How do we increase membership today?
- Thread starter Joe Krupa
- Start date
N
Newbie01
Guest
tired of the crap
I can see why people are hesitant to post on this website. You make a suggestion and you get pounced on by a bunch of rabbid dogs. The truth is if things stay the same BR will fade away. Im am sorry if it hurts peoples feelings but what is happening right now will not due for the future.
Jackie, not everyone is like you. Not everyone has the means nor the will to do what you do. We admire the drive that you have but as far as I know, there are very few like you. Why do you not want anything to change? Would it not be good if you didn't have to travel as far as you do to go to a match? Would it not be good to keep some of the ranges open that are on the verge of shutting down (some because of old age and some because of money problems)?
The truth is if we do not get new shooters envolved the sport will die.
And I of all people think that you should come up with better Ideas than just Club shoots!!!!!!!!
I can see why people are hesitant to post on this website. You make a suggestion and you get pounced on by a bunch of rabbid dogs. The truth is if things stay the same BR will fade away. Im am sorry if it hurts peoples feelings but what is happening right now will not due for the future.
Jackie, not everyone is like you. Not everyone has the means nor the will to do what you do. We admire the drive that you have but as far as I know, there are very few like you. Why do you not want anything to change? Would it not be good if you didn't have to travel as far as you do to go to a match? Would it not be good to keep some of the ranges open that are on the verge of shutting down (some because of old age and some because of money problems)?
The truth is if we do not get new shooters envolved the sport will die.
And I of all people think that you should come up with better Ideas than just Club shoots!!!!!!!!
A
AVanGorder
Guest
What about offering classes for new shooters only? This would remove the intimidation and much of the unknown. The class would be in the evenings for a couple hours. Tell the students not to bring any guns to the first class or two.
An experienced shooter would lead the instruction, explaining what BR is about, show different types of bags and rests, from entry level to top shelf. Show a rifle or two. Explain the rules, procedures, targets, scoring... The last day of the class would be a match between only the students.
Spreading the class over several weeks, one night a week, would allow the students to get to know each other and the instructor(s) before going to their first sanctioned match. Going to the first match is the hardest part.
An experienced shooter would lead the instruction, explaining what BR is about, show different types of bags and rests, from entry level to top shelf. Show a rifle or two. Explain the rules, procedures, targets, scoring... The last day of the class would be a match between only the students.
Spreading the class over several weeks, one night a week, would allow the students to get to know each other and the instructor(s) before going to their first sanctioned match. Going to the first match is the hardest part.
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Wilbur...
.... I am somewhat confused about your last two posts on this thread.
First, I was asked to join a committee that had the objective of trying to increase membership. I take that job very seriously.
Second, your question about "Well....where did the existing members come from" sounds somewhat cynical. Or was it merely a simple question to solicit truthful answers.
These are the facts: in January 2003 the NBRSA had 2,212 members. In June 2008, there are 1,632. In the same time period, our sister organization in the sport has grown in numbers to where it now, for the first time in the history of benchrest, outnumbers the NBRSA. These are not conflicting organizations, nor should they be. But, the two organizations do operate slighty different and have slightly different objectives.
I am going to ask you a question: as a newly re-elected NBRSA director, does that not appear somewhat quizzical to you?
I want to see this sport grow. I solicited positive suggestions in this forum. Perhaps I simply wanted to see if there were ideas that we have not yet thought of.
I am not trying to be confrontational, but I am getting a read that there is some frustration pointed toward me, as the person asking the questions, as opposed to what the true issues regarding the declining numbers are.
I am going to be in this sport for quite a while yet. I love benchrest too much to go away. And I am not a wall flower, so I will be pursuing this growth initiative with much energy.
I am leaving to get on a plane for work and will not have access to this Board for the next few days. If you, or anyone else for that matter, wants to have a positive dialogue about this, please contact me directly after Sunday. Until then, my backside is left unprotected, so blaze away. I'll address questions or comments after I get back.
.... I am somewhat confused about your last two posts on this thread.
First, I was asked to join a committee that had the objective of trying to increase membership. I take that job very seriously.
