Jerry Reisdorff
New member
Will LVS and HVS be Split now
Or will I just end up with 1st and 2nd place vfs with my hvs and lvs rifles ?
Or will I just end up with 1st and 2nd place vfs with my hvs and lvs rifles ?
'Morning, Hal. Thanks for the update...sounds like it was a productive meeting.
Here's my question: Are there now seperate and distinct classes for the LV and HV guns with seperate winners/finishing places/points being awarded? In others words...a true LVfS class and a true HVfS class? In the past, we've been all lumped together into one VfS class...but divided into LV and HV only for purposes of potential records. Or has that not changed and the competitor shooting both a LV and a HV must designate a single rifle as his 'points' gun?
Half the country away and wondering.....
-Al
Wayne Shaw
Active member
There is still only the VFS class, as far as points are concerned. It is up to the hosting club whether they score a LV and a HV separately. This just removed the multiple guns in one class being shot, for record.
Dave Short
New member
G'Morning Al,
The LV & HV are still lumped together as VFS, based on the fact that there are not enough competitors at most matches to make for a decent number of competitors in either class if split. This has always been the "show stopper" (mainly because of Precision Rifleman points) regarding the split.
The meeting was productive and everyone's conduct was (with the exception of only a few comments) very reasonable. It would have been good to have you attend...........maybe next year?
-Dave-
Dick Grosbier
Club Coordinator
IBS Rules already allow the running of separate true LVS and HVS classes however doing so typically will reduce the number of shooters to a point where neither class will earn Precision Rifleman points. The only thing that really happened on this rule change as I see it was the removal of shooting two rifles of the same class for instance 2 HV or 2 LV , or for that matter 2 Hunters or 2 Var-Htrs. (you can however shoot a second LV as a HV or 2nd Hunter as a VH.
As to SSOY points as I see it that is yet to be determined since rules for SSOY are in the hands of the Score Committee.
Dick
Wayne, Dave and Dick:
Thanks for the replies. The Score Committee will have lots of things to consider as they work out the points issue as regards awarding points to a competitor shooting both a LV and a HV gun. My thanks to them in advance and to everyone that dedicates their time and energy to serving on the various committees and official positions. Your hard work does not go unappreciated.
Dave: We were supposed to have been on a sunny beach in Mexico right now....imbibing in adult beverages, sleeping late, butchering the Spanish language and generally just putting our brains in neutral and soaking up some sun. But more pressing issues floated to the top and sidetracked our get away. Hope to catch up with you on a range somewhere this season. -Al
Thanks for the replies. The Score Committee will have lots of things to consider as they work out the points issue as regards awarding points to a competitor shooting both a LV and a HV gun. My thanks to them in advance and to everyone that dedicates their time and energy to serving on the various committees and official positions. Your hard work does not go unappreciated.
Dave: We were supposed to have been on a sunny beach in Mexico right now....imbibing in adult beverages, sleeping late, butchering the Spanish language and generally just putting our brains in neutral and soaking up some sun. But more pressing issues floated to the top and sidetracked our get away. Hope to catch up with you on a range somewhere this season.
-Al'Morning, Hal. Thanks for the update...sounds like it was a productive meeting.
Here's my question: Are there now seperate and distinct classes for the LV and HV guns with seperate winners/finishing places/points being awarded? In others words...a true LVfS class and a true HVfS class? In the past, we've been all lumped together into one VfS class...but divided into LV and HV only for purposes of potential records. Or has that not changed and the competitor shooting both a LV and a HV must designate a single rifle as his 'points' gun?
Half the country away and wondering.....
