Clarification of new IBS Proposal SC#4

ron collins said:
There is one thing that no one is considering,.... Down south there are not as many shooters as there are up in the north, the aspect of only getting 1/2
points at a shoot is very real when only 8 or 9 shooters show up. The aspect of some shooters shooting two guns at the match gives those folks the same chance as the matches up north where there many more people that show up to shoot. When two or more shooters shoot the two guns then
the needed 10 shooters are considered for full points for a win. This needs to be taken into consideration for the folks down south are already at a disadvantage by the number of matches and state matches that are available
without traveling great distances just to be even. I believe that this new
rule would hinder even more the uneven playing field that already exist.
For those that think that shooting two guns of the same or different classes
is easy,they should consider that no two guns are alike, and when shooting two that your time on the range is full with no time to adjust loads, most of the time you have to come pre-loaded with the hope that it works. Another
point is that when shooting two guns that two fees are required, this gives the ranges more money to operate with. Some matches cannot be run when only 7-8 or 9 shooters show up, due to the fact that the range people cannot run these matches for free or for a loss. I have listened to all the people that say No we should be allowed to shoot two of the same class,
and most of them if not all are from areas where they do not have a problem
getting people on the weekends to shoot. Down here we have lost ranges due to the fact that Ranges have increased there fees to run due to not having enough shooters to make a profit or break even. The aspect of the
folks that have two guns makes the difference. I ask that before you people
make a ruling on this that you take a moment to think about this.
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There is not anyone saying that a person cant or shouldn't shoot 2 guns but he/she should have to pick which gun he wants for the record and the second gun shouldn't cost anyone else any points or a trophy as far as most of us are concerned shoot 10 guns if you want if you can afford it, but it should not cost the ones that don't have two guns or don't want to put the money into two guns for a share of the points if you choose to shoot two.
 
jackie schmidt said:
Ron, I am confused about something. Since you can now only recvieve points for one Rifle, regardless of how many you shoot, how would the ammendment affect the awarding of points at the end of the day??........jackie
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Doesn't want to pick one in case he has a bad day might be able to make up with the other one.
 
mwezell said:
Dick,

When is a shooter required to declare the gun that he wishes to count? The rule looks like I could drop a point on the first target and the first relay, and then pay for another gun to shoot in the next relay.---Mike Ezell

I know that's not what Hal said but maybe he's not perfect!:):)
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Mike,
Under the rule as it now stands your scenario is a possibility, if there is an opening on the next or a later relay and you can get it registered in time. Under the proposed rule change as written you will have to declare in advance which gun counts. In that scenario I do not see many people as wanting to shoot two heavies or two lights anyhow. My Gut feeling here and this is in no way an official statement of IBS Policy but I believe a Person will likely be allowed to shoot a light and a heavy and since they are up for different records there is no particular reason to let only one be elegible for records but SSOY & Precision Rifleman points are another matter. There is some advantage to shooting two guns and getting your best finish for points but declaring which rifle counts in advance for points is one more thing range personnel have to keep tabs on (just look at how many times rookies are not propery annotated in results already) for this reason I do not see the slight advantage the current system now offers as a very big deal.

At any rate the discussion at the winter meeting in Harrisburg later this month will possibly change many details of this proposed rule change as this happens with some regularity.

As to shooting a VFS and a Hunter or Var Htr. that situation is two totally different Guns two totally different classes and two totally different sets of SSOY Points. Prec Rifleman poins I am not sure about

Dick Grosbier
 
Dumb Question of the day

What is the problem with shooting 2 LV guns, declaring which is the light and which is the heavy before shooting...Or even shooting one LV Gun for both LVFS and HVFS. In my thinking then, both should count for any records and/or points as long as there is a declaration of which relay is which gun.

Geary Koglin
Grand Blanc, MI
 
Dick Grosbier said:
Donnie
Currently no matter how bad or good either rifle did the contestant gets the highest set of pointe he won only.