Second, your question about "Well....where did the existing members come from" sounds somewhat cynical. Or was it merely a simple question to solicit truthful answers.
These are the facts: in January 2003 the NBRSA had 2,212 members. In June 2008, there are 1,632. In the same time period, our sister organization in the sport has grown in numbers to where it now, for the first time in the history of benchrest, outnumbers the NBRSA. These are not conflicting organizations, nor should they be. But, the two organizations do operate slighty different and have slightly different objectives.
I am going to ask you a question: as a newly re-elected NBRSA director, does that not appear somewhat quizzical to you?
I want to see this sport grow. I solicited positive suggestions in this forum. Perhaps I simply wanted to see if there were ideas that we have not yet thought of.
I am not trying to be confrontational, but I am getting a read that there is some frustration pointed toward me, as the person asking the questions, as opposed to what the true issues regarding the declining numbers are.
I am going to be in this sport for quite a while yet. I love benchrest too much to go away. And I am not a wall flower, so I will be pursuing this growth initiative with much energy.
I am leaving to get on a plane for work and will not have access to this Board for the next few days. If you, or anyone else for that matter, wants to have a positive dialogue about this, please contact me directly after Sunday. Until then, my backside is left unprotected, so blaze away. I'll address questions or comments after I get back.
jackie schmidt
New member
Joe
Maybe you will catch this before you leave.
The one common denominator that has changed is that The IBS instituted Varmint for Score, and the NBRSA has not.
That is the one single big difference in the shooting Format.By the numbers, one organization is growing, one is shrinking.
Even though I do not favor NBRSA going to Varmint for score, it is one tangible difference we can actually see........jackie
Maybe you will catch this before you leave.
The one common denominator that has changed is that The IBS instituted Varmint for Score, and the NBRSA has not.
That is the one single big difference in the shooting Format.By the numbers, one organization is growing, one is shrinking.
Even though I do not favor NBRSA going to Varmint for score, it is one tangible difference we can actually see........jackie
Joe - Not cynical at all
Had no intent of being cynical. Just food for thought. Why are the existing members still members? If you're familiar with cause analysis you'll understand that before you can fix it you gotta know what's wrong - the true issues if you will. Another question would be why lost members failed to renew?
I sensed a bit of irritation in your answer to how you got on the committee. I only asked because I didn't remember how the committee came about.
Had no intent of being cynical. Just food for thought. Why are the existing members still members? If you're familiar with cause analysis you'll understand that before you can fix it you gotta know what's wrong - the true issues if you will. Another question would be why lost members failed to renew?
I sensed a bit of irritation in your answer to how you got on the committee. I only asked because I didn't remember how the committee came about.
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S
Single Shot
Guest
There's a BIG difference between how many "shooters" there is versus how many "subscribers" to BR publications there is, I have been a IBS publication subscriber and shooter type, an ARA subscriber and shooter, and a ASSRA subscriber and shooter, am a USRA ( the real one ) subscriber but do not shoot there events because of health reasons and they do not have BR events, does anyone know the difference in numbers between shooters and subscribers ?.
I'm sure the officials of each assoc, can answer that question, but will they ?.
I know of a handful of guys that subscribe to a bunch of different so called Associations but they don't shoot. Are guys just joining one, or a multiple of others just because of the good publication they put out ?, and is it because some have junk mail type pub's and that accounts for low member count and non-re-newel, bottom line, BR needs to attract both shooters and members, sometimes it can work both ways, a good pub can get subscribers, that in turn may get them interested in shooting the events, not just being armchair shooters.
SS
I'm sure the officials of each assoc, can answer that question, but will they ?.
I know of a handful of guys that subscribe to a bunch of different so called Associations but they don't shoot. Are guys just joining one, or a multiple of others just because of the good publication they put out ?, and is it because some have junk mail type pub's and that accounts for low member count and non-re-newel, bottom line, BR needs to attract both shooters and members, sometimes it can work both ways, a good pub can get subscribers, that in turn may get them interested in shooting the events, not just being armchair shooters.
