Growing the IBS

[Al Nyhus]

Al, logical or illogical, until you try what is working for us, you really don't know how it will work for your area and, your suggestion is still a solution looking for a problem. Of course it could be like some other things...some might decide that they might as well cheat if they're going to be accused of it anyway. I'm more secure in my faith in the people that I shoot with at four different ranges, regularly, and call my friends, being a bit more mature and trustworthy than what you imply. But more importantly...it is working, whether you like that or believe that, or not. Logic, it seems to me, is not to tell me it won't work when we are doing it and your typing.

Mike, the point of my 'IROC' comment wasn't to actually advance such an idea. Rather, it was intended to get people thinking abut the pitfalls of such a class. An absurdity to illustrate an absurdity, if you will.

At least Wilbur got it......

Good shootin'. -Al

P.S. In response to the "...not to tell me it won't work when we are doing it and your (spic) typing" comment: At this point, I've traveled 4,200+ miles this season to shoot both IBS and NBRSA registered tournaments. Next weekend will be another 600 miler to my 'home' range in Webster City, Iowa for another registered IBS Score Two Gun (100-200 HBR and 100-200 VfS). Not sure if that qualifies me to type a comment on an issue or not....????

 

[Hunter]

[Orrington Rod & Gun Club (Orringtion, ME) has had "Factory BR" matches for over 15 yrs. Very few participants ever made the transition to competition BR.

Why is factory class not considered "competition"? Why does it matter whether the shooter transitions to full-blown BR? I thought the objective was to get more shooters?

most of the Factory Guns I see at matches cost as much as a good used Benchrifle so I don't see where there is any advantage to Factory Guns and beginners.

How much should a person realistically expect to pay for a "good used Benchrifle" (one that doesn't need a new barrel)? I've seen several factory guns that cost less than $1K consistently win club matches in factory class, and several other factory guns being shot at such matches that cost, maybe, $600. I suspect a guy could shoot a $400 gun and feel like he has a chance to be competitive in factory class.

The advantage is that most shooters already have a factory gun. So the part of the startup cost associated with the gun is zero. Remember it is first time shooters we are talking about. Would they be more likely to try a new shooting sport if it cost A) zero, because they already have a gun, or B) thousands for a special purpose gun they may never use again if they don't like the game? It is a really simple question with an easy answer.

+1

 

[mwezell]

Mike, the point of my 'IROC' comment wasn't to actually advance such an idea. Rather, it was intended to get people thinking abut the pitfalls of such a class. An absurdity to illustrate an absurdity, if you will.

At least Wilbur got it......

Good shootin'. -Al

P.S. In response to the "...not to tell me it won't work when we are doing it and your (spic) typing" comment: At this point, I've traveled 4,200+ miles this season to shoot both IBS and NBRSA registered tournaments. Next weekend will be another 600 miler to my 'home' range in Webster City, Iowa for another registered IBS Score Two Gun (100-200 HBR and 100-200 VfS). Not sure if that qualifies me to type a comment on an issue or not....????

Mr. Nyhus, I got it too. Sure the possibility of someone cheating is there. Did you happen to see where I mentioned, twice now, that backers aren't required for non-grand agg score matches in the IBS? I mentioned it for two reasons..One is to show the hypocrisy of the rule and the need for a better way of changing rules in the IBS, and two, was to show a glaring opportunity to cheat. I count roughly 51 matches on this season's IBS score schedule where that opportunity is there for the taking, and it's been around that same number for several years. How many times has it happened? I'm not talking about the accidental crossfire that is immediately owned up to...I'm talking about the one nobody claims. Without backers, the possibility is there. Nothing has been done to close this loophole. Why not? Could it be because people in this sport are generally trustworthy, or am I just the first person to see this? If it has worked for so many years without backers in non-grand agg matches...then what's the need for backers in any match, for that matter? Afterall, backers aren't an infallible means of determining which bench it came from. Oh, and where in the IBS rule book does it state how far behind the target a backer must be placed?


Some may see my posts in this thread as complaining and that's fine. But, I have made suggestions based on not just speculation, but rather what has been implemented and is working in UBR, and why, in part I no longer belong to IBS. Another suggestion that's working is the caliber neutral target system, as controversial as it may be to some. We have factory guns, old 222 and ppc group guns, and 30's, all competing, and nobody complaining about one caliber having a decided advantage over the others.

