Dave Short
New member
I saw where Ron brought up SSOY points.
I brought up the Precision Rifleman points.
If you want to shoot two guns, shoot a light and a heavy. At least they are different.
Shooting two of the same class guns is cheesy in my opinion...Simply buying a "mulligan" in what used to be a sudden-death game. We're all just giving our opinion, right?
Dave
R
Randy J.
Guest
I am just a one gun person and don't forsee getting another real soon. I don't think there are many shooters shooting two guns of the same class. We certainly have many shooting LV and HV which the rule would still allow. I don't like losing out on SSOY points or placements because someone has shot two guns, period. It is bad enough losing to them once say nothing about twice! I do believe that shooting two guns is an advantage, whether you learn from a mistake or that one of the relays is better than the other. This is true whether the gun is one of the same class or LV and HV. I don't see a whole lotta difference seeing that we are shooting for a single prize. There is no win for LV and a seperate one for HV--its the same prize. If you are going to let LV and HV go for the same prize then I am all for letting guns of the same class go for it.
The real fix to this is to create two classes with separate awards. If you did this then no one would be complaining as each class would get awards. You could have SSOY points be done like the 6 power class--points going to the best scores regardless of class.
Another way to fix it is allow only one gun of the same class to be considered--without having to declare--the better score would get the awards. If you finished 1st and 3rd with the same class gun, you would only get the 1st place award and 4th place would move up to 3rd for all other purposes.
If we allow a person to shoot two guns of the same class why don't we allow the person with only one gun to enter it multiple times? Food for thought! Randy J.
The real fix to this is to create two classes with separate awards. If you did this then no one would be complaining as each class would get awards. You could have SSOY points be done like the 6 power class--points going to the best scores regardless of class.
Another way to fix it is allow only one gun of the same class to be considered--without having to declare--the better score would get the awards. If you finished 1st and 3rd with the same class gun, you would only get the 1st place award and 4th place would move up to 3rd for all other purposes.
If we allow a person to shoot two guns of the same class why don't we allow the person with only one gun to enter it multiple times? Food for thought! Randy J.
Dave Short
New member
First of all, I get to more than "a few matches a year." It is true that I don't show up every weekend, but I prefer to spend time with my family and friends. I've had years when I've shot 30+ aggs; last year was probably around 11. And, my level of participation doesn't have anything to do with how many shooters do what.......and most importanty, it is none of your business.
Second, None of this is a "sore subject" with me. My opinion is no different than that of a number of other posters here. It is pretty clear from reading your responses to my posts that I'm a sore subject with you. I'll remind you again as I did a few years ago that your obnoxious comments and condescending attitude are why I no longer care to be on friendly terms with you.
Dave
Dave Short
New member
Dave Short
New member
After a clarification/apology you continue to attack on a personal level I have to wonder about your motives. Save the attacks for your friends-
Exactly.......I suggest you take your own advice. If you really don't see what I mean, read back through the posts.
I'm wasting my time here......You know my motives (they haven't changed since back when we were on friendly terms).......obviously you're going to continue to paint this the way you have been all along.
Dave
Hal..
what I don't see in the proposal is this...If you shoot a LV and a HV gun in Varmint for Score class does one of those(that have been referred to here as different class guns) still have to be declared as a record gun? After all there is really no LV "class". The "class" is Varmint for Score and a light gun and a heavy gun are shot against each other in 1 "class". The rule as proposed doesn't seem to address this or am I missing something. Just for the record I have, on occasion, shot 2 guns in one class(maybe 3 times) and after a lot of thought about the issue, support changing the rules to allow only 1 gun to be shot for record(regardless of the gun weight), either for the match win or SSOY points, in the VfS Class. --Greg
what I don't see in the proposal is this...If you shoot a LV and a HV gun in Varmint for Score class does one of those(that have been referred to here as different class guns) still have to be declared as a record gun? After all there is really no LV "class". The "class" is Varmint for Score and a light gun and a heavy gun are shot against each other in 1 "class". The rule as proposed doesn't seem to address this or am I missing something. Just for the record I have, on occasion, shot 2 guns in one class(maybe 3 times) and after a lot of thought about the issue, support changing the rules to allow only 1 gun to be shot for record(regardless of the gun weight), either for the match win or SSOY points, in the VfS Class. --Greg
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Randy...
"I am just a one gun person and don't forsee getting another real soon. I don't think there are many shooters shooting two guns of the same class. We certainly have many shooting LV and HV which the rule would still allow."