Dick
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I understand that you only get points for the highest scoring gun but I have seen the second gun keep a person from getting any points by it bumping them out of the top 3 or the top 10 in placement so they get no awards and as far as a man shooting two guns my hats off to him if he/she does well them great but it should be fair for everyone even people that can't afford two guns or that don't want to shoot two, Dick the only thing is that 99.9% of us want it to be the same for everyone as they have paid their money also.

Sorry about the backlash this has caused but this was meant in no disrespect to anyone JMHO, which to you older fellows from what I have seen if you voice one there are a few that want to hang you from the tallest tree.
Thank You,
Donnie Nash
 
Geary Koglin said:
What is the problem with shooting 2 LV guns, declaring which is the light and which is the heavy before shooting...Or even shooting one LV Gun for both LVFS and HVFS. In my thinking then, both should count for any records and/or points as long as there is a declaration of which relay is which gun.

Geary Koglin
Grand Blanc, MI
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Ok Geary one problem in scenarios you list is in IBS you cannot shoot the same gun twice in a class and VFS is one class. There has been a rule passed that allows shooting separate LVS and HVS aggregates, in that case you can shoot the same gun twice. Thats how in Group you can shoot a single 10.5 lb rifle in 4 aggregates to win the 3 or 4 gun.
Under the rules as they exist right now you can shoot two lights two heavy's or a light and a Heavy. Under the proposed rule if passed and a heavy and a light is allowed you can declare a light a heavy.

Just as you can declare a Hunter to be a Varmint Hunter.

Dick
 
Donnie Nash said:
I understand that you only get points for the highest scoring gun but I have seen the second gun keep a person from getting any points by it bumping them out of the top 3 or the top 10 in placement so they get no awards and as far as a man shooting two guns my hats off to him if he/she does well them great but it should be fair for everyone even people that can't afford two guns or that don't want to shoot two, Dick the only thing is that 99.9% of us want it to be the same for everyone as they have paid their money also.

Sorry about the backlash this has caused but this was meant in no disrespect to anyone JMHO, which to you older fellows from what I have seen if you voice one there are a few that want to hang you from the tallest tree.
Thank You,
Donnie Nash
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Donnie, Thats a very interesting point but I am not certain if you are right or wrong Gary Long keeps the SSOY points I know a second gun in VFS gets the shooter no extra points for his lower finish but I really do not know if points are moved up for the people who finished below him or not , I never thought about that one. Since score shooter of the year parameters are set up each year by the score committee that detail is in their hands I am not sure how it has been handled in the past and next years parameters have not yet been announced and it could be changed.

Dick
 
Dick Grosbier said:
Donnie, Thats a very interesting point but I am not certain if you are right or wrong Gary Long keeps the SSOY points I know a second gun in VFS gets the shooter no extra points for his lower finish but I really do not know if points are moved up for the people who finished below him or not , I never thought about that one. Since score shooter of the year parameters are set up each year by the score committee that detail is in their hands I am not sure how it has been handled in the past and next years parameters have not yet been announced and it could be changed.

Dick
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Under the present system the multiple gun shooter only gets points from the higher gun, but he does prevent the shooters below his other guns from moving up in points. He also gets the placing for the other guns, even though he did not receive SSOY points for them, so he would get any trophies involved with the placing of all rifles. Theoretically, if he shot three rifles, he could win all nine trophies from a Grand AGG match, and all the officially awarded points from that match, since no one else would receive any points for second and third places.

Jim
 
A significant number of us long term, loyal IBS competitors feel that a few simple changes would eliminate the need for more rules such as these, encourage more competitors to attend certain events and add more credence to the SSOY title.

I want to extend my thanks for all those that give freely of their time to serve on the various committees in both the IBS and the NBRSA. Your efforts are appreciated. :)

Good shootin'. :) -Al
 
2 guns or one

i can see the rational on both sides. the statement that you get more bang for the buck dosen't wash when your paying for both guns ( unless they are running a twofer special). the one problem i have seen occur, is when we have a short relay and have to run a separate relay for a two gun shooter, or a husband and wife using different rifles but the same benchrest equipment.
either circumstance makes for a long wait between relays and classes.
this isn,t huge but it causes a lot of grumbles and make a long day even longer when you have a lot of driving to do.
this my first input on this site but have read it for a long while. lot of good info
tnx
 
cliffie said:
the statement that you get more bang for the buck dosen't wash when your paying for both guns ( unless they are running a twofer special).
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The "bang for your buck" statement refers to getting twice the shooting for the all of the costs involved in attending the event, not the entry fee. Even if they didn't charge for the second gun (and they do), the match fees are insignificant compared to travel and lodging costs, time spent, etc.