Hey Al, it was indeed a very productive meeting. All the agenda items for Score were passed in original form or amended properly to satisfy almost everyone present. The one that had the most difficulty was this one, and it was passed with a vote of 36 for and 13 against. Proxies were split evenly amongst the 2 sides. Anyhow, it is still up to clubs to decide whether they wish to separate HV and LV. The 2 classes are SEPARATE, but ranges still lump them together in the same aggregate, and points are only awarded for the top guns, regardless of class. As I see it, all it really takes is for a host club to separate the 2 classes on the score sheet. That is exactly how its done for VH and HTR right now. So far, no clubs that I am aware of have done this. Of course the number of competitors that start the aggregate in each class would need to be 10 for SOY and 20 for PR for full points to be gathered. As Dick has pointed out though , the new Score committee has the final say about how SOY points are accrued.
steve stanley
Well-known member
It seems to have been a very productive meeting, Congrats to the new members of the score committee or condolences as may be appropriate. Thanks to the former members for their service, it is often a thankless job that has to be done. Looking forward to a great new year of shooting, Steve
David Halblom
Flying Fish Fundamentals
the 2 are classed together,
as they well should be, ...for a class. The records are an entirely different issue. There is only 1 VFS, just as there is only 1 6X class. The records are a different issue altogether.
G'Morning Al,
The LV & HV are still lumped together as VFS, based on the fact that there are not enough competitors at most matches to make for a decent number of competitors in either class if split. This has always been the "show stopper" (mainly because of Precision Rifleman points) regarding the split.
The meeting was productive and everyone's conduct was (with the exception of only a few comments) very reasonable. It would have been good to have you attend...........maybe next year?
-Dave-
as they well should be, ...for a class. The records are an entirely different issue. There is only 1 VFS, just as there is only 1 6X class. The records are a different issue altogether.
R
Randy J.
Guest
David Halblom
David, I am not sure I understand what you mean about the 6x being a single class. If you are talking about SSOY points, then yes, I agree; but otherwise VH and Htr are two distinct classes, each with their own awards and plagues, at least everywhere I have shoot. I agree with you that VFS is a single class made up of a combination of LV and HV guns both for the purposes of placement/plagues and SSOY points. Randy J.
David, I am not sure I understand what you mean about the 6x being a single class. If you are talking about SSOY points, then yes, I agree; but otherwise VH and Htr are two distinct classes, each with their own awards and plagues, at least everywhere I have shoot. I agree with you that VFS is a single class made up of a combination of LV and HV guns both for the purposes of placement/plagues and SSOY points. Randy J.
Al...
No, there is just ONE VfS CLASS...still, no change. As always there are two rifle weights, 13.5 lb (HV) and 10.5lb (LV)...these are NOT SEPARATE CLASSES WITHIN VfS, just different weight guns in the same class shot head to head for placements, with only records kept separately. But, you know that.
What did change is the elimination of a shooter showing up with multiple HV guns or multiple LV guns and shooting both for record in the VfS Class.
HOWEVER, the writers of this change did still allow a shooter to shoot a HV gun and a LV gun in the VfS Class for record. Go figure that one buddy!
So, now if you want to be on an equal footing with some shooters you will have to build and shoot a LV gun along with your heavy gun in the VfS class. That is the only way you can now shoot 2 guns for record in the VfS class. --Greg
'Morning, Hal. Thanks for the update...sounds like it was a productive meeting.
Here's my question: Are there now seperate and distinct classes for the LV and HV guns with seperate winners/finishing places/points being awarded? In others words...a true LVfS class and a true HVfS class? In the past, we've been all lumped together into one VfS class...but divided into LV and HV only for purposes of potential records. Or has that not changed and the competitor shooting both a LV and a HV must designate a single rifle as his 'points' gun?
Half the country away and wondering.....
No, there is just ONE VfS CLASS...still, no change. As always there are two rifle weights, 13.5 lb (HV) and 10.5lb (LV)...these are NOT SEPARATE CLASSES WITHIN VfS, just different weight guns in the same class shot head to head for placements, with only records kept separately. But, you know that.
What did change is the elimination of a shooter showing up with multiple HV guns or multiple LV guns and shooting both for record in the VfS Class.
HOWEVER, the writers of this change did still allow a shooter to shoot a HV gun and a LV gun in the VfS Class for record. Go figure that one buddy!