SS
I was going to post a long reply with suggestions, but its just not important.
If you don’t believe its not important go to the home page and click on the NBRSA records link.
2003 rings a bell….
Isn’t that the last time the NBRSA records were updated on the internet?
The IBS sure has a cool website don’t they? I even went to one of their group matches last year, I would have went to the NBRSA match the week after but I didn’t know about it until someone at the IBS match told me about it. I might catch one next year, if gas goes down and the official screamer patch is cool enough. Loved the looks of that Indy car patch in the mid 90's! Me and two other friends had BR rifles built instead of a long-range varmint rifle because of it.
Dick Wright
New member
"Just club shoots"
Newbie01,
Be careful when you disparage club shoots. This is where benchrest shooters come from.
Dick Wright
Newbie01,
Be careful when you disparage club shoots. This is where benchrest shooters come from.
Dick Wright
Mustafa Bilal
New member
"Just club shoots"
Dick, I think he was thinking quantity rather than quality. More ideas than just club shoots as the one and only idea.
Mustafa
Dick, I think he was thinking quantity rather than quality. More ideas than just club shoots as the one and only idea.
Mustafa
I'm with Jackie on this one
Why would you want to make it easy? There is a bigger sense of accomplishment in doing a difficult job well than doing well at an easy task. The "scare factor" is what you make it. I will tell you how I got involved in BR shooting.
I was an avid varmint hunter, loved accurate rifles, shot alot of paper also. I thought a half inch gun was great. I had read some books on benchrest shooting and thought I would give it a try. I built me up a 700 action with a krieger bbl in a 6 br. This was in the year 2002, I had NEVER been to a match anywhere. Well I looked up where there would be an upcoming match. I decided to go to the nationals at midland tx. Well, I went, had a great time, learned alot. I sure didn't whine about getting my rear kicked. But I did tell myself " I'm going to learn this sport and be able to compete" I have had some mentors along the way that has helped alot. But it comes down to dedication. I shoot quite alot at home and most of the mid-continent schedule. In 2005-06 I was able to finish 3rd in our region, this year it was 2nd. 2007 I didn't shoot because of the Greensburg,KS tornado. I'm not bringing this up to pat myself on the back. It is just an example of what dedication will do. Many other shooters do the same.
I am more than willing to help anybody that needs it. Forget about being out of the comfort zone, just show up, have a good time, learn from your experiences. If you like it,you will continue on.
Richard Brensing
Why would you want to make it easy? There is a bigger sense of accomplishment in doing a difficult job well than doing well at an easy task. The "scare factor" is what you make it. I will tell you how I got involved in BR shooting.
I was an avid varmint hunter, loved accurate rifles, shot alot of paper also. I thought a half inch gun was great. I had read some books on benchrest shooting and thought I would give it a try. I built me up a 700 action with a krieger bbl in a 6 br. This was in the year 2002, I had NEVER been to a match anywhere. Well I looked up where there would be an upcoming match. I decided to go to the nationals at midland tx. Well, I went, had a great time, learned alot. I sure didn't whine about getting my rear kicked. But I did tell myself " I'm going to learn this sport and be able to compete" I have had some mentors along the way that has helped alot. But it comes down to dedication. I shoot quite alot at home and most of the mid-continent schedule. In 2005-06 I was able to finish 3rd in our region, this year it was 2nd. 2007 I didn't shoot because of the Greensburg,KS tornado. I'm not bringing this up to pat myself on the back. It is just an example of what dedication will do. Many other shooters do the same.
I am more than willing to help anybody that needs it. Forget about being out of the comfort zone, just show up, have a good time, learn from your experiences. If you like it,you will continue on.
Richard Brensing
As far as getting people to join the BR organizations there are quite a few people that aren't 'joiners'. I am one. Between the Sports Car Club of America, National Hot Rod Association, the American Historic Racing Motorcycle Association and the American Motorcyclist Association I have been screwed over too many times to count. I have gotten to the point where if I need the membership to compete in an event I will join up. Once I move on to something else and don't need the membership I let it lapse.