-Dave-:)
 
Al Nyhus said:
A significant number of us long term, loyal IBS competitors feel that a few simple changes would eliminate the need for more rules such as these, encourage more competitors to attend certain events and add more credence to the SSOY title.
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Al, will you share what you believe those simple changes would be?

-Dave-:)
 
The only positive thing I believe can be attributed to shooting multiple guns in VFS is that it can push the number of competitors to the necessary 20 required to earn Precision Rifleman points.

The negative side of allowing 2 or more guns of the same class to be shot is that the shooter gets a second chance if he/she makes a mistake. When we have a smokin' gun and our head is in the game, it is often a matter of a single moment of lapse in judgement that costs us the win. One of the things that makes the game exciting is the fact that every shot counts. Why should it be okay that a shooter have a mulligan by vertue of entering the same contest twice? I don't persue the SSOY points, so I'll keep my comments pertaining to it to a minimum. I'll just say that we ought to consider that it should be a contest of who can outshoot who over the course of the year......without having to try and prevent others from placing well and earning points. As it is currently, one almost has to shoot 2 guns simply because others are doing it.

I don't see a reason to try to prevent a shooter from shooting a LVS and a HVS in the same match, only because we shoot both classes as VFS. I do, however, believe that shooting two guns in the same class is kind of like cheating, and is just "cheesy" .....and I will support a rule change to eliminate the practice.

-Dave-:)
 
jackie schmidt said:
Ron, I am confused about something. Since you can now only recvieve points for one Rifle, regardless of how many you shoot, how would the ammendment affect the awarding of points at the end of the day??........jackie
Click to expand...

As the rules are written now, either gun is eligible for for SSOY points. Whichever one finishes higher gets the points. This amendment would make it so only one gun would be eligible for points, or placing. So if your non "record" gun went out and won the match...it would get nothing.

Someone else asked about using 2 LV rifles, but designating one of them a HV, so they would each be recognized individually. How about this scenario...you shoot potential 10.5lb world record score with the rifle you have designated a HV. Guess what, no record for you. There's far more to all this than meets the eye, and it will be hashed out at the meeting I'm sure.

Jackie, you also mentioned that you would be voting on the agenda item. I assume that means you plan on attending the winter meeting in Harrisburg?
 
I sure hope this....

Hal D. said:
As the rules are written now, either gun is eligible for for SSOY points. Whichever one finishes higher gets the points. This amendment would make it so only one gun would be eligible for points, or placing. So if your non "record" gun went out and won the match...it would get nothing.

Someone else asked about using 2 LV rifles, but designating one of them a HV, so they would each be recognized individually. How about this scenario...you shoot potential 10.5lb world record score with the rifle you have designated a HV. Guess what, no record for you. There's far more to all this than meets the eye, and it will be hashed out at the meeting I'm sure.

Jackie, you also mentioned that you would be voting on the agenda item. I assume that means you plan on attending the winter meeting in Harrisburg?
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Means Jackie is attending!!!!. I would hate to think I would be the only free thinker there. Please come up from texas Jackie!!!

David
 
Dave Short said:
Al, will you share what you believe those simple changes would be? -Dave-:)
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Hi Dave. :) In the interest of this thread...maybe it's best not
to head off in that direction?

Best wishes in the New Year for you and yours, Dave. Hope we get together at a match somewhere this season. -Al
 
good question dave,how many people actually shoot two guns in the same class?
 
David Apple said:
Don't worry about anyone else, shoot better and it won't be an issue. :eek:
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Apple,
I'm not worried about anyone else...........If you look at my post, I said (as I've always told you) I'm not concerned with SSOY points.

As for shooting better, take your own advice: Don't worry about anyone else.....especially me.

Dave
 
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