P
Phil3
Guest
Precisely why I have not entered the sport. - Phil
ReedG,
Fantastic post. Saved me a lot of typing. Kudos.
Anyway, most on here that travel and shoot BR know who I am. Especially from here at BRC. Almost every match, two or three people come up and ask me if I'm Hovis from BRC. Sometimes that doesn't seem like a good thing from the looks on their faces....oh well.
The point I want to bring up with that is BR has more exposure now than ever, mainly because of the internet. When I first got interested in BR, it took me years to find a contact that could help me out and point me in the right direction (thank you, Fred Sinclair). So why is group shooting and BR in general getting smaller? ReedG made a lot of valid points. To many want to complain about not winning and make excuses for themselves. Most of these poeple do not want to put in the quality time and effort to get good. Larry Bird is a quality example of making something of himself with hard work. But this applies to those who are competitive and want to win. Then you have the group that just loves shooting BR, it's fun, and it makes them very little difference where they finish. It takes both of these groups to make BR work.
From talking to probably hundreds over the last couple of years. Learning history about the game. Speaking to some that no longer shoot because of aging eyes, or other physical limits. I have found one thing that seems to have changed the most. It's not the cost. I can build a gun now for only a couple of hundred more dollars than the first custom I had built in 1996. The best shooting gun I ever had was a HV sleeved 700 that I paid 840.00 for. Wish I had kept that one. So what is it??? RANGES....so many rural ranges have closed that most potential shooters just have to travel to far. It's simple, look at the areas that have more ranges (that can shoot BR)....you have more shooters, and more new shooters come from there. It's hard to get a new person to shoot when he has to travel five hours to a range that holds a BR match. And there is something about shooting with those you know, it gives a person a little more comfort (maybe due to the lack of feeling that you have to impress someone), to relax, enjoy, and develope shooting skills. Also, a person can receive more one on one help and guidance. I think what Jackie is doing, and what others have similiarly done around the country is exactly what it takes to bring more people into BR. But if there is no range....there is no chance. Maybe the NBRSA, and the IBS should turn to the NSSF and NRA for help in developing and building of ranges in areas that can expand all the shooting sports. Heck, we have enough lawyers, engineers, and construction workers/contractors on this site to help with the design, liabilities and construction of ranges on private properties or otherwise. I have seen people argue the charatoristics of barrel vibrations and hundreds of other things. But I have yet to see all this expertise put something on this forum about benches for BR, construction of a range and many other areas of concern. So I throw that out there.... Ranges...one of a few reasons.
Hovis
Fantastic post. Saved me a lot of typing. Kudos.
Anyway, most on here that travel and shoot BR know who I am. Especially from here at BRC. Almost every match, two or three people come up and ask me if I'm Hovis from BRC. Sometimes that doesn't seem like a good thing from the looks on their faces....oh well.
The point I want to bring up with that is BR has more exposure now than ever, mainly because of the internet. When I first got interested in BR, it took me years to find a contact that could help me out and point me in the right direction (thank you, Fred Sinclair). So why is group shooting and BR in general getting smaller? ReedG made a lot of valid points. To many want to complain about not winning and make excuses for themselves. Most of these poeple do not want to put in the quality time and effort to get good. Larry Bird is a quality example of making something of himself with hard work. But this applies to those who are competitive and want to win. Then you have the group that just loves shooting BR, it's fun, and it makes them very little difference where they finish. It takes both of these groups to make BR work.
