harrell measure question

I very rarely even weigh my powder.
I know my lower and upper ranges of powder charges, and have a starting point.
We all know when we tune on Thursday and Friday it does not always work on match day.
I turn the knob on my measure untill I get it tuned, if you guessed right good.
If you guessed wrong then you have to go up or down on the charge.
So I spend time looking at the groups to see what I have to do, that comes with experience.
The only way you can learn it is to do it, up or down on powder
The rifle will tell you what it wants
We just have to be smart enough to listen to it
Spend more time tuning don't worry about the weight all the time.untill you get it tuned.
That doesn't mean the same load will work next weekend.
If it doesn't usually going up 2 clicks or down 2 clicks
Untill it groups
I get asked all the time on how much powder I am shooting, I say not sure then we will weigh it.
So weighing powder is the last thing on my mind at a match.
Adjust your measure till the gun shoots then weigh it.
 
TylerT said:
I very rarely even weigh my powder.
I know my lower and upper ranges of powder charges, and have a starting point.
We all know when we tune on Thursday and Friday it does not always work on match day.
I turn the knob on my measure untill I get it tuned, if you guessed right good.
If you guessed wrong then you have to go up or down on the charge.
So I spend time looking at the groups to see what I have to do, that comes with experience.
The only way you can learn it is to do it, up or down on powder
The rifle will tell you what it wants
We just have to be smart enough to listen to it
Spend more time tuning don't worry about the weight all the time.untill you get it tuned.
That doesn't mean the same load will work next weekend.
If it doesn't usually going up 2 clicks or down 2 clicks
Untill it groups
I get asked all the time on how much powder I am shooting, I say not sure then we will weigh it.
So weighing powder is the last thing on my mind at a match.
Adjust your measure till the gun shoots then weigh it.
Click to expand...

This post says it all.
How could you keep a gun tuned if all your charges had to be within .00001 grains?
At any yardage.
All I want for xmas is a hummer barrel!
 
For calibers that I load at the range, I never weigh charges. What would be the point? I note the measure technique, because I have used more than one, and the measure setting. My Harrell measure has six divisions between numbers. I note seater setting as the length of the assembled stem and cap of a particular seater, and the bushing that I used, along with ambient conditions.
 
george in KY said:
alinwa said:
BULLPOOP
Used by many as a kinder alternative to bull. Also used by the younger crowd so they wont get their filthy mouths washed out with soap by their parents.

Something that you will inevitably step in when you are walking around a fair.
Aww c'mon mom, why does Timmy get some cake and I don't? This is bullpoop!

Hey man, you just stepped in some bullpoop!
Dammit, these are my new Jordans!

lol your the only one ranting or raving. i could care less just posted my findings on video for all to see take it any way you want it.
i dont need to prove a thing.

but now al i gota ask..do you think a say a 600 yard load as to be MORE accurate than a 100 load in IBS/NBRSA/NRA ?
Click to expand...
If 600 yard load has to be more accurate than a 100 or 200 yard load, would a long yange shooter please teach me. Cause I am sure I would win all yardages and both Nationals next year.
Bill
Click to expand...
 
TylerT said:
The rifle will tell you what it wants
We just have to be smart enough to listen to it
Click to expand...

Todd, I was thinking of a corollary to your statement above after the match at Albuquerque last weekend.

The conditions tell the bullet where to go. If we're surprised, we're not paying attention.
 
PAUL REVERE said:
again , mixing apples( short range) and oranges( long range) and trying to apply the same rules...
life does not work that way.
the poor powder control used on short range will never work well at long range........
this happens every time this subject comes up........
the charge master is a great tool for short range...because with the tools used a tenth of a grain seems to mean nothing...
n133 seems to have a wide sweet spot...so "close" is good enough.
go ask a long range winner if he thinks plus or minus .2 or .3 is acceptable at 1000 yds ??
no way..the vertical would kill you.
again apples and oranges.....
to the guy that claims he can throw to 0.001 of an inch...prove it.....
pick a load..shoot it and then prove you can pick the next charge and tell BEFORE HAND what the new group size will be...to .001.
sounds great...but just more short range bs....
Click to expand...