So, now if you want to be on an equal footing with some shooters you will have to build and shoot a LV gun along with your heavy gun in the VfS class. That is the only way you can now shoot 2 guns for record in the VfS class. --Greg
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Hal...
that isn't so. There is just one VfS class. There are 2 different weights but still ONE CLASS. There is NO LV CLASS! HV and LV guns are shot head to head for placement and points in ONE VFS CLASS, just records being separate.
Congratulations for a great year in 2008. You keep us all on our toes!! --Greg
that isn't so. There is just one VfS class. There are 2 different weights but still ONE CLASS. There is NO LV CLASS! HV and LV guns are shot head to head for placement and points in ONE VFS CLASS, just records being separate.
Congratulations for a great year in 2008. You keep us all on our toes!! --Greg
Dick...
correct me if I'm wrong but the IBS allows clubs to run a LV class but only for club awards. It is not a sanctioned, separate class by the IBS. ---Greg
correct me if I'm wrong but the IBS allows clubs to run a LV class but only for club awards. It is not a sanctioned, separate class by the IBS. ---Greg
David Halblom
Flying Fish Fundamentals
for records and at matches....
HBR and Vhtr are seperate. But as a "class" they are one and the same. Just as LVFS and HVFS are one and the same. Only for records is there a difference either one of them
HBR and Vhtr are seperate. But as a "class" they are one and the same. Just as LVFS and HVFS are one and the same. Only for records is there a difference either one of them
Dave...
I have to disagree with you on this one. IBS recognizes Hunter and Varmint Hunter as separate classes. It is for shooter of the year that they are viewed as one...the top three 6 power shooters(regardless of whether they shot hunter class or varmint hunter class)are the ones that earn shooter of the year points as well as anyone else shooting a 250 or record or whatever the score comm. sets up for point awards for a particular year. I'm not sure if PRECISION RIFLEMAN POINTS are awarded the same way in the two 6 power classes. It isn't clear in the rule book.
Regarding OFFICIAL IBS SCORE SHOOTING CLASSES"
PAGE 17/29 of the on-line RULE BOOK:
"Score Shooting
A. Purpose
5) To attract shooters not previously engaged in Competitive Target Shooting
6) To improve hunting rifle accuracy and effects of components used therein
7) To better acquaint shooters with their rifles and competitive sportsmanship
B. Classifications
1) HUNTER CLASS shall be fired with any cartridge with no less than 30-30 Win case capacity. This is accepted as 45 grains of water to the top of the neck. It shall be fired with a rifle meeting the rules described in Section VI.C
2) VARMINT - HUNTER CLASS shall be fired with any centerfire cartridge. The rifle shall meet the rules as described in Section VI. C
3) VARMINT FOR SCORE shall be fired with any rifle meeting the Light Varmint or Heavy Varmint rules as described SECTIONS V.B.2 and V.B.3 of this rulebook. Records will be recognized for Light Varmint and Heavy Varmint Rifles but both rifles shall compete as a single centerfire class. Rimfire rifles shall compete as separate Light Varmint and Heavy Varmint classes. There shall be no distinction between Light Varmint and Sporter records. They shall be considered singly as a 10 1/2 pound class."
I have to disagree with you on this one. IBS recognizes Hunter and Varmint Hunter as separate classes. It is for shooter of the year that they are viewed as one...the top three 6 power shooters(regardless of whether they shot hunter class or varmint hunter class)are the ones that earn shooter of the year points as well as anyone else shooting a 250 or record or whatever the score comm. sets up for point awards for a particular year. I'm not sure if PRECISION RIFLEMAN POINTS are awarded the same way in the two 6 power classes. It isn't clear in the rule book.