I don't understand the argument that factory rifles will water down BR. More shooters make BR viable. Without viability there is no benchrest, or at the least, the travel will be greater and costs will be more. Shooting beside a factory gun, but being in two different classes doesn't water down the competition at all in BR...It only takes away from overall operating costs per shooter and introduces some new shooters to the game that may or may not move up or even stay with it. This is IMO, and I am involved in the running of matches and helping run matches.


Mr. Nyhus, I, like most here and in the BR world recognize who you are and what you have done, and continue to do, to contribute to the sport. You're(sp) truly an asset to the sport. Your travels beat my own by a fair amount,annually, but when I add up my mileage from 2009-2010, not by much, but nevertheless, here ya go.

 

[Maddog]

That's good to know; now, if I could just convince myself to drive nine hours (round trip) to shoot.

Thanks for the information; maybe I'll ask the Shamrock guys to waive the match fee also -- for a first-timer with a factory gun. I"m sure that would be enough to get me to the line.

So, you're going to spend 9 hours driving, burn $150.00 in fuel, and save $15.00 on match fees, and get into benchrest??? Really? Really? What kinda Koolaid you drinkin' kid?

 

[Wilbur]

Why is factory class not considered "competition"? Why does it matter whether the shooter transitions to full-blown BR? I thought the objective was to get more shooters?

Sounds right, what you wrote, but I'm not sure that's the objective at all - believing if that was the objective, then all the organizations would already have a factory class. Something more is afoot. The "problem" is that attendance in the conventional sanctioned matches is waning and the issue on the table is what can be done to increase attendance or even limit the wane. Increasing the numbers with factory class competitors would surely increase revenue but does not address the "problem" in the eyes of those currently engaged in the conventional classes. Never mind that a few extra match fees might keep a sanctioned club alive for another year. The majority, as it seems, is resistant and it appears that folks in support of factory class will need to become the majority if it's ever going to happen.

 

[SGJennings]

New shooters are, by and large, going to start in their local area.

Be accomodating. Lower barriers of all kinds to getting started, both individuals and clubs. Make the rules as easy as possible to understand and implement. Don't sweat the small stuff. Stay focused on what is important...putting on events, getting shooters to the line and letting them have a good time.

 

[mwezell]

New shooters are, by and large, going to start in their local area.

Be accomodating. Lower barriers of all kinds to getting started, both individuals and clubs. Make the rules as easy as possible to understand and implement. Don't sweat the small stuff. Stay focused on what is important...putting on events, getting shooters to the line and letting them have a good time.

Absolutely...Well put, Greg. That covers lots of bases.

 

[Hunter]

So, you're going to spend 9 hours driving, burn $150.00 in fuel, and save $15.00 on match fees, and get into benchrest??? Really? Really? What kinda Koolaid you drinkin' kid?

It sounds like you not only missed the nuance of my first statement, but also haven't read my other posts on this thread.

 

[goodgrouper]

Sounds right, what you wrote, but I'm not sure that's the objective at all - believing if that was the objective, then all the organizations would already have a factory class. Something more is afoot. The "problem" is that attendance in the conventional sanctioned matches is waning and the issue on the table is what can be done to increase attendance or even limit the wane. Increasing the numbers with factory class competitors would surely increase revenue but does not address the "problem" in the eyes of those currently engaged in the conventional classes. Never mind that a few extra match fees might keep a sanctioned club alive for another year. The majority, as it seems, is resistant and it appears that folks in support of factory class will need to become the majority if it's ever going to happen.

Wilbur just nailed the whole point. Well said.