OK Paul, you claim that .2 gn deviation in powder charge will kill you on vertical. So show us the figures. How many thousandths of an inch deviation in the vertical plane will a .2 gn powder deviation cause? Pick a caliber, cartridge and powder that you like for 1000 yd shooting and show us the numbers. When I was shooting Palma I believe that I used 45.8 gn of Varget with a 155 gn Sierra .30 cal MK bullet to shoot at 1000 yards. Cmon Paul, pick a cartridge and dazzle us with your brilliance.
 
PAUL REVERE said:
again , mixing apples( short range) and oranges( long range) and trying to apply the same rules...
life does not work that way.
the poor powder control used on short range will never work well at long range........
this happens every time this subject comes up........
the charge master is a great tool for short range...because with the tools used a tenth of a grain seems to mean nothing...
n133 seems to have a wide sweet spot...so "close" is good enough.
go ask a long range winner if he thinks plus or minus .2 or .3 is acceptable at 1000 yds ??
no way..the vertical would kill you.
again apples and oranges.....
to the guy that claims he can throw to 0.001 of an inch...prove it.....
pick a load..shoot it and then prove you can pick the next charge and tell BEFORE HAND what the new group size will be...to .001.
sounds great...but just more short range bs....
Click to expand...

Mikeinstool…

It seems like you asked about Benchrest shooting competitions close to your home location a few months ago, and a few members recommended the Whittington Center outside Raton, NM. This is right about the time you got canned from the site. Seems like something about calling George Ulrich a lemming, or was it one of your other brilliant nuggets??

Anyway, you had some excuse as to why you couldn’t make it… I can’t remember what it was.

There will be four registered short range BR matches this next year at Raton.

Here is the deal of the day for you.

I will pay for your entry fee to any of those four matches. Hell, I’ll even reserve a room and pay for it, if you’ll show up and shoot both days. Just load your stuff in a vehicle and come on down.

I’m interested in your expertise and would hope you would share it with us ignorant, redneck, short-range Benchrest shooters. I mean, to hear you talk about it, how hard could it be, right?? And, id love to hear more about the “short range bs…” you speak of.

Also, what I’m most interested in is if you are as mouthy standing face to face with someone as you are over the internet. I’m guessing not.

So, what do you say??
 
What id like to see is if a championship winning 1000yd rifle can actually agg next to a finely tuned br rifle at 100 or 200yd.
 
Short Range Benchrest

Paul R or Mikeinstool please lets us know when you will be taking afrench up on his offer as I will make a special effort to be there. Very nice offer Mr. Afrench!

Shooters > when ToddT comments on here you should listen, he is one of the top short range shooters in the world. I don't care whether it is short range, long range or medium range > something can be learned if you listen.
Thanks Todd for sharing.

MAC
 
PAUL REVERE said:
while semi-retired, i still work occassionaly.
what are the dates.
i shot the northwest 1000 yd championships on one southern date, and worked the next one..i did look.
if we can find an open date i should be able to take you up on your offer.
Click to expand...

Mike,

i haven't seen any confirmed dates for the Raton matches yet, but don't worry. We'll keep you posted.

they are usually the same time of the month each year.

first one is at the end of May
then mid June
end of July
and mid August
 
Dustin
One more thing on the Harrells
I take mine apart once a year or when needed to clean.
Simple to disassemble, on mine take the handle off and pull out the Culver assembly.
Look for dirt, burrs.etc
Harrells has fantastic service.
Winter is coming up, best time to service all of your equipment.
If you are still worried about the measure, call them and send it back.
They will make you happy.
Some of the best customer service around, that is important.
And I really appreciate it.
Todd
 
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adamsgt said:
OK Paul, you claim that .2 gn deviation in powder charge will kill you on vertical. So show us the figures. How many thousandths of an inch deviation in the vertical plane will a .2 gn powder deviation cause? Pick a caliber, cartridge and powder that you like for 1000 yd shooting and show us the numbers. When I was shooting Palma I believe that I used 45.8 gn of Varget with a 155 gn Sierra .30 cal MK bullet to shoot at 1000 yards. Cmon Paul, pick a cartridge and dazzle us with your brilliance.
Click to expand...


