Clarification of new IBS Proposal SC#4

[Jim Wooten]

If one shooter HOGS the placings in a match, does one shooter alone gets SOY points? Say you were to place first and second, would there be no second place points awarded? Does the statistician step over the second placing and award second place points to third place and so on?

Pete,

Any placing by the additional rifle(s) means that those points do not get awarded under the present system. No shooters move up for points or placing.

As I stated in an earlier post, one shooter with three rifles in the same class could receive all 9 trophies in a grand agg match (if he placed first, second, and third), and the points for first place. NO POINTS would be awarded for second or third place to ANY shooter.

Shooters also do not move up for Precision Rifleman points if a shooter that placed ahead of them with multiple rifles bumped them out of the normally awarded positions.

Let me say that I shot two rifles several times this year. I shot a light varmint at times in 30 PPC or BR, and a 30PPC heavy varmint when I was experimenting with 30PPC. I also shot a second 30BR to use up some older loads that I wanted to empty for annealing. I seldom get to the range between matches, so I used the opportunity for "testing under match conditions". Now, I am FAR from a good shooter, but in some of those matches both rifles placed. I have to say that I had very mixed feelings about keeping some deserving shooter from points and placing. I can see how this could eventually keep some shooters from attending matches, if other shooters regularly get more than one trophy in a yardage or grand, and prevent them from getting SSOY points.

I have only been shooting Score for a bit less than three years, but I have noticed an interesting trend. In 2006 it took 46 points to get into the Top 20 for SSOY. In 2007 it took 38 points, but there was only one below 41 points. In 2008 it took 34 points, and there were five in the 30's. It would be pure speculation on my part, but I wonder if there is any relationship between the decreasing Top 20 point threshold and a possible increase in the number of top shooters shooting multiple rifles (meaning fewer points awarded to second or third places). I really have no idea, but it is food for thought.

I guess it shouldn't really matter to me, since I don't have the ability or the energy to chase Score Shooter of the Year. I didn't even make it to the maximum number of "record matches" this year due to several unexpected situations, and may attend even fewer in the upcoming year if the economy doesn't improve, but for someone working their way up the competitive ladder it might matter.

Jim

PS: I see that there has already been a clarification about the awarding of points. I type slow .

 

[Al Nyhus]

to a .30 and shoot Hunter class...where the real men stack their beer mugs...right Al?

Laffin' here, Greg... Actually, if it wasn't for the fact that I compete in NBRSA and IBS Hunter tournaments, my Hunter gun would be chambered in 30BR....it would be a Varmint Hunter class rig.

This is a good time to point out that in our hotly contested Two Gun Score tourneys out here, 'Terrible' Terry Meyer has kicked our behinds for the past two years at the IBS Iowa State Two Gun Score Championships using a 6PPC chambered Varmint Hunter gun for the 6X portion of the event and his 6PPC L.V. gun for the VFS portion. 'Hiz Terriblenezz' has proven time and again that great shooters ...not great cartridges...win tournaments. I remember this years event especially well as Terry slapped me to second place in the Two Gun by virtue of two X's.

So much for the 6PPC's not being competitive with the .30's....

 

[Pete Wass]

Changes could become effective

what am i gonna do with my 30 grendel vh gun i just got if they limit vh to 6mm?

a year or even two down the line so that all could be prepared and wear out what they have now. You could always re-chamber that barrel to a 30-44 or larger and shoot it in Hunter. Barrels, even though expensive aren't as expensive as bullets, for instance. 6 MM bullets are a lot less expensive than 30's; an added benefit.

Speaking of expensive bullets; the prices fpr scrap metal has TANKED. When can we expect the prices of bullets to receed?

 

[Al Nyhus]

longrange223: I think Greg was just joking around a bit. The 30 Grendel is a dandy case and will make a fine VH class gun. Best of luck with your adventure in 6 Power Land...it's a hoot!

 

[Pete Wass]

Speaking of xes - -

The current VH 100 Yd record is held by Joe Gilbert who shot a 250-23 with a6 PPC in 1993? I think it was. What Al said about shooters. Joe 's comment about it " I couldn't miss!"