Aka hunter, I think I can further answer your question. Maybe not as well as Wilbur did, but here it goes:
The NBRSA (and probably the IBS) was initially set up as a traditional, short range, group league questing after the ULTIMATE IN ACCURACY. In other words, it was to push whatever envelope it had to to see just how close bullets could be placed in the same spot time and time again with current technology. Over time, there were those who wanted to "grow more interest" in the game by creating a class that hunting rifles could shoot in. Thus, the Hunter class was born. At first, they really did compete with hunting rifles and every Tom, Dick and Harry who had a critter gitter could compete. But, over time, the quest to shoot better and better changed the class to where it is now shot with guns that I wouldn't take hunting in a million years. In fact, they've morphed into what can basically be considered full blown BR rigs like group and VFS use with the exception of 6x scopes, 30-30 case capacity, and "magazines" (which are just holes in the bottom of the actions that they don't even use). In the meanwhile, what was supposed to "bring more folks into benchrest shooting" only managed to create yet another class and divide the main original group as a whole. In many parts of the country, there aren't any group events left. And those that remain are somewhat "against" the Hunter class as a whole. In places where you might have had 50 shooters meeting 4 or 5 times a year, now you've got 25 shooters shooting 2 times and then a different 25 guys shooting 2other times of the year. So, the whole idea of bringing in more shooters with a class that was intended for them backfired and only cost the original group it's members by dividing it.
Fast forward to today, and you've got basically the same thing happening all over again. And this just after a total and complete failure with the introduction of the AR15 BR class even! Those of us that happen to like how things are, don't want anymore divisions or classes brought about just to satisfy or appeal to the "average joe" because we know it only makes us weaker, and we know the "average joe" isn't goint to be interested anyway. If another organization wants to start up a new league (such as UBR) to get maximum attendance by appealing to a larger base, then they can do that and they should. All we're saying is we don't want to split the IBS or NBRSA up anymore, and if a stronger organization is needed, then the IBS and NBRSA ought to become one again. If that happens, great. If not, fine. But any class that is created that goes against the Ultimate Pursuit of Accuracy" for whatever reason (be it cost, or availability, participation, or what have you) goes against what the NBRSA and IBS stand for and what their goal is. A factory class today would eventually follow the same morphology as the Hunter did, and wouldn't accomplish what it was intended to, just like history has shown us. In the end, it wouldn't add very many group or VFS guys, and it wouldn't take long before "factory" meant anything but.

Clear as mud right?

 

[mwezell]

GG, you bring up some good points here. I just have two questions.
First..Out of the entire IBS membership that may read this, when was the last time you invited an AR shooter to bring his AR to a match? I'm as guilty as anyone here.
Second...At some point a factory class must have been viewed in a positive light. Who had the bright idea of allowing the type of mods we see on H, VH rifles today? That's who screwed the pooch for a factory class IMO. There could have been some simple rules in place to keep it at least close to some semblance of a factory hunting rifle.

 

[dmoran65]

goodgrouper - you nailed it <> spot on !!!!

 

[goodgrouper]

GG, you bring up some good points here. I just have two questions.
First..Out of the entire IBS membership that may read this, when was the last time you invited an AR shooter to bring his AR to a match? I'm as guilty as anyone here.
Second...At some point a factory class must have been viewed in a positive light. Who had the bright idea of allowing the type of mods we see on H, VH rifles today? That's who screwed the pooch for a factory class IMO. There could have been some simple rules in place to keep it at least close to some semblance of a factory hunting rifle.

Not sure what you're getting at with your first question Mike. Can you elaborate?

As to your second, I don't know who did it. It was a gradual morph that probably started in the human nature to gain an advantage over his neighbor while obeying the written rule and ignoring the spirit of the rule.

 

[mwezell]

Not sure what you're getting at with your first question Mike. Can you elaborate?

As to your second, I don't know who did it. It was a gradual morph that probably started in the human nature to gain an advantage over his neighbor while obeying the written rule and ignoring the spirit of the rule.

I was simply stating that I don't think many of us have tried very hard to promote the AR class...myself included.

 

[Hal D.]

I think this is the best post regarding the factory class debate so far. What it boils down to in reality is that Hunter class WAS the original "factory" class. I'm all for getting more folks to shoot BR, but I'm just not sure this is the best route. As for AR's, we at FFX Rod & Gun had one of the best programs that I know of because Adrian Van Gorder went out of his way to enlist shooters from wherever he could. We had several matches where as many as 5 or 6 AR's ponied up to the line. I even shot one of mine. That lasted for about 3 or 4 matches, then just petered out completely. JMO, but I don't think that the typical AR guy has the same mindset as a BR guy. Nothing wrong with that, they are just two very different kinds of shooting. Carl Bernosky and others keep proving that the AR platform is a viable one for shooting highpower, which is very competitive and an accuracy discipline, but that doesn't mean it will translate over to the bench.

I believe that the best way to get new shooters in BR is to hold reloading and accuracy clinics, and full blown BR schools. Setting up booths at the local gunshow or swapmeet can also be a good way. We need more doing and less talking about it...

Wilbur just nailed the whole point. Well said.