I'm not Paul but i will tell you that you are wrong……… I shoot a Dasher and i have a fair share of wins and records and .2 variation in powder charge will kill you at 1000. You bring your best Palma gun to a Br. match and i will bet you won't make the shoot off. The 10 ring is 7" and the X is 3" ……… You had best be able to put 10 in 4" and no spotters you had better be able to read the wind………. Jim O'Hara
 
jim1K said:
I'm not Paul but i will tell you that you are wrong……… I shoot a Dasher and i have a fair share of wins and records and .2 variation in powder charge will kill you at 1000. You bring your best Palma gun to a Br. match and i will bet you won't make the shoot off. The 10 ring is 7" and the X is 3" ……… You had best be able to put 10 in 4" and no spotters you had better be able to read the wind………. Jim O'Hara
Click to expand...

I concede. I ran some loads through Quickload with the 155 gn Sierra bullet. I used 43.3, 43.5 and 43.7 to calculate muzzle velocities. I got 2668,2680 and 2691, respectively. For some reason Quicktarget didn't want to execute on my computer so I used RSI shooting lab to do the external ballistic calculations. Using the 2680 as the mid the difference at 1000 yds was -2.7" for the low and 2.3" for the high giving an overall spread of 5.0. You're right and I'm wrong. However that's only the mathematics of it. It completely ignores the issue of barrel harmonics where if you get to have the bullet exit at the top of it's movement the velocity difference won't have as much effect. However you don't want to go to the line with a built-in deficit potential.

As far as Palma is concerned, that is shot with match sights not a 50 power scope. So that's not really comparable. When the F-class shooters started shooting all X's on the Palma targets they had to come up with a new target with smaller scoring rings due to the advantage the scopes gave to the F-class shooters. Through the winter I'm going to try to convert my Palma rifle to an F-class rifle. I bought one of the 2014 Nightforce Competition scopes and have designed a skid to go under the buttstock on the Millenium rifle. I also bought a lab scale that uses the magnetic force restoration technology so I should be able to come up with better powder loads. That should keep me occupied for a bit.
 
Jerry, I am very particular about three issues at long range and that is bullets, neck tension and weighing powder and i hold that to .01 and not +- .01 but +-.005. Do you need it ……. maybe not but i learned in short range leave nothing to chance. ………. jim
 
Yea i think theres some mis information out there. Nobody at the top of a winners list just haphazardly throws powder at plus minus .1 or .2. And most of the time not all the time they have a neil jones measure on their bench. Im just going by what I actually see and do I cant account for others that shoot in smaller shoots I may not have attended
 
george in KY said:
ok then.
you stated .4 variance (quote) go read what i posted....
i did not say a .2 variation..i said plus or minus .2..that is a .4 variation.
then up to .2-.3 (quote) we have DOCUMENTED several times by several users......that thrown v133 is typically plus or minus 0.2-0.3.....
where is this documentation ? did they win a match ?
Click to expand...



The part that gets me is who uses a scale that can measure .001 of a Gr. most have sales that go one or maybe two places but not three so you don't really know what it's doing. I have a Harrell's measure that set no less than 6 records and it will not reliably hold a .1…… It has 6 clicks with the bearings and it isn't fine enough to use for long range. I can see a change in the group at .05 let alone a whole .1 with a Dasher, so maybe at short range you would what to try a little finer powder charge….. they may just shoot smaller. I do all my load development at 100 yds. and i have shot a number of .040's with a long range light gun…… jim
 
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