Future of group shooting

[JDS]

Has anyone noticed the age of most of us group shooters? Do you know that the NBRSA membership is around 1300 members? (give or take). match attendance has dropped off dramatically in the SER. I myself am concerned about our sport becoming a BIG match only event. Any discussion? Would we be better off affiliating with the NRA or IBS? I have talked too a few directors and members and they all agree that something needs to be done, But thats as far as it has gone. At our SER UNL/Sporter championship match @ the Rock 18 shooters showed up. Ranges cant make ends meet with that number. Its time for positive action.

 

[pbike]

Yes JD it has been noticed.

In fact last year at the IBS annual meeting in Harrisburg, PA. When score and Group reports were given, it was mentioned that score shooting matches have gone up and attendance has gone up on a whole, but that could be the same shooters or a few less shooters being able to get counted in more aggs, because the average amount of shooters per match has gone down. In the group report it was mentioned thatthe everage number of group shooters per match has gone down to the point that some ranges have cut back and are hosting 2 instead of three matches per year, and some ranges have shut down to IBS group completely. The idea is that less matches will bring out more shooters to each match making it economicaly possible for clubs that want to hold matches. Jef Stover (actng as brand new president) mentioned that he was looking for answers to this problem. It will be interesting to see what he has come up with when we see him this January.

My Father has recently ran an IBS centerfire school that covered short range score and group shooting, also mentions were made to rimfire BR and 600 and 1000 yard BR shooting. Frank Grapone from the original 1000 yard organization was present. The only junior member present at the school was my son he helped run the range crew for target changes and set up of the things needed at the school.

My father has also hosted the Postal series of score matches, Now being run by Steve Grovesner and Jason Stanley, on Stan Wares site www.Bench-talk.com. The idea behind the postal matches was to get "keyboard shooters" and juniors active and aware of true benchrest targets, rifles and competition. Each year my Dad would beat down the doors of manufacturers for prizes and try to get junior shooters involved. David Halblom has given awards to top junior shooters as has Dick Beier, and Chad Schmidt of 10X Bullets, TBob, Randy Robinette and probably others that I can't recall. It's sad to say that this year at the IBS Nationals my son was the only Junior shooting.


People like the names I have mentioned are doing what they can to promote benchrest to Juniors. The only way you can get Juniors shooting is to bring one as I have done for the past 6 years or so. Orland Bunker has his Daughter Hanah shooting, and My Dad used to bring my Niece Janette. She's off to college now. This past September, our friend Jeff Abberegg brought his neighbors son to a match at Holton, he had a great time. Kids don't have the money or the experience to take up BR shooting, they need a push from Grandpa.

 

[Cheechako]

JD

It's only my ignorant farm-boy opinion but I think that any sport or activity that becomes routine becomes boring to the younger generation. Point blank Benchrest became routine about 15 years ago which is why you saw more shooters leaning toward long range and score. When they (LR & Score) reach the same point you'll see a similar trend toward something new.

I started competitive shooting in 1954. Most of the disciplines that I shot back then have either disappeared or changed to the point of being unrecognizable from what they were.

Nothing stays the same or lasts forever. Point blank Benchrest has been around for 65 years now. What surprises me is that its lasted that long.

Ray

 

[jackie schmidt]

Jd

The Gulf Coast Region has also had a noticable drop in members, and also at Match attendance.

Back in the mid 90's, when I started, the norm for the Crawfish, Bluebonnet, and Buffalo Shoot was 80+. Now, (15 years later), we consider a good turnout to be 40.

The shooting has improved greatly, those that are playing the game seem to be very dedicated to excellence, but you can not help but notice the fewer numbers. While we have picked up quite a few new members in recent time, but for every one we pick up, it seems two quit.

At Tomball, we have a strong Club Match program, (we shoot score), dedicated to the purpose of introducing shooters to Extreme Accuracy Shooting. We are having 30+ come out for each of the four matches, but I honestly cannot say how many of these will step into Registered Competition.

The Varmint for Score effort that was just voted in by the NBRSA on a one year trial basis is packaged as a way to garner more members. However, I am not sure just how many shooters who join the NBRSA will in fact start shooting Group.