The way I read the new rule language is that one could shoot a HV and a LV gun in VfS and still have 2 chances. Perhaps I'm mis-reading it but that is the way it reads to me. The way to fix it is either your 2 separate classes(as opposed to the one class now approach...VfS) or simply write the rule to say that when shooting 2 guns in the one VfS class(whether they be two HV's, two LV's or a LV and a HV) one has to declare one or the other as the record gun. --Greg
"I am just a one gun person and don't forsee getting another real soon. I don't think there are many shooters shooting two guns of the same class. We certainly have many shooting LV and HV which the rule would still allow."
The way I read the new rule language is that one could shoot a HV and a LV gun in VfS and still have 2 chances. Perhaps I'm mis-reading it but that is the way it reads to me. The way to fix it is either your 2 separate classes(as opposed to the one class now approach...VfS) or simply write the rule to say that when shooting 2 guns in the one VfS class(whether they be two HV's, two LV's or a LV and a HV) one has to declare one or the other as the record gun. --Greg
jackie schmidt
New member
Gregg
I did not write that correctly. What I meant was "if I could attend, I would vote for the ammendment".
Heck, we don't even have IBS Matches in our part of the Country, so I perhaps I shouldn't even be part of the discussion. BUT, since I am an IBS Member, I am at least entiltled to an opinion.
So I will say it like this. Allowing a shooter to shoot two Rifles in the same class goes against the basic tenant of score shooting, that being, EVERY SHOT COUNTS. How many times have we heard the statement that in group shooting, the first shot is always free, and that is where much of the real difficulty lies in Score, esspecially at the level that the discipline has evolved in too.
Someone else mentioned that allowing a shooter two shoot two Rifles in the same class was the same as getting a mulligan in Golf. If you do screw up on a target, you have a second chance. I can't believe that there are those who do not see something inherantly wrong with this.
All of this discussion about the difficulty in shooting two entirely separate Rifles is simply a smoke screen. So is the part about garnering info. The way it is done now is about one thing, and one thing only. Garnerring SOY points. But, when you allow things to happen that gives a shooter an advantage in the very aspects that make the Discipline difficult, then it cheapens the accomplishment. If it was about anything else, there would be no objections to this proposed amendment.
Here is another question. Since the second Rifle is an entire new entry, does the shooter always manage to draw a bench and one relay for the first Rifle, and the same bench but another relay for the second?? Of course, I am assuming that they are drawing for benches and relays the way we do it in our Region.
How about some hard data. Does anybody have the records from this past year that would reflect on how shooters actually did benefit from being allowed a second chance with another Rifle??........jackie
I did not write that correctly. What I meant was "if I could attend, I would vote for the ammendment".
Heck, we don't even have IBS Matches in our part of the Country, so I perhaps I shouldn't even be part of the discussion. BUT, since I am an IBS Member, I am at least entiltled to an opinion.
So I will say it like this. Allowing a shooter to shoot two Rifles in the same class goes against the basic tenant of score shooting, that being, EVERY SHOT COUNTS. How many times have we heard the statement that in group shooting, the first shot is always free, and that is where much of the real difficulty lies in Score, esspecially at the level that the discipline has evolved in too.
Someone else mentioned that allowing a shooter two shoot two Rifles in the same class was the same as getting a mulligan in Golf. If you do screw up on a target, you have a second chance. I can't believe that there are those who do not see something inherantly wrong with this.
All of this discussion about the difficulty in shooting two entirely separate Rifles is simply a smoke screen. So is the part about garnering info. The way it is done now is about one thing, and one thing only. Garnerring SOY points. But, when you allow things to happen that gives a shooter an advantage in the very aspects that make the Discipline difficult, then it cheapens the accomplishment. If it was about anything else, there would be no objections to this proposed amendment.
Here is another question. Since the second Rifle is an entire new entry, does the shooter always manage to draw a bench and one relay for the first Rifle, and the same bench but another relay for the second?? Of course, I am assuming that they are drawing for benches and relays the way we do it in our Region.
How about some hard data. Does anybody have the records from this past year that would reflect on how shooters actually did benefit from being allowed a second chance with another Rifle??........jackie
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Greg
As Dave pointed out, the intent is to keep shooters from shooting 2 HV rifles in the same agg. Same would go for 2 LV's, 2 VH's or Hunter rifles. It would still allow the use of 2 rifles in the same class, just require the shooter to declare one as the "reocrd" gun. If you look at the E-Board's recommendation, they feel that it needs to be re-worded to disallow the practice of shooting 2 guns in the same class altogether. I'm with you in the concern about HVS and LVS being the same class, the only distinction being Records. I think this will require some clarification. I really don't know why we don't simply separate HVS and LVS, making them two distinctly seperate classes. Then write into the rules that Precision Rifleman and SSOY will be combined under both classes, just like has already been done in the 6X game.