 

[longrange223]

thanks al,hope to get a chance to enjoy it even if it is a little less manly! lol

 

[longrange223]

mwezell,wouldn't hesitate to put a bigger scope on the grendel & shoot it as a lv,had my march on it working up loads & it shoots every bit as good as my 30br,wouldn't feel undergunned at all

 

[Pete Wass]

Back before I went crazy

for RRR's. I had a lovely 30 BR VH rifle which I sold to a nice gentleman from the mis-west. It was probably the best shooting rifle I have owned to date. I would suspect some of those who wanted the limit on VH to be 6PPC now would not want to go back from the 30 BR's some of them have; can't say for sure though. It's an interesting concept to contemplate; LV and VH limited to 6 MM; agg them together for a 2 gun whilst the 30's agg together. The one thing that most humans abhor is CHANGE.

 

[Pete Wass]

I was wondering

How many LV's there are among those who reportedly don't shoot score any more because of the 30's? If we were to limit the LV class to 6mm or 6.5mm as Dave Short suggested,, how many of the old gang would we pull back? How may of you who shoot 30's in LV can go back to 6MM without a lot of work and expense? I think the Varmint Hunter rifles might have some work to deal with.

 

[Al Nyhus]

How many LV's there are among those who reportedly don't shoot score any more because of the 30's? If we were to limit the LV class to 6mm or 6.5mm as Dave Short suggested,, how many of the old gang would we pull back? How may of you who shoot 30's in LV can go back to 6MM without a lot of work and expense?

I fully support the idea of a seperate and distinct LV class in Varmint for Score. I just don't support the idea of a caliber restriction.

A perusal of P.S. magazine match reports for the late '90's early 00's show a lot of 22-23X scores shot by the 6PPC's as winning scores. So...where did all these guns and shooters go? Convert to the 30's? Quit? Playing golf or fishing now? I honestly don't know. It's not like a 22-23X gun isn't competitive. Sure, there are those days where a 250-24X doesn't get you into the Top 5. But not very many..and sure as heck not at every range and tournament, that's for sure.

Back when the LV for Score class looked like it was going to be a reality, quite a few of us, including myself, spent the money and time to build another gun for the 'soon to happen' class. Personally, I thought it would be a hoot to mix it up with the 6PPC's and 6BR's with my 30BR LV gun. Run Whatcha Brung....let's shoot and have fun, 'ya know?

But it never happened.

For all the cryin' that goes on about bringing guys back into the sport that supposedly left because of a percieved advantage of a certain chambering....I don't see anyone cryin' about the schmucks like me that spent $2500+ for a rig to show their support of a new class that never happened. Nor should anybody be cryin' for us..we knew it wasn't a done deal but wanted to show our support up front, is all.

The tail is waggin' the dog on this one.

Respectfully, Al

 

[Pete Wass]

Thanks Al

I don't disagree with anything you have said but I think we need to "smoke out" the notion that there is a big number for folks feeling left out. I do think scores have risen dramatically in VFS because of the 30's though. Sure, there were some 23's and 24 , even some 25's shot with 6's but not many; nothing like it is now. When I started in 99 it seems to me that people were winning with 18's and 19's with regularity. Perhaps the 30's gave more folks the confidence to try harder.

I think we are doing a good job of keeping this thread civil, lets keep at it.

 

[Dick Grosbier]

It will be interesting to see how this ends up at the winter meeting on the final vote, what we end up with. There are a lot of people shooting LV 30's that do not want to see a cal. limit. There are also a lot of VH 30BR's that will not be happy with a al limit.
all IBS 6 Power shooters might also want to take a long hard look at rolling VH back into Hunter where it came from in the first place this might give a more respectable total turnout . I know Gary Long of thee score committee feels this might be a way to build up 6 Power attendance.

Dick

 

[longrange223]

as someone new to 6x this year i was wondering why there are separate vh & hunter classes?

 

[Pete Wass]

It will be interesting to see how this ends up at the winter meeting on the final vote, what we end up with. There are a lot of people shooting LV 30's that do not want to see a cal. limit. There are also a lot of VH 30BR's that will not be happy with a al limit.
all IBS 6 Power shooters might also want to take a long hard look at rolling VH back into Hunter where it came from in the first place this might give a more respectable total turnout . I know Gary Long of thee score committee feels this might be a way to build up 6 Power attendance.

Dick

Seems to me that most of the new 6 power shooters have gone to the VH class, no? With the combining of the 6 power scores for SOY, the highest scores of the day are the ones that count so why roll them together? The competition is the scores achieved in the end. It isn't as if we were arm wrestling or shooting pool. There is no way to influence what the competition is doing. Having the two classes allows folks to shoot the 6PPC and other shorter cartridged rifles. If we end the class, well, you know.

