harrell measure question

Uthink Uknow said:
R44astro
Take a look at post #38 in this thread. I don't see Larry in that picture. I don't care to go any further than that. I'll PM you.
I thought about it and I won't PM you.
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You will next year
I think you need to think before you post Uknow.
 
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No it is not the latest team.
A new team has qualified for 2015 World championship
Mr Costa is on the team.
Congratulations Mr Costa, and all the other shooters that made the team.
You may want to check the list.
 
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Uthink Uknow said:
That would be Hillario Costa, Larry Costa. He pre-loaded with his favorite load in the middle and went up and down in .1 grains. I'm not sure how far above and below he loaded but he had suitcases full of those little vials. And he won. He used lab grade scales to do his weighing.
And he won and he was on the World Team until this year when health issues kept him from the qualifying matches.
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There you go he use a good scale, when he moves a .1 that is what he does……. With a GD 503 you can hold that .1 change +-.005, so it is a .1 move…. throwing 8208 with the Harrell's measure you can do that, close maybe……… jim
 
PAUL REVERE said:
jim, my testing with oem (milsurplus) 8208, says it is very smooth and consistent in a harrells thrower.
imho one of the reasons it shot so well was that it threw consistently.
imr8208 is a bit longer and thus a little less consistent.
i do not remember the exact numbers, but oem 8202 is plus or minus less than 0.1 around 0.05; imr is around 0.09 again very good.
and n133 is not in the ball park.
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I did shoot the old stuff and it did work good but all i'm saying is maybe they would shoot better if you held a closer tolerance. The new 8208 i tried in the Dasher and it shot ok but it is not even close to RL-15. I have a bunch of it and i use it in the gas gun, and it meters close enough for it. You have to struggle to hold a +-.1, but when you throw light and trickle up to weight with the GD 503, it is easy to hold.01 very easy and most are dead nuts on……. jim
 
I carefully measured a single piece of LT 32, with dial calipers, that I had verified 0 on, and it was .028 in diameter, and .029 long...pretty fine stuff, and in my experience, with a little care, easy to throw within +- .1 gr.
 
Maybe one of these days us short rangers will come out of the dark ages and start preloading and actually utilizing those denver instruments scales we've had on the shelves collecting dust. I guess nobody has ever really thought about it. I see those teen aggs gettin down into the single digits when we do.
 
I just dont think theres a scale that yall approve of that will work at the range. I have scales that measure cut grains of powder but short of a lab type environment i just dont think theyll work. Closest thing i have is a sartorius that has a glass box over the top.
 
I used a Harrel for about a year until a couple months ago I had the opportunity to pick up an old Burno measure. The Harrel would only feel like it crunched every so often 2 out of 5 or 6 throws. As I practiced and weighed my throws the best I could do would be .2 or .3 or so.
The Bruno slightly crunches almost every throw 9 out of 10 even with LT32. The one that does not crunch is the one that weighs off light or heavy. I have learned to immediately reject the one that feels different.
The rest are weighing closer than I could get with the Harrel.

I don't know if the OP shoots short or long range. I would imagine he shoots short range or he wouldn't be throwing. In my limited short range ppc experience the changing conditions through out the day has a great deal more of an impact on the group than a slight variation in weight of powder.
Im behind the changes all day and constantly playing catch up.
I don't think the guys at the top and winning are worrying a lot about slight variations from throw to throw they're doing a better job than everybody else reading the conditions and changing as needed to stay in tune
Strictly talking of short range that is all I have a very small amount of experience in.

Just get out there throw your powder and shoot. That's the best advise I can give
 
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Tim Singleton said:
Just get out there throw your powder and shoot. That's the best advise I can give
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Something to think about boys and girls. Supposedly the "node" changes about every 0.3 grains of V133. Weigh some of your throws and you will probably find a variation, sometimes, as much as 0.5 grains...so. Anyhow what is the best I could do by Culver or conventional volumetric measures. I have a Harrels, two Neil Jones, a RCBS, two types of Redding measures, a slew of Lee and home made dippers, even a George Leonard Herters Model Perfect, none of which will do better on a 9 out of 10 samples than 0.3.