As Dave pointed out, the intent is to keep shooters from shooting 2 HV rifles in the same agg. Same would go for 2 LV's, 2 VH's or Hunter rifles. It would still allow the use of 2 rifles in the same class, just require the shooter to declare one as the "reocrd" gun. If you look at the E-Board's recommendation, they feel that it needs to be re-worded to disallow the practice of shooting 2 guns in the same class altogether. I'm with you in the concern about HVS and LVS being the same class, the only distinction being Records. I think this will require some clarification. I really don't know why we don't simply separate HVS and LVS, making them two distinctly seperate classes. Then write into the rules that Precision Rifleman and SSOY will be combined under both classes, just like has already been done in the 6X game.
Jackie...
I agree, one class, one gun for record whether thats for match champion or placement or SSOY points. I guess I know you folks don't do IBS Score down your way, but if you are a member your opinion is as valuable as any other imho. Glad to see you in the discussion. I agree with your position. My point is that the proposed rule change, as written and as the E Board has suggested modification, would still allow someone to shoot a 13.5 pound (HV) gun and a 10.5 lb. gun (LV) in the ONE VfS Class as two separate rifles. THe way I read the rule is that you can still shoot a HV and a LV in the 1 VfS class as two separate rifles with 2 chances to win or place. At least that's the way I read it. --Greg
I agree, one class, one gun for record whether thats for match champion or placement or SSOY points. I guess I know you folks don't do IBS Score down your way, but if you are a member your opinion is as valuable as any other imho. Glad to see you in the discussion. I agree with your position. My point is that the proposed rule change, as written and as the E Board has suggested modification, would still allow someone to shoot a 13.5 pound (HV) gun and a 10.5 lb. gun (LV) in the ONE VfS Class as two separate rifles. THe way I read the rule is that you can still shoot a HV and a LV in the 1 VfS class as two separate rifles with 2 chances to win or place. At least that's the way I read it. --Greg
Hal...
I agree the rule as proposed and as the E Board suggests amending needs to be clarified because we have one class, Varmint for Score, and two rifle weights, HV and LV, both shot in one class. If someone want to shoot 2 guns, whatever the combination of rifle weights is, then I think the rule should be very clear the only 1 is for record. If the rule can be interpreted as allowing a LV and a HV to be shot in the VfS class without declaring which one is for record, then it doesn't resolve the issue of someone shooting 2 guns with 2 chances to win or place. In the end it will be what the majority wants.
Regarding establishing two separate VfS class, a LV and HV Class, I think one of the issues was the dilution of the number of competitors for Precision Rifle Points that it would bring with it. I suppose that could be taken care of by combining the two for PRP's and SSOY points. Up our way we never have to worry about meeting the 20 shooter level. In my almost 10 years of shooting IBS score that has happened only once or twice. Still, we have fun!! --Greg
I agree the rule as proposed and as the E Board suggests amending needs to be clarified because we have one class, Varmint for Score, and two rifle weights, HV and LV, both shot in one class. If someone want to shoot 2 guns, whatever the combination of rifle weights is, then I think the rule should be very clear the only 1 is for record. If the rule can be interpreted as allowing a LV and a HV to be shot in the VfS class without declaring which one is for record, then it doesn't resolve the issue of someone shooting 2 guns with 2 chances to win or place. In the end it will be what the majority wants.
Regarding establishing two separate VfS class, a LV and HV Class, I think one of the issues was the dilution of the number of competitors for Precision Rifle Points that it would bring with it. I suppose that could be taken care of by combining the two for PRP's and SSOY points. Up our way we never have to worry about meeting the 20 shooter level. In my almost 10 years of shooting IBS score that has happened only once or twice. Still, we have fun!! --Greg
Dave..
I see no reason why one can't since VH and Hunter are "SEPARATE CLASSES".
SSOY points are given for only the top gun at a shoot in the combination of the two 6 power classes. In other words, if you are shoothing VH and I'm shooting Hunter, we aren't competing against one another EXCEPT for SSOY points. Not sure if Precision Rifleman Points are treated the same way. --Greg
Does this mean in 6 power, only one gun can be shot???