From talking to probably hundreds over the last couple of years. Learning history about the game. Speaking to some that no longer shoot because of aging eyes, or other physical limits. I have found one thing that seems to have changed the most. It's not the cost. I can build a gun now for only a couple of hundred more dollars than the first custom I had built in 1996. The best shooting gun I ever had was a HV sleeved 700 that I paid 840.00 for. Wish I had kept that one. So what is it??? RANGES....so many rural ranges have closed that most potential shooters just have to travel to far. It's simple, look at the areas that have more ranges (that can shoot BR)....you have more shooters, and more new shooters come from there. It's hard to get a new person to shoot when he has to travel five hours to a range that holds a BR match. And there is something about shooting with those you know, it gives a person a little more comfort (maybe due to the lack of feeling that you have to impress someone), to relax, enjoy, and develope shooting skills. Also, a person can receive more one on one help and guidance. I think what Jackie is doing, and what others have similiarly done around the country is exactly what it takes to bring more people into BR. But if there is no range....there is no chance. Maybe the NBRSA, and the IBS should turn to the NSSF and NRA for help in developing and building of ranges in areas that can expand all the shooting sports. Heck, we have enough lawyers, engineers, and construction workers/contractors on this site to help with the design, liabilities and construction of ranges on private properties or otherwise. I have seen people argue the charatoristics of barrel vibrations and hundreds of other things. But I have yet to see all this expertise put something on this forum about benches for BR, construction of a range and many other areas of concern. So I throw that out there.... Ranges...one of a few reasons.
Hovis
G
Gerry
Guest
future of group shooting
Hovis Sorry i don't know what area your from.
That said there is a range that could open if they had someone interested in taking care of it . The range is in PA.
Ready to go with some maintance for benchrest matches.
Keeping a Range open is no small chore either.
It's one thing to build it and entirely another to keep it up.
Benchrest matches require a lot of work and a lot of help.
It takes at least a month to get ready for a group match and that's with enough help. Hunter class matches are a lot easier to run too.
I do believe that the future of benchrest is in the hands of the club Members and the attitude of clubs about Benchrest in general.
Some clubs don't want matches . They either don't have the help or would rather have other informal shooting events to keep their clubs going.
Basicly what i am saying is this
It's up to each and everyone of us to promote the sport.
It doesn't make any differance which type of benchrest shooting
short range, long range, hunter class .
Hovis Sorry i don't know what area your from.
That said there is a range that could open if they had someone interested in taking care of it . The range is in PA.
Ready to go with some maintance for benchrest matches.
Keeping a Range open is no small chore either.
It's one thing to build it and entirely another to keep it up.
Benchrest matches require a lot of work and a lot of help.
It takes at least a month to get ready for a group match and that's with enough help. Hunter class matches are a lot easier to run too.
I do believe that the future of benchrest is in the hands of the club Members and the attitude of clubs about Benchrest in general.
Some clubs don't want matches . They either don't have the help or would rather have other informal shooting events to keep their clubs going.
Basicly what i am saying is this
It's up to each and everyone of us to promote the sport.
It doesn't make any differance which type of benchrest shooting
short range, long range, hunter class .
M
MarkR
Guest
I'm the member of an old club...
And although benchrest isn't really in the picture yet...let me "splain" a few things. Our club is from the 40's, their catch phrase for membership is "we are a target shooting club and only a target shooting club" and when it was started up there were mostly smallbore (inside and outside) and pistol shooters of both persuasions. Membership in this club is more or less based on your word that you will be active in some shooting events of the club. Lately, membership has been waning as well as participation in the few events that we sponsor each year. 2 or 3 years ago sever members of another club and public range (about 35 miles away), started comming to membership meetings and joined the club. These gents enjoy mostly informal BR but some of them do compete in some matches pretty close to home.
I was at the range last weekenf doing some sighting in and load testing on my ole deuce mag as well as some of my deer rifles. After I was finished, one of if not the oldest member of the club (and one of the founders) came up to me as I was packing to leave and started up a comversation sbou yjr club and shooting at the range...he wanted to know if I would be interested in shooting in some informal, montly indoor smallbore matches if he could get them together. I replied that I had all of my equipment still around but that I hadn't even picked up the Anshutz for a lot of years, I then went on to explain that I'm 55, have diabetes and heart problems and that I knew that I couldn't be competitive any longer...well, I digress. He got a little irritated and said, well...I guess you just want to shoot off the bench with those other pains in the asses and shoot caves into the back stop! He saif that if he knew that all they were going tp do than he would have campaigned agaunst their membership... I was more than a little irritated but I knew that this conversation was comming.