On the road I carry 2 Chargemasters and battery packs. Does that help, can't hurt to be within 0.1 grains every throw can it?
 
Question

If one used a miligram Sartorius scale at home and placed the charges in vials to load at the range. What do you think the SD should be showing over the chronograph for VV N-133 loads weighed to 0.00X ?
Centerfire
 
Id like for somebody to test that. Id love to see what the sd is. I can handle the tension part if itll make a difference
 
jim1K said:
The part that gets me is who uses a scale that can measure .001 of a Gr. most have sales that go one or maybe two places but not three so you don't really know what it's doing. I have a Harrell's measure that set no less than 6 records and it will not reliably hold a .1…… It has 6 clicks with the bearings and it isn't fine enough to use for long range. I can see a change in the group at .05 let alone a whole .1 with a Dasher, so maybe at short range you would what to try a little finer powder charge….. they may just shoot smaller. I do all my load development at 100 yds. and i have shot a number of .040's with a long range light gun…… jim
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I use a scale with a resolution of .001 reason being no matter how accurate a scale is they have a tolerance on the load cell a scale with a .1 reading typically has a tolerance of +/- .1 a scale with a .01 readability load cell accuracy is +/- .01 my scales load cell accuracy is +/- .002
So a scale with +/- .1 actual can be .2 grains difference but I've also found that not be case it can read say 32.0 grains and weigh it on a precisin scale and it'll be off as much as .3-.4 grains. Scales that measure .01 real readings can be off as much as .04 grains so a scale that will read out one more decimal only assures a bit more accurate charge. The scales that read .00 places are excellent for what we do as in reality we can't control our powder that close if using stick powders. One kernel of Varget is .02 grains H1000 is .04-.05 H4350 is .03. The only way to get exact measurements is using a very fine ball powder.

I don't shoot point blank competition but I am aware ES and SD is a none factor for you guys most will agree and your groups and aggs prove that. You guys are much better at tuning I think say than us long range shooters, but we load more precisely over you guys is because we have to we need single digit ES and SD and we need our charges to be within +/- .02 grains of our target load. I've tried my best to hold my loads to exact or within .01 grains or +/- .005 and its just impossible to do such.

Think about it if using Varget and each kernel is .02 grains and a scale has a resolution of +/- .1 or a total of .2 grains over all that's 10 kernels of powder.

One more thing if you're using a scale that reads down to .01 grains unless you have it on a line conditioner where it cleans the power and puts out the exact amount of current each time you're just wasting time on weighing your charges on those scales.

I'm sure I've not said anything here you guys already don't know or are aware of, maybe some don't realize the accuracy of a load cell and you won't unless you have a scale that will weigh charges down .001 grains. My numbers given are from my experience using a chargemaster also a DI scale that reads .01 and a DI scale that reads down to .001 but I'm no expert and many here knows more than I'll ever know. I just know what works best for me just as you all know what works best for you. That's the most important factor in my opinion. The rest is luck and able to see a switch in wind most don't see.
 
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James n TN said:
I'm sure I've not said anything here you guys already don't know or are aware of, maybe some don't realize the accuracy of a load cell and you won't unless you have a scale that will weigh charges down .001 grains. My numbers given are from my experience using a chargemaster also a DI scale that reads .01 and a DI scale that reads down to .001 but I'm no expert and many here knows more than I'll ever know. I just know what works best for me just as you all know what works best for you. That's the most important factor in my opinion. The rest is luck and able to see a switch in wind most don't see.
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James, what is your finding of your Chargemasters repeatability range? I've never really wrung out any of the 3 I have except with a RCBS Model 90 measure I keep just for close stuff. The RCBS Model 90 was made for RCBS by Ohaus and was supposed to be the best on the market at the time it was being offered. (It should have been good since it sold for over $400 at the time).
 
Dusty Stevens said:
Id like for somebody to test that. Id love to see what the sd is. I can handle the tension part if itll make a difference
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I have an added request if someone is testing this. Since the current thought on the function of a good tune is positive compensation, (compensating for velocity variations), I'd like to see what happens to an out of tune ppc between loads with a few tenths variation versus precision weighed loads with extremely low velocity spreads. The theory suggests your goups would get much smaller. If this turns out to be true, it would be damn hard to argue precision weighing isn't important in short range BR. Unless you can keep it spot on right in tune all the time.
 