Regarding OFFICIAL IBS SCORE SHOOTING CLASSES"
PAGE 17/29 of the on-line RULE BOOK:
"Score Shooting
A. Purpose
5) To attract shooters not previously engaged in Competitive Target Shooting
6) To improve hunting rifle accuracy and effects of components used therein
7) To better acquaint shooters with their rifles and competitive sportsmanship
B. Classifications
1) HUNTER CLASS shall be fired with any cartridge with no less than 30-30 Win case capacity. This is accepted as 45 grains of water to the top of the neck. It shall be fired with a rifle meeting the rules described in Section VI.C
2) VARMINT - HUNTER CLASS shall be fired with any centerfire cartridge. The rifle shall meet the rules as described in Section VI. C
3) VARMINT FOR SCORE shall be fired with any rifle meeting the Light Varmint or Heavy Varmint rules as described SECTIONS V.B.2 and V.B.3 of this rulebook. Records will be recognized for Light Varmint and Heavy Varmint Rifles but both rifles shall compete as a single centerfire class. Rimfire rifles shall compete as separate Light Varmint and Heavy Varmint classes. There shall be no distinction between Light Varmint and Sporter records. They shall be considered singly as a 10 1/2 pound class."
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David Halblom
Flying Fish Fundamentals
Pete Wass
Well-known member
As I tried to say
at the meeting, quit treading around the LV HV in VFS and legitimize the LV as a class. Change the freakin rules to accomodate SSOY points in the same way the 6 power classes are and MOVE ON. What is so tough about that? It makes no sense to me to keep a seperate set of records for a class that doesn't exist.
at the meeting, quit treading around the LV HV in VFS and legitimize the LV as a class. Change the freakin rules to accomodate SSOY points in the same way the 6 power classes are and MOVE ON. What is so tough about that? It makes no sense to me to keep a seperate set of records for a class that doesn't exist.
jackie schmidt
New member
Pete
That is a pretty good point. Keeping records for a class that doesn't exist.
I suppose all of this is in the hope that the class structure for Varmint for Score will evolve into what is offerred in Group Shooting. As the IBS continues to move in the direction of being primarilly a Score Sanctioning Body, this might come to pass.
Personally, I thing the IBS made a dramatic move toward common sense in this latest ruling. It always seemed alittle obsurd allowing shooters to shoot more than once in the same class, choosing only at the end of the day which score they wanted to submitt.
Granted, we do not shoot IBS down here. But, many of us are IBS members, and we never know what the future might bring.
I am waiting to see how much responce we recieve from our Club Match, (score), at Tomball this year.
........jackie
That is a pretty good point. Keeping records for a class that doesn't exist.
I suppose all of this is in the hope that the class structure for Varmint for Score will evolve into what is offerred in Group Shooting. As the IBS continues to move in the direction of being primarilly a Score Sanctioning Body, this might come to pass.
Personally, I thing the IBS made a dramatic move toward common sense in this latest ruling. It always seemed alittle obsurd allowing shooters to shoot more than once in the same class, choosing only at the end of the day which score they wanted to submitt.
Granted, we do not shoot IBS down here. But, many of us are IBS members, and we never know what the future might bring.
I am waiting to see how much responce we recieve from our Club Match, (score), at Tomball this year.
........jackie
Pete Wass
Well-known member
Actually
they only half did it. It is still possible to shoot a light and heavy or two lights, calling one of them a heavy and still being able to get first and second. As I pointed out, if the SSOY points are the only issue here, change the freaking rule governing same. If Club Awards are an issue, give less and don't continue to date them, that way, they can be given out at any time. I realize awards are important to some people but many have no desire left to take home second and third place placks.
they only half did it. It is still possible to shoot a light and heavy or two lights, calling one of them a heavy and still being able to get first and second. As I pointed out, if the SSOY points are the only issue here, change the freaking rule governing same. If Club Awards are an issue, give less and don't continue to date them, that way, they can be given out at any time. I realize awards are important to some people but many have no desire left to take home second and third place placks.
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Dick Grosbier
Club Coordinator
Jackie
The Texas State IBS Championship both Group and Score will be held 3--4 Oct. at North Texas Shooters assoc. Denton
Dick