In my humble opinion, the shooting sports have been changing at various rates for ever, and quite a lot in the past 20 years or so. If a club is to survive and grow, then the club must change with the sport to a certain extent. Start new types of matches and try things. Our range, with a little volunteer or otherwise bulldozer work and some grass seed, could be a very nice 40 point, 300 yd range, suitable for several disciplines. Most everything else is in place.
Any comments or advice on this subject would be appreciated either in the forum or by PM or email...
Thanks for sweating this long post....
Mark
And although benchrest isn't really in the picture yet...let me "splain" a few things. Our club is from the 40's, their catch phrase for membership is "we are a target shooting club and only a target shooting club" and when it was started up there were mostly smallbore (inside and outside) and pistol shooters of both persuasions. Membership in this club is more or less based on your word that you will be active in some shooting events of the club. Lately, membership has been waning as well as participation in the few events that we sponsor each year. 2 or 3 years ago sever members of another club and public range (about 35 miles away), started comming to membership meetings and joined the club. These gents enjoy mostly informal BR but some of them do compete in some matches pretty close to home.
I was at the range last weekenf doing some sighting in and load testing on my ole deuce mag as well as some of my deer rifles. After I was finished, one of if not the oldest member of the club (and one of the founders) came up to me as I was packing to leave and started up a comversation sbou yjr club and shooting at the range...he wanted to know if I would be interested in shooting in some informal, montly indoor smallbore matches if he could get them together. I replied that I had all of my equipment still around but that I hadn't even picked up the Anshutz for a lot of years, I then went on to explain that I'm 55, have diabetes and heart problems and that I knew that I couldn't be competitive any longer...well, I digress. He got a little irritated and said, well...I guess you just want to shoot off the bench with those other pains in the asses and shoot caves into the back stop! He saif that if he knew that all they were going tp do than he would have campaigned agaunst their membership... I was more than a little irritated but I knew that this conversation was comming.
In my humble opinion, the shooting sports have been changing at various rates for ever, and quite a lot in the past 20 years or so. If a club is to survive and grow, then the club must change with the sport to a certain extent. Start new types of matches and try things. Our range, with a little volunteer or otherwise bulldozer work and some grass seed, could be a very nice 40 point, 300 yd range, suitable for several disciplines. Most everything else is in place.
Any comments or advice on this subject would be appreciated either in the forum or by PM or email...
Thanks for sweating this long post....
Mark
Bill Wynne
Active member
I hope that I am not way off base here but I see that we need to keep the dull out of our sport. I shoot benchrest 22 (50/50) with a bunch of my friends. We are way out here in West Texas a long way from other clubs. Over the summer, we have noticed a slight decline in attendance in our matches.
We bought a bunch of 1/2 scale silhouette farm animals and we are holding offhand matches with targets being 40 yards to 100 yards with our 22s.
We are getting 18 to 20 shooters at the matches out of a core of about 30 shooters. Many of these people have not competed at any rifle sport in the past. It is easy for new shooters to join in. One thing about shooting offhand is that it doesn't take a highly tuned custom benchrest rig to play in this game. While this is not an easy sport, there is a feeling that first place cannot be bought with more expensive equipment. A rabbit gun that can shoot a 1" group at 50 yards will do. Of course a good trigger will help a lot.
My point is that we must get new shooters to come to our clubs and play or out clubs and our sports will go away.
Concho Bill
We bought a bunch of 1/2 scale silhouette farm animals and we are holding offhand matches with targets being 40 yards to 100 yards with our 22s.
We are getting 18 to 20 shooters at the matches out of a core of about 30 shooters. Many of these people have not competed at any rifle sport in the past. It is easy for new shooters to join in. One thing about shooting offhand is that it doesn't take a highly tuned custom benchrest rig to play in this game. While this is not an easy sport, there is a feeling that first place cannot be bought with more expensive equipment. A rabbit gun that can shoot a 1" group at 50 yards will do. Of course a good trigger will help a lot.
