Clarification of new IBS Proposal SC#4

[Pete Wass]

Question?

only get one set of points, if one gun wins and the other comes in second, only the top gun get SSOY points the other gun gets nothing.

If one shooter HOGS the placings in a match, does one shooter alone gets SOY points? Say you were to place first and second, would there be no second place points awarded? Does the statistician step over the second placing and award second place points to third place and so on?

 

[ron collins]

I still dont see

What the big deal is about shooting two guns of the same class, It is not like the people at the gun store says that you cant do it, the reason is because
the people that shoot two guns do it because they want to, they spend there money to buy the gun, Just becuase other people choose to spend there money on boats,or trips, or lawn mowers, they CHOOSE to spend there money elsewhere. To make folks bend to whats good for them is wrong.

 

[glp]

Hal..

I agree 100% and like competing against many, rather than few. As to the 6 power, it's obviously a very difficult game, and winning there must be very rewarding. I think that one of the toughest things to accomplish in Benchrest shooting is acquiring a Bronze level jacket, shooting only a 6X gun. The list of shooters to reach this goal is very short...

the ability to acquire a Bronze level PS jacket is tough and is dependent on 1) the ability and consistency of the shooter and 2) being in a geographic location where there is enough shooter concentration to very often meet the minimum number of shooters for PS points. That area includes where you live around VA and PA. Here in Maine, virtually never. Nonetheless, I take my hat off to anyone who can attain the goal.

 

[ron collins]

No

If one shooter HOGS the placings in a match, does one shooter alone gets SOY points. Say you were to place first and second, would there be no second place points awarded? Does the statistician step over the second placing and award second place points to third place and so on?

Gary Long takes care of that, he move the third place to second and give points to them. The only thing is that the shooter gets the first and second place trophy,,, But you still got outshot by both guns in two different relays in two different wind conditions. The best thing to do is beat the guy shooting the two guns and all this would go away.

 

[Pete Wass]

Mebby I am late in this but

how about Precision Rifleman points? are they awarded to the placings or is the shooter only allowed one set of points per match?

 

[Donnie Nash]

Gary Long takes care of that, he move the third place to second and give points to them. The only thing is that the shooter gets the first and second place trophy,,, But you still got outshot by both guns in two different relays in two different wind conditions. The best thing to do is beat the guy shooting the two guns and all this would go away.

Thats what this whole things about we don't care if you shoot 10 guns if you can afford to but it shouldn't be so the second gun cheats other people out of points if the shooter of two guns wind up in the top 3 or the top 10,I have seen this in more than one match,I'd be interested to see how many people shoot two guns if this rule goes through.

For the guys shooting that say their shooting the two guns for the reason of making required number of shooters to get the full amount of points or to get the (Precision Rifleman Points) I don't think this should change!!!!!!

BUT TO MAKE EVERYONE UNDERSTAND WHAT THIS THREAD WAS STARTED FOR WAS TO VOICE MY OPINION ABOUT PEOPLE HAVING TO DECLARE WHICH GUN THEIR GOING TO SHOOT FOR THE RECORD AND THEY ONLY WILL BE ABLE TO GET ONE TROPHY AND IF THEY FINISH IN THE TOP 3 OR TOP 10 THEY WON'T BE ABLE TO COLLECT ONE AWARD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THEY SHOULD HAVE BE BUMPED SO OTHER PEOPLE WILL BE ABLE TO GET SSOY POINTS IF YOU ARE GOING TO GET POINTS FOR ONE GUN THIS SHOULDN'T BOTHER THEM

 

[Donnie Nash]

If one shooter HOGS the placings in a match, does one shooter alone gets SOY points? Say you were to place first and second, would there be no second place points awarded? Does the statistician step over the second placing and award second place points to third place and so on?

Yes Pete that is what happens and that is what 99.9% of us wuold like to get changed .

 

[Donnie Nash]

What would be the best way to end this is to say that the rule is only one gun at a match. But does this include the folks that shoot one gun at 100- then shoot a different gun at 200.....can they still win the Agg?

Come on Ron you know that is not what that means don't try to make this something that it's not.

