on shooting for money is that it would be the end of BR. The color of money changes everything.

Have a great winter and God bless, ReedG
 
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future of group shooting

I see where your going with this one on the hunter class.
Good points.
That was always the starter or introduction to shooting off the stool.
The intent of hunter class was to get new people introduced to the games played.
Hunter is a fun sport, and factory class makes it even more fun,
Here lies one small problem though
There are several factory rifles that come as modified factory rifles.
IE tompson ENCORE with a custom barrel.
So to make it level in the playing field what would you propose on this one?. The original was about 7 lbs and a 6 power scope.

The game has changes so much that the hunter class is nothing more then a benchrest rifle shooting score.
I too would like to see a factory rifle with a 6 x scope
 
Suppose a division of skill were established. How would we handle the situation there at Rachels Glen a few days ago where 13 year old Hunter Talley won the HV200 by quite a margin. Would we award him 1st place in some lesser class and another 1st for the "top fuel" shooter?

If he were entered in an Ametuer class, then yes. His group wouldnt count against the Advanced shooter's score's.

If a level of skill were established, the age of the shooter wouldnt make any difference. A young shooter with the proper instruction and practice could be a very good shooter, and their skill would place them in a different class to start with. There would be a standard, and I dont know what it would be, of a certain level of ability, say, reaching a consistent .2500 agg, for instance over 10 matches.

In a time where the number of shooters is on the low side, splitting them up into different classes may sound odd and counterproductive, but if at year's end more people are shooting, you will start to see the benefits for the future.
 
Very well stated Reed

This is an interesting post and some great points have been made. In St. Johnsbury, we decided after several years of great egg shoots to take it up to the competitive BR level. We joined IBS and started having score matches in 2005. Here's a few of my observations:

1. At the very first match, with great support from the ME/NH shooters, we had 18 shooters. We were total neophytes who had never even been to a BR match. On the range that day were several members of the BR Hall of Fame, past National Champions and some darned good shooters. For me, it was the equivalent of building a race car for the local short-track and getting there to find Richard Petty, Bobby Allison and Dale Earnhardt in the line-up. The down side is that it's quite overwhelming for a new shooter. The upside is that the guys are helpful, willing to share and very accommodating to new shooters, plus finishing 7th in a line-up like that is something to be proud of.

2. "We have found the problem and it is us" (or something close to that!) ... benchrest is not the problem, the "new America" is the problem. IMHO we have raised up a noncompetitive video-game generation who has been "dumbed down" all the way through their lives and even when they have failed it was equated to them as success. I have been told there is a measure before the Little League board to do away with All-Star games because of the stigma against the poor chaps who don't make the team! There is the problem. Some of the lower levels of kids' sports do not record the scores so the poor little future world leaders won't have to deal with the concept of not winning (can't use the word "lose"). I have dozens of shooters at my range, most of whom have hunting rifles that will group a 1/4" all day long (!), who turn up their nose at the prospect of shooting competitvely because, quite frankly, their egos cannot face the prospect of not winning the first match they enter.

3. Although money is a serious consideration to me as a low-life retired blue-collar worker, my neighbors have dooryards full of $7,000 snowmobiles, $25,000 motorcycles and a whole assortment of campers and motorhomes that cost more than my house and vehicles combined. For the price some guys pay for an "elk rifle" they could get two good BR rigs and all the associated gadgets. Competing at the highest level of any sport can never be regulated down to a point of not being expensive. Cameras, ham radios, skeet, trap ... anyone of these done at a high level costs as much or more than BR.

4. I have long been a proponent of factory class shooting at BR matches. It is a good place to get introduced to BR shooting, get the hang of "bench etiquette" and get good ideas about where your interests lie. We had a factory class shooter all season this year and he already has his new VFS rig started for next year. At our last match he put up a 250/9 at 100 to tie the HBR winner and beat all other HBR and VH shooters. He's going to be a great addition to BR.

In summary, I don't see much that can be done to BR to make it more user friendly. It's the best of the best and if one isn't willing to do what it takes or spend what is necessary, I'm not sure what we could gain by encouraging them to participate. No matter how much we spend for our equipment or how anal our loading habits, the final score is our desire to compete against other shooters and/or ourselves to do the best we can do. There isn't any rule or regulation for that. My opinion on shooting for money is that it would be the end of BR. The color of money changes everything.

Have a great winter and God bless, ReedG



I agreee with you totally. I use to be a proponent of the "Classes" in Benchrest but we allready have it in IBS, the Rookie Class. We see young fellows beat us all the time but they become Mortals after a time, like all the rest of us. I think we might help ourselves by promoting our sport more in the form of notices pinned up in places shooters are likely to frequent. Other than that, what more can be done?
 
future of group shooting

Maybe it has to be promoted more at the Club level.
With some help from the organizations we could have small
Schools to introduce it to new shooters.
A benchrest primer should be printed with no BS
Teaching aids could be local shooter,s equipment.
Advance benchrest handloading would be the starter.
 
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