My point is that we must get new shooters to come to our clubs and play or out clubs and our sports will go away.
Concho Bill
G
Gerry
Guest
future of group shooting
You have a point bill
Right now we are talking benchrest though.
You could improve attendance with larger target in that ir 50/50
who saiid you have to use that target to play with?.
That basicly is a 50ft target that you shoot at 50yds .
Your asking a lot from a rifle in the 50/50.
You have a point bill
Right now we are talking benchrest though.
You could improve attendance with larger target in that ir 50/50
who saiid you have to use that target to play with?.
That basicly is a 50ft target that you shoot at 50yds .
Your asking a lot from a rifle in the 50/50.
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
What we need is a way to boost the self esteem of our barrels and ammunition. That way we would all be in first place every time wouldn't we??
R. G. Robinett
New member
Wilbur, haven't you ever stood before a group of your peers and suggested making someting MORE difficult?!!??
Such a thing seems to melt tar pretty rapidly, as feather pillows and rails become scarce! Been there, done that, got the burn marks . . . I think you're onto it - look at golf, where [almost] everyone can obtain a 'hanidcap' . . . then, still 'cheats' to break 100!
And, despite being a game which is not only more expensive, but also, an endevor in which it is MUCH more difficult to to achieve REAL proficiency, the parking lots are FULL - it's got to be the handicap . . . doesn't it?? RG
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B
bob harrison
Guest
In the immediate San Antonio area there somewhere around 18 golf courses, and they think there may be room for a couple of more. From talking to my friends that play, golf ain't cheap, but a whole heap of people play, or want to play it.
You could count the number of shooting ranges on one hand, and some of them probably won't be around in 10 years.
The sport of golf must being doing something that people like. What?
You could count the number of shooting ranges on one hand, and some of them probably won't be around in 10 years.
The sport of golf must being doing something that people like. What?
D
Dave Short
Guest
Wilbur, haven't you ever stood before a group of your peers and suggested making someting MORE difficult?!!??
I think you're onto it - look at golf, where [almost] everyone get can obtain a 'hanidcap' . . . then, still 'cheats' to break 100!
Hi Randy,
I think you're spot-on. This subject has come up countless times, and there have been a lot of good observations made. Your entire post looks like the "It" that everyone has been looking for. Now.............what can be done to improve membership and attendance, considering the facts that: Many of the current shooters don't want to see anything change, and likely even fewer (myself included) want to see a handicap system adopted?
-Dave
G
Gerry
Guest
future of group shooting
Wilber;
Lets look at this as to getting more shooters'
This is the prospective that i'm looking at.
Ok (IR 50/50 is fun and great to shoot. I do some myself. Of couse i have the equipment also. That's because i can afford it .
That aside Lets get some new shooters.
One way is to have a scrub league with a different target that just about any one can shoot with their cheap 22,s
IE !0/22 or a marlin etc"
It's one way to get new shooters playing a game.
After a while you will see them trying to shoot better and better each time.
Eventually they will upgrade to a more expensive rifle or build on their existing platform. .
Maybe they will advance maybe they will quit . But at least they will have been exposed to some really fine people shooting great firearms.
Iv'e seen it happen more then once.
New guys starting out with inexpensive equipment and then going for the really good equipment.
The object is to have the average person see just how much fun
there is even in informal leagues
Wilber;
Lets look at this as to getting more shooters'
This is the prospective that i'm looking at.
Ok (IR 50/50 is fun and great to shoot. I do some myself. Of couse i have the equipment also. That's because i can afford it .
That aside Lets get some new shooters.
One way is to have a scrub league with a different target that just about any one can shoot with their cheap 22,s
IE !0/22 or a marlin etc"
It's one way to get new shooters playing a game.
After a while you will see them trying to shoot better and better each time.
Eventually they will upgrade to a more expensive rifle or build on their existing platform. .
Maybe they will advance maybe they will quit . But at least they will have been exposed to some really fine people shooting great firearms.
Iv'e seen it happen more then once.
New guys starting out with inexpensive equipment and then going for the really good equipment.