 

[Pete Wass]

Wellll

I think it's pretty hard to argue that one does not have a better chance of winning if they are allowed to shoot more than one rifle. Disregard the second and third places. If one has multiple chances to win first place, they are more likely to if they are permitted to shoot more than one rifle, assuming they are capable.

It's realy about multiple chances to win more than hogging the places. Having shot more than one rifle in two seperate classes for years, I almost always shoot one better then the other and the rifle shooting better will flip flop, more based on the cycle of conditions in relays than anything else, in my opinion. Some relays just give one better stuff to work with and consistently, throughout the day, from my experience.

If one want to shoot more than one rifle, shoot in another scope class or classes. We'd love to have the company and the hope of Precision Rifleman points.

 

[Hal D.]

A bunch of good points being made here. I still haven't made up my mind yet...I don't plan to shoot 2 guns of the same class next year, but I do want the ability to shoot a LV and a HV. Most agree that there should be no restriction in that regard. But it will still allow a shooter to have a crack at the win with 2 guns in the same class. This is why I would like to see the classes separated. I think it would bring more shooters to the matches, and also encourage some HFS shooters to bring their PPC's out of hiding.

Donnie, while you just asked for a clarification to begin with, I think this thread has brought about a great discussion. Lots of opinions out there, and there's nothing wrong with hashing some of this out online...Hal

 

[Donnie Nash]

A bunch of good points being made here. I still haven't made up my mind yet...I don't plan to shoot 2 guns of the same class next year, but I do want the ability to shoot a LV and a HV. Most agree that there should be no restriction in that regard. But it will still allow a shooter to have a crack at the win with 2 guns in the same class. This is why I would like to see the classes separated. I think it would bring more shooters to the matches, and also encourage some HFS shooters to bring their PPC's out of hiding.

Donnie, while you just asked for a clarification to begin with, I think this thread has brought about a great discussion. Lots of opinions out there, and there's nothing wrong with hashing some of this out online...Hal

Hal, Thanks this wasn't meant to degrade anyone or to cause any hard feelings but it was something I wanted to know.

 

[Dave Short]

This is why I would like to see the classes separated. I think it would bring more shooters to the matches, and also encourage some HFS shooters to bring their PPC's out of hiding.

Hal,
I don't know if you were shooting yet at the time, but about 3 years ago I wrote a rule change proposal to restrict the LVS to 6.5mm and seperate the classes. The intention was to encourage the LV 6mm shooters to come back out to some score shoots and not have to overcome the .30 bullet diameter advantage, while leaving room for experimentation (with a 6.5mm). I intended to show the proposal around to active shooters at matches in the spring, but (very inaccurate) word got out on the forums in January......Assumptions were made before it was even read......I was accused of everything short of bank robbery and 1st degree murder by some, and encouraged by others. I finally scrapped it because of all of the BS that went around over it. It eventually was reworded (I had zero involvement) and (loosely....w/no cal. restriction) became the "optional LVS bla bla bla" class that has not even been contested to date.

If (that's a big if) there were enough shooters to make 2 classes it would be a great idea to divide the classes. I don't think you'll draw any 6mm's though, unless there is a caliber restriction.........at least not at 100 yards. The reasoning that "We do it in the 6X classes" isn't convincing to me........There has been consideration for years of whether the VH class should even continue to exist. I think the LVS class would end up the same way, except that the LV shooters would just enter HV....just like we do now in VFS. Obviously the VH can't do the same and enter Hunter, because of the minimum capacity rule.

Lots of good food for thought.

-Dave-

 

[Randy J.]

Miss information

I asked Gary Long at the National whether a person placing with both guns would take points away from someone further down the list and his answer was yes. The reason I asked was because I was sitting in 11th place after the 200 yard agg of the Long Distance Nationals in Thurmont this past year and there were at least one shooter that had both guns in the top ten. Only the top ten get SSOY points. There may have been more than the one shooting two guns but I only needed one place so I didn't check how many. Let me repeat this because I have read several posts that state that a second gun doesn't take placings or points away. IT DOES! The second gun does not get any points but no one else gets them either. That placement is skipped. I can understand why as it must already be a nightmare for Gary to track all the data. Randy J.