Maybe that is a short sighted point of view but far too often the clique in power alienates too many of the casual members and next thing you know, they ain't members any more.
Maybe that is a short sighted point of view but far too often the clique in power alienates too many of the casual members and next thing you know, they ain't members any more.
David Apple
Member
A different view on this is....
Jackie,
With all respect, IBS has had score shooting for a long time. The reality of it is score shooting is much more practical for the majority of the shooters because of the format. Not many shooters of either organization can afford to go and shoot for 3-5 days. It is just not realistic for most. IBS and NBRSA in it's hunter format, offer alternatives that are more in touch with the needs of the modern shooter. Now, if the match directors in the northeast could only get a little progressive in their thought processes and move from a one yardage match to a 2 yardage match format the shooters will get more shooting for their travel buck, the clubs and the organization will get more money from fees and the world will be a better place. This format is done already in the south and on the other side of the big muddy.
I have a question Jackie.....why do you not favor NBRSA offering score shooting as a format???? I find this very disturbiing. We, in the precision shooting game are a few in numbers. If there are 3000 members in both organizations, and I think that is overly optimistic, there are...MAYBE 350-425 "active" shooters. Define "active" anyway you want but the reality is we ought not be favoring any kind of segregation. Remember united we stand, devided we fall??? We all shoot benchrest. Let's move past the bull that happened in that living room in Ohio when egos determined the fate of sport rather than common sense.
I belong to both organizations and I know a lot of others besides myself who are tired of the old boy crap. no one even knows the real story about why the two organizations split and most importantly, most people don't care. No one format is better than the other. We are one. Let's move on.
David Apple
Jackie,
With all respect, IBS has had score shooting for a long time. The reality of it is score shooting is much more practical for the majority of the shooters because of the format. Not many shooters of either organization can afford to go and shoot for 3-5 days. It is just not realistic for most. IBS and NBRSA in it's hunter format, offer alternatives that are more in touch with the needs of the modern shooter. Now, if the match directors in the northeast could only get a little progressive in their thought processes and move from a one yardage match to a 2 yardage match format the shooters will get more shooting for their travel buck, the clubs and the organization will get more money from fees and the world will be a better place.
This format is done already in the south and on the other side of the big muddy. I have a question Jackie.....why do you not favor NBRSA offering score shooting as a format???? I find this very disturbiing. We, in the precision shooting game are a few in numbers. If there are 3000 members in both organizations, and I think that is overly optimistic, there are...MAYBE 350-425 "active" shooters. Define "active" anyway you want but the reality is we ought not be favoring any kind of segregation. Remember united we stand, devided we fall??? We all shoot benchrest. Let's move past the bull that happened in that living room in Ohio when egos determined the fate of sport rather than common sense.
I belong to both organizations and I know a lot of others besides myself who are tired of the old boy crap. no one even knows the real story about why the two organizations split and most importantly, most people don't care. No one format is better than the other. We are one. Let's move on.
David Apple
S
scott mims
Guest
I say change nothing.....
The only real thing we could do to get more people (and still this will not help) is to make things cheaper.... actions, stocks,....... Everyone of my friends I talk to about this says how crazy we are to pay that much, they say they can go out in the woods and "shoot there guns". How about making all or more money matches? If we allow hunter class, AR-15's and all of that stuff that means more matches needs to be hosted by the ranges and most of the time I hear how hard it is to run a match. So why will a range want to run a 2 day match with only 5 or 10 people showing up? Cause we would have to have different classes cause why would someone want to pay $80 or more dollars to enter a match with those rifles to compete with rifles they cant beat (that will turn most away). More members might jump on that band wagon for awhile, but will get real old for them. Lets say 100 people join the NBRSA because of "changes" made and 10 stay in after a couple years thats good. Also we are living in times where alot of us (maybe not me yet) are getting older, sicker, or heavens help pass away. The younger bunch overall could care less about this. I would agree though, since I have joined in 1999, matches have been cut in half. It was nothing to go to Rachels Glen and have 60-80 people. Now (not counting the Shamrock) the last several matches I have been to have been 35 or less. I promise I didnt do this to get anyone mad, I think the ones that compete will ALWAYS compete. But alot of people need something to motivate them.... such as money or women. I think money will be easier to give away at a match. Sorry to everyone that reads this Im not a english major as my "Centerfire Benchrest Friends" are.