The object is to have the average person see just how much fun
there is even in informal leagues
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Hi Randy,
I think you're spot-on. This subject has come up countless times, and there have been a lot of good observations made. Your entire post looks like the "It" that everyone has been looking for. Now.............what can be done to improve membership and attendance, considering the facts that: Many of the current shooters don't want to see anything change, and likely even fewer (myself included) want to see a handicap system adopted?-Dave
But, Al and Ray, where is the dinaro (money) going to come from - will Uncle Sugar just print script and bestow it upon the local club officials?
To add a bit to my earlier post, I think we're at a point where we need to do two things:
a. Keep the shooters we have now...don't let the numbers keep dropping.
b. Find a way of encouraging new people into the sport.
For part a.- Shooting for decent prize money will, I believe, encourage people to continue their participation. It doesn't have to be the kind of money so a person can make a living at BR shooting, but enough to take the edge off when you do well. A modest increase in entry fees could be used to finance the 'pot'. And we have a lot of generous mfgs. that are really good about donating products...maybe instead of product, they could make their donations in the form of cash? If a mfg. donates a gift cert. for a product worth $250, there's some upside for them to donate a smaller amount of cash instead. If a company makes a $250 product and makes $100 profit on it, maybe they'd rather donate $50 cash, instead?
For part b.- We can all do what we can as individuals to encourage newcomers. But if the IBS and NBRSA really want to grow their numbers, it needs to happen from the top down. There are a lot of ways to make an Entry Level BR class work, but it would take a combined, concerted effort of both organizations...along with some exposure in the 'normal' shooting press publications...to make it happen.
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Wilbur, haven't you ever stood before a group of your peers and suggested making someting MORE difficult?!!??
"Get out 'yer book. Write his name down. Now....draw a line through it!"
sbindy
Steve B
sbindy
Steve B
Many of the current shooters don't want to see anything change, and likely even fewer (myself included) want to see a handicap system adopted?
-Dave
If an Amateur class is implemented, nothing has to change for the current shooters. They will be in the advanced shooters class. Once the Amateur shooters reach a level of proficiency, by setting a standard for scores in registered matches, then they will be classified as advanced and move up.
There aren't any other sports that expect the rank novice to jump in and compete with the experts the first time out. Some of the experts say "sink or swim" and you see how well thats working out.
Putting everyone in the same shark tank and seeing who can swim fast enough to survive isn't working.
G
Gerry
Guest
future of group shooting
I think what your suggesting is Classifications.
I have suggested this before.
Some of The current shooters don't like the idea.
But maybe it needs a look at.
It has been said we are a nitch shooting sport.
That's not NEWS it always has been.
We were referred to by many other shooting sports as being gun CRANKs
Gun Nut's who are on the edge.
Ive heard it in Many converstions.
Some one has suggest the NRA.
Unless things have changed there i doubt they would care.
Doc Garcelon was the first president of IBS and he couldn't get them to get envolved.
I think The Big Failure Is Recognition.
I think what your suggesting is Classifications.
I have suggested this before.
Some of The current shooters don't like the idea.
But maybe it needs a look at.
It has been said we are a nitch shooting sport.
That's not NEWS it always has been.
We were referred to by many other shooting sports as being gun CRANKs
Gun Nut's who are on the edge.
Ive heard it in Many converstions.
Some one has suggest the NRA.
Unless things have changed there i doubt they would care.
Doc Garcelon was the first president of IBS and he couldn't get them to get envolved.
I think The Big Failure Is Recognition.