Maybe the game is too expensive. And, maybe it is too difficult for much of the shooting public. Maybe the game of Benchrest is considered by many in the other shooting communities as "too far removed" from what the masses consider the standard of Firearms performance. Afterall, we are rather one dimensional in what we are trying to accomplish. We don't dress up in "camo" and "play" war, we do not fantisize about blowing someones brains out at 2000 yards, and we don't live in a fantasy world where we are Rambo saving the planet from bad guys. We just sit down and try to stack one bullet on top of another. Or hit a little dot in the middle of a bulls eye. Sounds mundane untill you actually see what it takes to do it.

And then, there is the subject that we simply do not talk about. That is, the Country has changed. People simply do not care. We have an entire generation that believes that playing a video game is the same as doing the real thing, at a fraction of the cost. Look at the popularity of those stupid games like "Wi", "Guitar Wizard", and other "reality" endevours that rerquire only a Television and the Gizmo to run it. Why actually put forth the effort and spend the money to actually do something when you can "feel like" you are doing the something without ever leaving the living room of your house.

My Son-in -Law bought a Guitar Wizard. I refuse to mess with it. I would much rather play some Johnny Cash, Stones, or AC/DC on my Strat than "pretend" on some stupid machine.

Many have said that "dumbing down" Benchrest would help draw more members. Is that where we need to go?? Give everybody a trophy, like they do in Pee-Wee football?? I don't know. I hope not.

We at Tomball are not about to give up. Next year, we are planning on having two Registered Group Matches, two Registered Varmint for Score Matches, and our four Club Matches. That is a lot of shooting.

I think the Denton Club is having about the same effort.

I hope shooters care enough to participate.........jackie

 

[pbike]

Here are a few pictures....

I think somebody forgot to tell these kids that Benchrest is Boring.

 

[Wilbur]

Positive action

What would be considered a positive action and who will implement the action? Are we willing, as individuals, to do more than talk about it?

We've developed programs and assigned committees for as long as I can remember and it ain't working. It's like Amway. You can have all the pyramid parties you want but sooner or later somebody has to get off their buns and sell some soap....lots of soap.

Membership is one problem and match attendance is another. They are related but match attendance is the greater. Solve the attendance problem and membership may follow. In support of that statement, there are 189 SER members and 18 showed up for a regional championship match.

 

[JDS]

Wilbur,
I for one feel that promotion might be an alternative.
Like I said before, Affiliation might be one route. Why not approach the NRA and have a sit down and see if they can or are willing to help. NRA has a world wide audience. Just my thoughts. Any others?

Francis,
Yes, We had only 18 shooters show for the UNL/Sporter SER championship match at the Rock, We had around 40 for the HV/LV SER championship match at Unaka.

 

[Melvin Calliham]

WE are going through the same thing in IHMSA silhouette shooting. Same OLD people like me shooting, with just a very few young shooters.
WE have tried eveything... seminars, open range days to let people shoot our guns, you name it. They all seem to enjoy it when they are there, but never show up for a match!!
The problem is that BR and IHMSA shooting is tough, and it takes dedication to learn the sport, not many are willing to put in the time and practice.
Melvin

 

[Pete Wass]

It has been my opinion

that it's too much to expect of new shooters to have them compete on equal footing with great shooters who have been doing it for years and many of whom have spent untold thousands of dollars in equipment. Every other sport one can think of has an entry level of some sort be it junior to expert or what have you. I think the wall is just too high for many of them. Not many people are willing to take up the challenge to try to best Tony Boyer in their first year of two of shooting I don't believe, not withstanding the other thousand or so who have at least some ability to win a match. Not many of us are that Forrest Gump like.

 

[Cheechako]

. . .The problem is that BR and IHMSA shooting is tough, and it takes dedication to learn the sport, not many are willing to put in the time and practice.
Melvin

Melvin

Not true at all. To be truly competive at any shooting discipline requires dedication, time, and practice. They are all tough in their own way. Benchrest and/or IHMSA are tiny compared to some disciplines. There are some disciplines that will attract more shooters at a single event than some BR clubs will attract in an entire season.

I don't think looking for help from the NRA would result in anything positive. In fact, I think it's been tried already. It would mean affiliating with NRA, having uniform rules adopted, etc, etc. They have much bigger fish to fry.