Vermont has been awarding only one plack for the 6-x classes for a couple of years now, as I recall. It would be ok with me if all the venues did the same.

We discussed placks at our year end shoot in Orrington this year and someone suggested buying un-dated placks, that way a venue could pay them out according to the numbers of folks shooting. Say one week you have 3 shooters, only pay out one plack. If you have 5 shooters, perhaps pay out two and so on. This method would adjust the cost and competition thing plus make things a whole lot easier for the clubs.

 

[Dave Short]

I fully support the idea of a seperate and distinct LV class in Varmint for Score. I just don't support the idea of a caliber restriction.

A perusal of P.S. magazine match reports for the late '90's early 00's show a lot of 22-23X scores shot by the 6PPC's as winning scores. So...where did all these guns and shooters go? Convert to the 30's? Quit? Playing golf or fishing now? I honestly don't know. It's not like a 22-23X gun isn't competitive. Sure, there are those days where a 250-24X doesn't get you into the Top 5. But not very many..and sure as heck not at every range and tournament, that's for sure.

Back when the LV for Score class looked like it was going to be a reality, quite a few of us, including myself, spent the money and time to build another gun for the 'soon to happen' class. Personally, I thought it would be a hoot to mix it up with the 6PPC's and 6BR's with my 30BR LV gun. Run Whatcha Brung....let's shoot and have fun, 'ya know?

But it never happened.

For all the cryin' that goes on about bringing guys back into the sport that supposedly left because of a percieved advantage of a certain chambering....I don't see anyone cryin' about the schmucks like me that spent $2500+ for a rig to show their support of a new class that never happened. Nor should anybody be cryin' for us..we knew it wasn't a done deal but wanted to show our support up front, is all.

The tail is waggin' the dog on this one.

Respectfully, Al

Al,
Please take what I'm about to write at face value only, and know that it is said with the utmost respect.

Concerning your reference to match reports from when we were pretty much all shooting a 6mm: Best and average winning scores were 2 to 3 X's lower than in recent years. It still amazes me that the difference in bullet hole radius is being glossed over by some as irrelavent. We shoot at one size target, in one class, and score the best edge of the hole. The best edge of a .30 is "better" than the best edge of a 6mm. Try telling a devout group shooter that all targets, regardless of the caliber they're shot with are going to be measured with the same caliper.......I don't think you'll get a pleasant response. What is done in Score is no different...........except that the difference in diameter between the commonly used calibers in Score (.243/.308) is more than three times what it is in Group (.244/.243). Therefore, since group size would be effected by diameter, the difference is the full .019". Since best edge scoring is effected by radius, the difference is .032"......a very real amount, especially at 100 yards.

You mention having built a gun just for the "soon to be LV 30 class", so I guess you mean the "optional" one that was voted in last year? Al, I remember a pleasant and civil phone conversation with you 3 years ago about the possibility of a caliber restriction. You explained to me that you'd just finished a dedicated LV 30, and expressed a concern that it would be end up obsolete.......did you un-build it and build it again last year?

I do know exactly how you feel about having a rifle that you built for a Score class that isn't there.........I was left with 2 LV's and a HV when the 30 caught hold.

Al, I don't think you'll find that many of the shooters who carried the same LV 6PPC to both Group and Score matches care to even comment. The did exist, though.........In the MD-PA-NY area it was very common to see the same guys when shooting both disciplines. It isn't any longer, and the few you see have dedicated rifles for each game.

For the record, I don't intend on having a hand in seeing any rule changes through. I'll give my opinion, which we all have a right to do as active competitors and as members of the IBS. I'll sign a petition for a well-written change, and vote for the same.

-Dave-

 

[K Hope]

09 Schedule

When I look at the schedule for Score and then I look at the schedule for Group I say to myself; Score really has something going for itself. I also say to myself if only they had a LV 6 class (separate ) they would really have something.

To All a Good Season

Ken

 

[Al Nyhus]

Al,
Please take what I'm about to write at face value only, and know that it is said with the utmost respect.-Dave-

I understand, Dave. It's refreshing to be able to discuss things back and forth with people that have differing thoughts and ideas.