 

[Curt N]

Lots of thoughts

so I might add mine as well. Shooting two guns so there is at least 10 shooters in a class is doesn't make sense. You get extra points for beating yourself. Duh.
The only unfair part I have seen as a range officer is if there are say 4 shooters who want to shoot two guns but there is only enough room in the relays being held for one or two to shoot two guns then it is unfair to the shooters who want to shoot two but can't. I have seen this situation in the past.
I know for a fact Hal didn't win because he shot two guns it was because he was practicing constantly and that made him extremely competitive. By the way Hal, Great shooting this past year. Its now 2009!!!! and we all have another shot at it. (if Hal Doesn't practice)
Curtis

 

[Donnie Nash]

I asked Gary Long at the National whether a person placing with both guns would take points away from someone further down the list and his answer was yes. The reason I asked was because I was sitting in 11th place after the 200 yard agg of the Long Distance Nationals in Thurmont this past year and there were at least one shooter that had both guns in the top ten. Only the top ten get SSOY points. There may have been more than the one shooting two guns but I only needed one place so I didn't check how many. Let me repeat this because I have read several posts that state that a second gun doesn't take placings or points away. IT DOES! The second gun does not get any points but no one else gets them either. That placement is skipped. I can understand why as it must already be a nightmare for Gary to track all the data. Randy J.

Thats what I've been saying and I've seen it happen to others and I say let people shoot 2 guns if they want but they should get placement at the match for the one they designate for the record.

 

[Pete Wass]

A bigger number of years ago

Hal,
I don't know if you were shooting yet at the time, but about 3 years ago I wrote a rule change proposal to restrict the LVS to 6.5mm and seperate the classes. The intention was to encourage the LV 6mm shooters to come back out to some score shoots and not have to overcome the .30 bullet diameter advantage, while leaving room for experimentation (with a 6.5mm). I intended to show the proposal around to active shooters at matches in the spring, but (very inaccurate) word got out on the forums in January......Assumptions were made before it was even read......I was accused of everything short of bank robbery and 1st degree murder by some, and encouraged by others. I finally scrapped it because of all of the BS that went around over it. It eventually was reworded (I had zero involvement) and (loosely....w/no cal. restriction) became the "optional LVS bla bla bla" class that has not even been contested to date.

If (that's a big if) there were enough shooters to make 2 classes it would be a great idea to divide the classes. I don't think you'll draw any 6mm's though, unless there is a caliber restriction.........at least not at 100 yards. The reasoning that "We do it in the 6X classes" isn't convincing to me........There has been consideration for years of whether the VH class should even continue to exist. I think the LVS class would end up the same way, except that the LV shooters would just enter HV....just like we do now in VFS. Obviously the VH can't do the same and enter Hunter, because of the minimum capacity rule.

Lots of good food for thought.

-Dave-

there was a petition submitted to restrict VH to 6 MM. I was oposed to it back then but have changed my mind over time. I now find more importance in getting more people out ot shoot thus keeping our sport alive than I do with the various points being awarded for whatever. I have long been in favor of a seperate LVS class and would support the formation of one now. In my opinion, we need to do what it best for our sport vs what is best for the individual. If any of us are fortunate to be awarded something exceptional along the way, so much the better.

 

[longrange223]

what am i gonna do with my 30 grendel vh gun i just got if they limit vh to 6mm?

 

[greg]

Rebarrel

what am i gonna do with my 30 grendel vh gun i just got if they limit vh to 6mm?

to a .30 and shoot Hunter class...where the real men stack their beer mugs...right Al?

 

[longrange223]

that's a really encouraging statement when everyone is talking about doing all they can to encourage new shooters to try the sport,was planning on trying the 6x class this year for something new to do,sounds like there's some conflict in the hunter class too

 

[longrange223]

greg,before i make any more comments i'd like you to clarify what you're saying,even if they limit the vh class to 6mm then anyone who shoots in it would be less of a man than someone who shoots the hunter class?that statement if i understood it right does a lot of good for trying to get some of the ppc guys back into trying to shoot score