JMHO

Ray

 

[cdement405]

Amateur opinion

I have to agree with Pete Wass I believe some kind of experience level system needs to be implemented. I have never shot in a group match but would like to start. I purchased a used 6ppc rifle from a machinist at work who did gunsmith work on the side from home. He taught me a lot about group shooting but has since passed away. The sport is very expensive to even remotely compete and I believe the mentality of most Americans is if they do not have a chance to win then why compete. I am pretty sure the barrel of the rifle I bought is shot out but I can shoot groups under .250 on good days. This is definitely not good enough to compete but that being said I still enjoy shooting. I truly believe the decline of the sport can be contributed to many different problems, high cost to compete, tons of practice needed to be competitive and fewer and fewer people in America being interested in shooting at all. Just my opinion though take it with a grain of salt.

 

[jackie schmidt]

cdement

"High cost to compete, tons of practice needed to be competitive"

Isn't that the object of most Competitive Endevours?? To make it where dedication to the Sport rewards those willing to put forth the effort.

But, your point is well taken. If nobody cares, then the last one out of the room can turn off the lights, and lock the door..........jackie

 

[cdement405]

Jackie

Please don't think that I do not care I would hate to see the sport dwindle away before I even get a chance to compete but in my mind you are making my point. I truly believe there are fewer and fewer people in this country that want to put in the time and effort to compete at anything not just group shooting. Unless the mind set of Americans for some reason drastically changes over the next few years I think a lot of things will be going by the wayside. For example, look at the industrial business. It seems to be getting harder and harder to find anybody who wants to do anything but sit behind a computer and cash a paycheck (notice I didn't say earn a paycheck). Who knows, the world is supposed to end in 2012 anyway right. LOL

 

[John Kielly]

My preferred sports are long range belly shooting & at the moment I also shoot 1000 yard bench because it is simpatico.

I think you'll find that the issue is common to all shooting sports, if not sports in general. I suspect that there are a number of contributing factors:

Sports with high entry (equipment) costs seem also to have a steep learning curve. Novices tend to get their butts bit for a long time. Thnk of how a hit & giggle group on the golf course are welcomed by the older members. Consequently, the pros are the old heads & generally, they're also the ones with the folding disposable. Here in Australia, we're attracting most of our new entrants from the retiree belt or the DINKs, both of whom tend to be above average ready to absorb new skills. Spare time comes into it here too.

Excellence is no longer taught as a virtue in scholls or on the sporting field - that SOB who invented T ball should be lynched - and our kids are encouraged to participate without being judged, graded or otherwise discriminated for on the basis of skill. The other world, computer games, panders to this specifically, by publishing cheats or building in other conditions that reward failure as much as success. My lad gave up soccer in the juniors because as a tall gawky lad, he received the same club trophy at the end of the year as the striker who goaled every match - and he knew he was fullback to keep him away from the action.

When it comes to shooting, like it or not, we're losing the propoganda war. Kids generally see firearms negatively for the very obvious reason that a whole lot of them live in environments that are unsafe or less safe because of guns. It takes either a noncritical faith or a damn strong personality to go against that flow. Governments promote this attitude, because like most of the major social issues we face, they don't have an answer that won't cost a motza & we as voters are anal when it comes to governments spending our money.

Finally, there seems to be a strong tendency towards horizontal folk dancing among kids for a good few years after they grow hair on their bellies.

 

[alinwa]

Well put John!

al

 

[Joe Duke]

People are still shooting!

Its interesting that you can come to BR central every year and read a number of posts / long strings concerning "why our sport is not growing / what do we have to do to get new shooters / on and on." At the same time, LSSO (a non sanctioned 400 yard clay target shoot) draws around 52 to 56 shooters twice a year with virtually no publicity efforts. Recently there were about 29 shooters at the inaugural IBS Texas championship score and group match where you got to shoot about 100 rounds each day for $100.00 entry fee. And if you shot well, you could be the very first Texas champion. Or you could win 1/2 off a Viper action with the small group of the match at 200 yards. And there were a slew of other prizes given in addition to trophies, etc. At the same time, there were approximately the same number of folks who showed up and shot the first Water valley shoot. About the same entry fee, pretty good prizes, and the same sort of plaques. But, an unsanctioned shoot with not a great deal of organization. As far as I could tell, there was one short range benchrester at Water Valley and only maybe a couple of us at Denton who would have normally been at the Water Valley.

At Tomball, Jackie is running a very successful club score match where his average attendance this year was 34+, I believe. When It came time for the Denton Shoot, exactly three Tomball competitors were at Denton, and that includes Jackie who normally does not shoot in the match he runs at Tomball.