JerrySharrett said:
James, what is your finding of your Chargemasters repeatability range? I've never really wrung out any of the 3 I have except with a RCBS Model 90 measure I keep just for close stuff. The RCBS Model 90 was made for RCBS by Ohaus and was supposed to be the best on the market at the time it was being offered. (It should have been good since it sold for over $400 at the time).
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Jerry,

I've tuned adjusted and done all the tricks and tips one can think of to get the chargemaster to run as accurately as possible. I've seen just a few times mine be set at 32.5 grains and read exactly that and be off .4 grains this hasn't happened often but once is all it takes to blow a great agg at 600 or worse 1000 yards. Here's the thing I've also noticed its most accurate with powders such as IMR 4064 over anything I've ran thru it. It's least accurate using ball. Powders or flaked powders. I'm guessing mainly because the load cell just isn't accurate and sensitive enough to pick up a few kernels of these powders as its trickling it to the desired weight.
98% of the time it's going to be within .1 grains +/- if you're adjusted the parementers and using the straw method, in my case I'm using a ink pen that's tapered down at the writing point. but be aware that .4 off drop may even hurt you in short range if it happens say once every 300 throws.

My second chargemaster I've not done anything to it as for reprogramming as I've found the factory tune works decent for my magnums using powders such as H1000 and Retumbo. But still it will read those powders differently from what the scale says and it actually is. And again between both on an overall avg it's going to be +/- .1 grains.

Once it beeps give it a few seconds to settle in before you pick the pan off the scale. It'll sometimes float to the next .1 grain if it's off any.
 
James n TN said:
I use a scale with a resolution of .001 reason being no matter how accurate a scale is they have a tolerance on the load cell a scale with a .1 reading typically has a tolerance of +/- .1 a scale with a .01 readability load cell accuracy is +/- .01 my scales load cell accuracy is +/- .002
So a scale with +/- .1 actual can be .2 grains difference but I've also found that not be case it can read say 32.0 grains and weigh it on a precisin scale and it'll be off as much as .3-.4 grains. Scales that measure .01 real readings can be off as much as .04 grains so a scale that will read out one more decimal only assures a bit more accurate charge. The scales that read .00 places are excellent for what we do as in reality we can't control our powder that close if using stick powders. One kernel of Varget is .02 grains H1000 is .04-.05 H4350 is .03. The only way to get exact measurements is using a very fine ball powder.

I don't shoot point blank competition but I am aware ES and SD is a none factor for you guys most will agree and your groups and aggs prove that. You guys are much better at tuning I think say than us long range shooters, but we load more precisely over you guys is because we have to we need single digit ES and SD and we need our charges to be within +/- .02 grains of our target load. I've tried my best to hold my loads to exact or within .01 grains or +/- .005 and its just impossible to do such.

Think about it if using Varget and each kernel is .02 grains and a scale has a resolution of +/- .1 or a total of .2 grains over all that's 10 kernels of powder.

One more thing if you're using a scale that reads down to .01 grains unless you have it on a line conditioner where it cleans the power and puts out the exact amount of current each time you're just wasting time on weighing your charges on those scales.

I'm sure I've not said anything here you guys already don't know or are aware of, maybe some don't realize the accuracy of a load cell and you won't unless you have a scale that will weigh charges down .001 grains. My numbers given are from my experience using a chargemaster also a DI scale that reads .01 and a DI scale that reads down to .001 but I'm no expert and many here knows more than I'll ever know. I just know what works best for me just as you all know what works best for you. That's the most important factor in my opinion. The rest is luck and able to see a switch in wind most don't see.
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James, what scale are you using that that has a resolution of .001 but is only accurate to +-.1? My GD503 is a magnetic force registration and i hold +-.01 with RL-15 and the kernels vary in weight some as low as .005…….. and i can hold +-.01 on this certified scale… jim
 
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