The only real thing we could do to get more people (and still this will not help) is to make things cheaper.... actions, stocks,....... Everyone of my friends I talk to about this says how crazy we are to pay that much, they say they can go out in the woods and "shoot there guns". How about making all or more money matches? If we allow hunter class, AR-15's and all of that stuff that means more matches needs to be hosted by the ranges and most of the time I hear how hard it is to run a match. So why will a range want to run a 2 day match with only 5 or 10 people showing up? Cause we would have to have different classes cause why would someone want to pay $80 or more dollars to enter a match with those rifles to compete with rifles they cant beat (that will turn most away). More members might jump on that band wagon for awhile, but will get real old for them. Lets say 100 people join the NBRSA because of "changes" made and 10 stay in after a couple years thats good. Also we are living in times where alot of us (maybe not me yet) are getting older, sicker, or heavens help pass away. The younger bunch overall could care less about this. I would agree though, since I have joined in 1999, matches have been cut in half. It was nothing to go to Rachels Glen and have 60-80 people. Now (not counting the Shamrock) the last several matches I have been to have been 35 or less. I promise I didnt do this to get anyone mad, I think the ones that compete will ALWAYS compete. But alot of people need something to motivate them.... such as money or women. I think money will be easier to give away at a match. Sorry to everyone that reads this Im not a english major as my "Centerfire Benchrest Friends" are.
jackie schmidt
New member
Women???
Wow, Scott, why didn't I think of that. I will ask my Wife tonight what she thinks.
There is a lot of truth in what you have posted. One thing I would add is this. Benchrest is not about Guns. That is probably what turns most OTHER shooting enthusiest away........jackie
Wow, Scott, why didn't I think of that. I will ask my Wife tonight what she thinks.
There is a lot of truth in what you have posted. One thing I would add is this. Benchrest is not about Guns. That is probably what turns most OTHER shooting enthusiest away........jackie
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Jackie,
I think you may have really hit on it there...Benchrest isn't "fun". You aren't hitting a reactive target, shooting for speed, running between targets, exploding clays, or really even coming in contact with the gun itself for the most part.
One of the guys that I know who shoots competitive br said that a lot of the guys that shoot in competition aren't gun nuts. He happens to be a gun nut and after he finishes with his load testing, he breaks out his .22 pistols and plinks at steel silhouettes at 75 yards (they're pretty large!).
I often find myself wanting to hit a steel ram at 400 yards, or exploding a milk jug with my 45-70 after I have finished an afternoon of trying to shoot bugholes.
I also just happen to have an obsessive side that craves perfection...something that a sharps replica just can't provide. Those who are meant for benchrest will find it. Just need a way to figure out how to reach them...marketing/advertising on other sites and at ranges, numbers of matches, availability, prestige to some degree, prizes.
Guys who go bass fishing spend thousands on boats, lures, rods, etc...Guys who like cars spend thousands on their gear and so on. Expense isn't everything. Equipment is affordable if you want it bad enough, and if it is what you want to invest your time in. Again, just have to reach those who want it.
Mike
I think you may have really hit on it there...Benchrest isn't "fun". You aren't hitting a reactive target, shooting for speed, running between targets, exploding clays, or really even coming in contact with the gun itself for the most part.
One of the guys that I know who shoots competitive br said that a lot of the guys that shoot in competition aren't gun nuts. He happens to be a gun nut and after he finishes with his load testing, he breaks out his .22 pistols and plinks at steel silhouettes at 75 yards (they're pretty large!).
I often find myself wanting to hit a steel ram at 400 yards, or exploding a milk jug with my 45-70 after I have finished an afternoon of trying to shoot bugholes.