I said all that to say that organization may well turn some folks off. The other thing that may be at work is the idea that you can't go to the "registered benchrest" matches and compete. That may be true but it is equally true that you can't come to the "redneck shoots" and compete with less than the very best equipment and some pretty good skills to boot. You might could have a few years ago but no longer. But, the folks are showing up at other than sanctioned Benchrest shoots.

Joe

 

[Pete Wass]

I realllllly don't know

what might be a way to find new people but I will say we have attracted a few Retired folks who have jumped in deep buying a new rifle and all that was necessary to compete. They have shot well and seem pleased to be involved. We are pleased to have them. The other side is, over the years, we have lost a lot of good shooters for one reason or another, and they probably will not be coming back. It ain't for everyone and it IS expensive, no question.

What does seem abundantly clear is that nobody involved today seems willing to make much of a change to try something new.

 

[michaelb]

Are the clubs trying to get away from having group matches? I heard one range Director make the comment last year, " hey, we are going to run score matches because the moving backer system is more trouble than its worth."

I'm not implying this to be common among ranges, I'm just wondering if this thought has become a central concern to range operators.

I personally really like shooting group matches. I've shot VFS and long range but prefer group, though I can't pin point a particular reason why.

 

[MikeCTX]

Forgive the intrusion, if you will fellas - outside looking in again.

Some initial thoughts - ammo and firearms sales are through the roof, Cerberus is about to have a IPO for the firearms group under their holdings. Interest in firearms and shooting is apparently as high as it has been in years. I have read through this thread (and others like it on this site) and have to admit there 'should' be a growing interest in the sport.

Why not? This is just from my point of view - I'm over 50, so not really your target group here, but here goes. I have attended exactly one match, everyone was great and I had a really grand time and enjoyed myself. Have I decided to jump in? no - I would like to, after all one of the good folks let me shoot his 6ppc, but then let's see the rifle was probably $2500-$3500, scope another $2000 and the front rest close to $1000, then the reading on here about how many barrels some guys go through at $300-$500 per - well you guys know this is not a sport for the faint of wallet. And I am not saying it is a bad thing - just one factor that might keep folks from jumping in (the stinkin economic conditions are as much a factor these days).

What would make a difference for me - the guys at the match I attended told me to come on out and bring what I have (did I mention these were really great guys?). Job and family obligations have kept me from doing that, plus I have to admit my own abilities - I would like to be able to at least not to terrible when I do show up (yeah I know everyone has to start somewhere).

I think a 'true' factory class would be good - same scopes and all different types of rest, etc. just a factory rifle (much like one used for hunting or used at the local range). Maybe a all caliber match - from the older 219 Donaldson, 222's, 6x47 (not the Lapua one), 6x45 that were once used in BR shooting matches. That way some young shooter could enter and use Grand Dad's old BR rifle to shoot.

Getting the word out - not sure how you do this, but if I had not been coming to this site I would never have known that there were matches in Denton (or any of the other matches in TX's) period. Maybe contact the local big box chain - Cabela's, Bass Pro, fill in your favorite local store and promote the monthly shoots with them. Let the local scouting groups know, not sure if any high school/college in this area have shooting programs but I would sure as heck let them know - maybe Deton could swap with the local 4-H young folks that do target duty for them and pull targets for the young folks while THEY do some shooting (even if it takes the loan of a rifle).

Sorry for the ramble, but did want to share some thoughts...the idea of talking with the NRA mentioned previously sounded good as well.

Thanks Guys

 

[Don]

Its a numbers game.........

Its a numbers game, always has been, always will be.

As has been stated year after year on this messageboard, usually at the beginning of every off-season (right about now), this sport is not an entry level sport, much like auto racing and other equipment intensive competitions, its interests, appeal, and participants matriculate from other shooting endeavors to this pinnical level of accuracy competition.

Because it is a pinnacle sport requiring more; time, money, travel, and technical knowledge than physical proficiency............its the perfect sport for the 40-65 plus year age crowd, always has been, always will be.

The "Bell Curve" tip for the largest populous generation "The Baby Boomers", has now passed and is on the decline for the benchrest target age group of 40-65 plus years of age, so expect a steady decline with a few blips and upticks as other generation peaks pass through, throw in the economy down turn and the sport is maturing about as expected.............Don