Aka hunter, I think I can further answer your question. Maybe not as well as Wilbur did, but here it goes:
The NBRSA (and probably the IBS) was initially set up as a traditional, short range, group league questing after the ULTIMATE IN ACCURACY. In other words, it was to push whatever envelope it had to to see just how close bullets could be placed in the same spot time and time again with current technology. Over time, there were those who wanted to "grow more interest" in the game by creating a class that hunting rifles could shoot in. Thus, the Hunter class was born. At first, they really did compete with hunting rifles and every Tom, Dick and Harry who had a critter gitter could compete. But, over time, the quest to shoot better and better changed the class to where it is now shot with guns that I wouldn't take hunting in a million years. In fact, they've morphed into what can basically be considered full blown BR rigs like group and VFS use with the exception of 6x scopes, 30-30 case capacity, and "magazines" (which are just holes in the bottom of the actions that they don't even use). In the meanwhile, what was supposed to "bring more folks into benchrest shooting" only managed to create yet another class and divide the main original group as a whole. In many parts of the country, there aren't any group events left. And those that remain are somewhat "against" the Hunter class as a whole. In places where you might have had 50 shooters meeting 4 or 5 times a year, now you've got 25 shooters shooting 2 times and then a different 25 guys shooting 2other times of the year. So, the whole idea of bringing in more shooters with a class that was intended for them backfired and only cost the original group it's members by dividing it.
Fast forward to today, and you've got basically the same thing happening all over again. And this just after a total and complete failure with the introduction of the AR15 BR class even! Those of us that happen to like how things are, don't want anymore divisions or classes brought about just to satisfy or appeal to the "average joe" because we know it only makes us weaker, and we know the "average joe" isn't goint to be interested anyway. If another organization wants to start up a new league (such as UBR) to get maximum attendance by appealing to a larger base, then they can do that and they should. All we're saying is we don't want to split the IBS or NBRSA up anymore, and if a stronger organization is needed, then the IBS and NBRSA ought to become one again. If that happens, great. If not, fine. But any class that is created that goes against the Ultimate Pursuit of Accuracy" for whatever reason (be it cost, or availability, participation, or what have you) goes against what the NBRSA and IBS stand for and what their goal is. A factory class today would eventually follow the same morphology as the Hunter did, and wouldn't accomplish what it was intended to, just like history has shown us. In the end, it wouldn't add very many group or VFS guys, and it wouldn't take long before "factory" meant anything but.

Clear as mud right?

 

[goodgrouper]

I was simply stating that I don't think many of us have tried very hard to promote the AR class...myself included.

Well I'm definitely in that boat! But I'm probably not the best ambassador for that class since I can't stand the damn things.................mad: But that's a whole other story.

 

[R. Rains]

Hal,

Well after 9,420 Views and 260 Post.

That is what I have conceived out of this post, and I hope that the people that have replied or who ever reed this post, get off their dead asses and do something about it.

I feel Schooling is a Priority, Clinics before the school, that way they have a little knowledge before the school and are not hit with a bunch of facts and information that they have to try and retain all at one sitting. If we keep their interset at the clinic and then they attend the Schools each year, for the next 5 years, we may have some Great shooter come out of this. Who knows, maybe a TB II.

I also feel Marketing our sport at the Local Gun Shows and little local ranges in our area will stir up interest in our sport. If all us Benchrest Shooters went to our local ranges and asked to demonstrate what we do as benchrest shooters, we would stir up even more interest.

Then add the IBS/NBRSA Booth at the Shot Show each year, and this would generate interest as well as the Big Gun Shows across the country.

As far as the Factory Guns, I am all for the shooting sport no matter what it is, but a factory class gun will never be able to compete at a Benchrest Group Match and achieve the goals we all set as benchrest shooters. If they were to bring in a Factory class, they would either have to be shot at different times at another range, or scored only as a factory class gun, unless they kick the crap out of us so called "Benchrest" Shooters.

I am very impressed with all the replies to this post and I think I may wait a week or two before I start my next train of thought.

I have been accused of being a Rookie or New Shooter Magnet and I will always take the time to help a NEW BENCHREST Shooter and I would hope that EVERYONE here, including Mike from CO., would do the same thing.

My last words on this post will be, "Come On People- we have a GREAT Sport here and I would really like to see it GROW and Prosper, as I feel there are a few more in this sport that feel the same way, so let's make it a point to IMPROVE the sport."