I also just happen to have an obsessive side that craves perfection...something that a sharps replica just can't provide. Those who are meant for benchrest will find it. Just need a way to figure out how to reach them...marketing/advertising on other sites and at ranges, numbers of matches, availability, prestige to some degree, prizes.
Guys who go bass fishing spend thousands on boats, lures, rods, etc...Guys who like cars spend thousands on their gear and so on. Expense isn't everything. Equipment is affordable if you want it bad enough, and if it is what you want to invest your time in. Again, just have to reach those who want it.
Mike
jackie schmidt
New member
Mike
I sure am not a Gun Nut. I shoot BR because of the Competition. The Rifle is simply the piece of equipment we compete with.
That is not to say I can't shoot other weapons. A week end ago, one of our members and fellow Benchrest Shooter at Tomball had a really nice Model 19 Smith & Wesson with him. He had some 38 target loads, and was shooting at 15 yards at a regular silloette target. I ask him if I could shoot it. Off hand, double action, I put about 18 shots in a two inch circle right between the eyes.
He said he could not beleive I could do that double action. I said that once you learn the technique, a revolver can be shot double action more accuratly than single.
You do not have to be a gun nut to know how to shoot.........jackie
I sure am not a Gun Nut. I shoot BR because of the Competition. The Rifle is simply the piece of equipment we compete with.
That is not to say I can't shoot other weapons. A week end ago, one of our members and fellow Benchrest Shooter at Tomball had a really nice Model 19 Smith & Wesson with him. He had some 38 target loads, and was shooting at 15 yards at a regular silloette target. I ask him if I could shoot it. Off hand, double action, I put about 18 shots in a two inch circle right between the eyes.
He said he could not beleive I could do that double action. I said that once you learn the technique, a revolver can be shot double action more accuratly than single.
You do not have to be a gun nut to know how to shoot.........jackie
J
J. Valentine
Guest
Benchrest is a lot of fun for the people who like it and are good at it.
The problem is that new potential shooters are driven away before they can develope any real ability and start to enjoy it .
Competitive shooters don't have any time for new shooters , they are too busy , loading , cleaning , shooting , talking to OTHER competitors running the range or competition etc. and if you try to ask them a question , you will be made to feel totally unwelcome , because you are breaking there concentration or whatever.
Clubs should wake up to the fact that the worst people to promote the sport at a range level is the competition shooter.
All clubs should have a few range officials that their whole job is to welcome , advise and support new shooters to the club.
However they should not be active competition shooters at the time of doing this job.
They should be chosen for their verbal skills, friendly outgoing nature and knowledge of how to get started in benchrest.
They don't need to be expert BR shooters.
Above all they should be the kind of people that actually like helping others.
Not chosen because they are the range captains brother or uncle or whatever.
New potential shooters are totally confused as to what rules they have to compete under , what weapon is suitable , how to enter a competition , Etc ,Etc and the list goes on and on.
If they are left to flounder for to long without a friendly helping hand they will give up because it is all too hard and little enjoyment is coming from the exspence and effort.
The problem is that new potential shooters are driven away before they can develope any real ability and start to enjoy it .
Competitive shooters don't have any time for new shooters , they are too busy , loading , cleaning , shooting , talking to OTHER competitors running the range or competition etc. and if you try to ask them a question , you will be made to feel totally unwelcome , because you are breaking there concentration or whatever.
Clubs should wake up to the fact that the worst people to promote the sport at a range level is the competition shooter.
All clubs should have a few range officials that their whole job is to welcome , advise and support new shooters to the club.
However they should not be active competition shooters at the time of doing this job.
They should be chosen for their verbal skills, friendly outgoing nature and knowledge of how to get started in benchrest.
They don't need to be expert BR shooters.
Above all they should be the kind of people that actually like helping others.
Not chosen because they are the range captains brother or uncle or whatever.
New potential shooters are totally confused as to what rules they have to compete under , what weapon is suitable , how to enter a competition , Etc ,Etc and the list goes on and on.
If they are left to flounder for to long without a friendly helping hand they will give up because it is all too hard and little enjoyment is coming from the exspence and effort.
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