I see no reason why one can't since VH and Hunter are "SEPARATE CLASSES".
SSOY points are given for only the top gun at a shoot in the combination of the two 6 power classes. In other words, if you are shoothing VH and I'm shooting Hunter, we aren't competing against one another EXCEPT for SSOY points. Not sure if Precision Rifleman Points are treated the same way. --Greg
Yep, the lack of support for not establishing two separate classes has been in regards to Precision Rifleman points. But we already have precedent for that. The PR and SOY points acquired by 6 power shooters are of the combined variety. At most of the score shoots, except the big matches, there are not enough Hunter or Varmint Hunter shooters to satisfy minimum requirements for PR points. That same thing would happen to VFS if we separated the two classes...unless the classes were combined for PR and SSOY points. I don't honestly see the downside, but I'm sure some will disagree.
I think...
one downside of establishing 2 VfS classes is the dilution, al la the 6 power game, that one gets. Sure the points issue is resolved in 6X, but it seems a shame to have, lets say, 4 VH shooters and 4 Hunter shooters split up in different classes when the 8 could be shooting against each other.
I, for one, would rather go to a big VfS shoot and compete against 40 people rather than 20 if 20 shoot the LV class. The results may not show it but I'd rather test myself that way. Competition and seeing how well you can stack up against it on any given day or weekend is a big draw for me. If 2 VfS classes were ever setup I'd probably switch to Hunter clsss because of the challenge of shooting this rifle well because of equipment stipulations. I know that might sound contrary to my statement above, but when you beat anyone with a 6 power gun that is something to crow about!
In the end if the majority wants a ture LV VfS class then it will happen.
one downside of establishing 2 VfS classes is the dilution, al la the 6 power game, that one gets. Sure the points issue is resolved in 6X, but it seems a shame to have, lets say, 4 VH shooters and 4 Hunter shooters split up in different classes when the 8 could be shooting against each other.
I, for one, would rather go to a big VfS shoot and compete against 40 people rather than 20 if 20 shoot the LV class. The results may not show it but I'd rather test myself that way. Competition and seeing how well you can stack up against it on any given day or weekend is a big draw for me. If 2 VfS classes were ever setup I'd probably switch to Hunter clsss because of the challenge of shooting this rifle well because of equipment stipulations. I know that might sound contrary to my statement above, but when you beat anyone with a 6 power gun that is something to crow about!
In the end if the majority wants a ture LV VfS class then it will happen.
I agree 100% and like competing against many, rather than few. As to the 6 power, it's obviously a very difficult game, and winning there must be very rewarding. I think that one of the toughest things to accomplish in Benchrest shooting is acquiring a Bronze level jacket, shooting only a 6X gun. The list of shooters to reach this goal is very short...
R
ron collins
Guest
Hal....
What would be the best way to end this is to say that the rule is only one gun at a match. But does this include the folks that shoot one gun at 100- then shoot a different gun at 200.....can they still win the Agg?
What would be the best way to end this is to say that the rule is only one gun at a match. But does this include the folks that shoot one gun at 100- then shoot a different gun at 200.....can they still win the Agg?
Pete Wass
Well-known member
I don't see any way
for a 6 power shooter to be able to gain enough PS points to get to the bronze level now. The total numbers have been so low for so long, unless one had amassed points when there were more shooters, there is no chance. One accepts this as part of shooting 6 power rifles. I have thought that perhaps the requirements should be tweeked to reflect the times but it's probably just my greed reflex at work so I will be silent.
With regard to the whole precision shooter thing, is THE ultimate goal of participating in this sport to get to the Bronze level or what is the ultimate goal of Score Shooting? Is it fair for one class to be able to get there and not the others?
for a 6 power shooter to be able to gain enough PS points to get to the bronze level now. The total numbers have been so low for so long, unless one had amassed points when there were more shooters, there is no chance. One accepts this as part of shooting 6 power rifles. I have thought that perhaps the requirements should be tweeked to reflect the times but it's probably just my greed reflex at work so I will be silent.
With regard to the whole precision shooter thing, is THE ultimate goal of participating in this sport to get to the Bronze level or what is the ultimate goal of Score Shooting? Is it fair for one class to be able to get there and not the others?
R
ron collins
Guest
They
only get one set of points, if one gun wins and the other comes in second, only the top gun get SSOY points the other gun gets nothing.
only get one set of points, if one gun wins and the other comes in second, only the top gun get SSOY points the other gun gets nothing.