Russell Rains

I think this is the best post regarding the factory class debate so far. What it boils down to in reality is that Hunter class WAS the original "factory" class. I'm all for getting more folks to shoot BR, but I'm just not sure this is the best route. As for AR's, we at FFX Rod & Gun had one of the best programs that I know of because Adrian Van Gorder went out of his way to enlist shooters from wherever he could. We had several matches where as many as 5 or 6 AR's ponied up to the line. I even shot one of mine. That lasted for about 3 or 4 matches, then just petered out completely. JMO, but I don't think that the typical AR guy has the same mindset as a BR guy. Nothing wrong with that, they are just two very different kinds of shooting. Carl Bernosky and others keep proving that the AR platform is a viable one for shooting highpower, which is very competitive and an accuracy discipline, but that doesn't mean it will translate over to the bench.

I believe that the best way to get new shooters in BR is to hold reloading and accuracy clinics, and full blown BR schools. Setting up booths at the local gunshow or swapmeet can also be a good way. We need more doing and less talking about it...

 

[Hunter]

The NBRSA (and probably the IBS) was initially set up as a traditional, short range, group league questing after the ULTIMATE IN ACCURACY…. Those of us that happen to like how things are, don't want anymore divisions or classes brought about just to satisfy or appeal to the "average joe" because we know it only makes us weaker, and we know the "average joe" isn't goint to be interested anyway…. But any class that is created that goes against the Ultimate Pursuit of Accuracy" for whatever reason (be it cost, or availability, participation, or what have you) goes against what the NBRSA and IBS stand for and what their goal is.

Thanks for the history lesson, seriously. Reading about the divide between the “average joe” and those “questing after the ULTIMATE IN ACCURACY,“ I can’t help but wonder if folks who are at the top of the game would like to have a class of their own and not be bothered with folks who have all the right equipment and are willing to travel great distances to matches -- but can’t really run with them?

As for the “average joe [not being] interested anyway,” I assume you consider all factory-class shooters as an “average joe.” I suspect that if “average joe” were allowed to shoot in registered matches alongside folks who are at the top of this game, but allowed to compete in a factory class, there would be a nice turnout of such shooters. As for whether “average joe” eventually started “questing after the ULTIMATE IN ACCURACY” and transitioned into full-custom rigs, I suspect some would -- in fact, I suspect I know several guys tbat might make that transition.

 

[savet06]

I am going to put my money where my mouth was way back on page whatever, and get a benchrest clinic at the start of next season at our club. I had a chance to talk to Bob White this past weekend, incidentally his club kicked our club's butt in a non-registered CT vs NJ group match, and we talked about getting an accuracy class for the start of next season. He told me that the one that he runs in NJ brings in 30-40 shooters and is always well received. I am hoping to contact some well known shooters around here to see if they would like to come down and give some pointers. I think with the right promotion it could bring in shooters from many disciplines and maybe we could snag one or two from the class.
All it takes is a few calls and a few hours of your time.
Russell,
If you have any interest in colaboration my number is on the IBS website under the Bell City range info. Maybe we could get something together for the Dunham's bay crew as well.
Mike

 

[Pete Wass]

Thanks for the history lesson, seriously. Reading about the divide between the “average joe” and those “questing after the ULTIMATE IN ACCURACY,“ I can’t help but wonder if folks who are at the top of the game would like to have a class of their own and not be bothered with folks who have all the right equipment and are willing to travel great distances to matches -- but can’t really run with them?

As for the “average joe [not being] interested anyway,” I assume you consider all factory-class shooters as an “average joe.” I suspect that if “average joe” were allowed to shoot in registered matches alongside folks who are at the top of this game, but allowed to compete in a factory class, there would be a nice turnout of such shooters. As for whether “average joe” eventually started “questing after the ULTIMATE IN ACCURACY” and transitioned into full-custom rigs, I suspect some would -- in fact, I suspect I know several guys tbat might make that transition.

IBS Score Matches have a Factory Class at every one of their matches. There is a VAST dive between Group and Score. While some shoot both very well, most of both sides do not switch back and fourth. If the Factory lads wanna play they are welcome at IBS Score events.

 

[Hunter]

IBS Score Matches have a Factory Class at every one of their matches.

That's not how I interpret the "Classes" column in the schedule shown on the IBS website; however, I've sent an email to the match director of one of those shoots for clarification.