Concerning your reference to match reports from when we were pretty much all shooting a 6mm: Best and average winning scores were 2 to 3 X's lower than in recent years. It still amazes me that the difference in bullet hole radius is being glossed over by some as irrelavent. We shoot at one size target, in one class, and score the best edge of the hole. The best edge of a .30 is "better" than the best edge of a 6mm. Try telling a devout group shooter that all targets, regardless of the caliber they're shot with are going to be measured with the same caliper.......I don't think you'll get a pleasant response. What is done in Score is no different...........except that the difference in diameter between the commonly used calibers in Score (.243/.308) is more than three times what it is in Group (.244/.243). Therefore, since group size would be effected by diameter, the difference is the full .019". Since best edge scoring is effected by radius, the difference is .032"......a very real amount, especially at 100 yards.

How the Score game is played is determined by the rules. What you're really talking about is a complete change in the rules governing how targets are scored....and that's a totally different kettle of fish. I do find it interesting that people who castigate the 30 shooters over their 'on paper' scoring advantage aren't so quick to include the .22 cal. shooters in their arguments. If it's good for the goose it should be good for the gander, right?

You mention having built a gun just for the "soon to be LV 30 class", so I guess you mean the "optional" one that was voted in last year? Al, I remember a pleasant and civil phone conversation with you 3 years ago about the possibility of a caliber restriction. You explained to me that you'd just finished a dedicated LV 30, and expressed a concern that it would be end up obsolete.......did you un-build it and build it again last year?

Dave, I converted my original LV 30BR to a HV. My LV 30BR is a completely different rifle.

Al, I don't think you'll find that many of the shooters who carried the same LV 6PPC to both Group and Score matches care to even comment. The did exist, though.........In the MD-PA-NY area it was very common to see the same guys when shooting both disciplines. It isn't any longer, and the few you see have dedicated rifles for each game.

Dave, I don't doubt that you are 100% correct. I think what we're seeing is just the evolving specialization of the sport, don't you?

Always good to swap ideas with a gentleman such as yourself, Dave. Stay warm out there.

Respectfully, Al.

 

[Dave Short]

I do find it interesting that people who castigate the 30 shooters over their 'on paper' scoring advantage aren't so quick to include the .22 cal. shooters in their arguments.

Al, VFS was pretty much a 6mm game all along; the .22 was never really used by the "serious" competitor with a strong desire to win. Also, there is less that .010" difference in radius between the .22 and the 6mm.....again, there is .032" between the 6mm and the .30.

Dave, I don't doubt that you are 100% correct. I think what we're seeing is just the evolving specialization of the sport, don't you?

Al, I agree with you completely.........all processes evolve, whether by random chance (conditions resulting from a number of seemingly unrelated changes) or by the influence of a guiding force (deliberate and intentional). I think that the Score game would benefit by having a dedicated class, designed to accomodate existing rifles (and the competitors who own & shoot them) which have disappeared from IBS Score competition....the LV 6mm. If such a class were to be created, I would enter it at every opportunity for at least a few seasons, regardless of the level of participation, in order to support it and hopefully see it grow into a viable class. Over the past several years I've spoken with a number of shooters who I believe would do the same.

Always good to swap ideas with a gentleman such as yourself, Dave. Stay warm out there.

Respectfully, Al.

Thanks for the reply, Al. I appreciate that you present your views so clearly and thoughtfully.

-Dave-

 

[longrange223]

makes sense to me!

 

[Dave Short]

When I look at the schedule for Score and then I look at the schedule for Group I say to myself; Score really has something going for itself. I also say to myself if only they had a LV 6 class (separate ) they would really have something.

To All a Good Season

Ken

Yes, there is quite a number of Score Shooting opportunities available to us. It is also a good, albiet obvious, observation that a dedicated 6mm class would open up a lot of possibilities. One only has to consider for a moment (if they can open their mind) about the fact that there are loads of 6mm's out there.......guns currently used for group, guns used for score prior to the 30 coming into it's own in Score......it's pretty illogical to think that they just disappeared into thin air.

It is just as illogical to think that no one sees any disadvantage in shooting a small bullet against a big one............You'll have to look awfully hard to find a 6mm at a Score shoot these days. It sure isn't because a PPC won't hang with a BR on level ground (center-to-center), either. While it's true it is still possible to compete at 200 & 300 with a good 6, it is rare to even find it being attempted. As I recall, there was only one shooter who won with a 6 this season (an excellent shooter who could win while shooting a paper wad through a straw)........the other one or two who tried didn't even make a blip on the radar.

Keep thinking positive........Cool heads and sound reasoning may just prevail...

-Dave-