Roger T
Member
Gerry's #63 post
I think was pretty accurate. Getting more promotion at a club level. Have a couple Fun shoots during the summer,with knowledgeable shooters to guide new PROSPECTS,have a BBQ .But you have to get people to the range to get them to shoot. Also alot of the country needs UPGRADES to their current range to even begin to try to hold a match Registered or not. As for Traveling to a distant range to shoot goes Gas, Drive time,getting Range schedules ,Paying Visitor fees etc. it all adds up for the average shooter so the local facility (range) is where they're most likley to shoot. Getting money to upgrade is a TOUGH job espescially in this economy. Do you think the Feds are gonna give all the ranges a stimulus package to upgrade I don't think so. I live in a small town POP 23,000 +- the money just isn't their for major upgrades. We have 2 benches @ 200 yd line 2 @ 100yd line 2 @ 50 yd line. It's a great club (people) but it's hard to get people to come out . We ran Fun shoots 22rf to Centerfire every 2 wks this past summer and we could only get 8-12 shooters a shoot (sometimes only 2-3). WHAT ELSE CAN WE DO ? GOT TO GET THEM OUT TO THE RANGE.
I think was pretty accurate. Getting more promotion at a club level. Have a couple Fun shoots during the summer,with knowledgeable shooters to guide new PROSPECTS,have a BBQ .But you have to get people to the range to get them to shoot. Also alot of the country needs UPGRADES to their current range to even begin to try to hold a match Registered or not. As for Traveling to a distant range to shoot goes Gas, Drive time,getting Range schedules ,Paying Visitor fees etc. it all adds up for the average shooter so the local facility (range) is where they're most likley to shoot. Getting money to upgrade is a TOUGH job espescially in this economy. Do you think the Feds are gonna give all the ranges a stimulus package to upgrade I don't think so. I live in a small town POP 23,000 +- the money just isn't their for major upgrades. We have 2 benches @ 200 yd line 2 @ 100yd line 2 @ 50 yd line. It's a great club (people) but it's hard to get people to come out . We ran Fun shoots 22rf to Centerfire every 2 wks this past summer and we could only get 8-12 shooters a shoot (sometimes only 2-3). WHAT ELSE CAN WE DO ? GOT TO GET THEM OUT TO THE RANGE.
R. G. Robinett
New member
Hi Randy,
I think you're spot-on. This subject has come up countless times, and there have been a lot of good observations made. Your entire post looks like the "It" that everyone has been looking for. Now.............what can be done to improve membership and attendance, considering the facts that: Many of the current shooters don't want to see anything change, and likely even fewer (myself included) want to see a handicap system adopted?
-Dave
Dave, I'm with you 100% - I don't believe in handicaps. Way back when I shot Handgun Shilouette, there were many classed, somewhat based upon ability . . . at the first tournament where I 'won' my class, I was, for a few seconds, somewhat proud.
Then, I realized that the guy I needed to emulate knocked over more animal shilouettes - now, THAT (his) accomplishment appeared to me to have been THE winning number. I don't consider myself a 'snob', just a barely competent guy who likes to shoot. But, when I shoot well enough to win, now that makes me feel as though I accomplished something . . . after that initial 'calss' winner trophy, I never accepted another - not unless my score was the best of the event, which was seldom. I just never did, and still, 'don't get' the classification thing.
I don't 'get' the prize money thing either - don't get me wrong, I love earning a signed $1.00 Bill from Ron Hoehn, or, one of my pals, or, better yet, a stack of their quarters . . but, I never shot for prize money, but rather for the joy of shootin' . . . Yes, when offered, I do, usually, enter the 'cash-option', but THAT's a different animal: it costs neither the club, nor the sanctioning Organization a penny . . . I've always worked for my $$$, so I guess I'd like to keep it that way, and shoot for recreation.
I won't pretend to have answers to the general decline - locally, we've experienced steady, if slow, growth - why is that?? Back when I was involved in organizing and administering registered BR events, we always offered a 'factory class' - THAT almost NEVER worked either . . . what really worked, was getting a REAL rifle in the hands of an interested, but skeptical prospect.
And prospects don't grow on the proverbial bushes - as someone pointed out earlier, BR, wether for group or, score, isn't for everyone: numerous of my friends, having fired a few decent groups through one of my rifles, state something like, "cool, what's it good for?" Then, they go right about contentedly shootin' their 'junk' . . and, by goly, they kill a LOT of game!
How do we recruit from THAT pool . . . yep, there I did it again - sounded just like a snob . . . RG
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