what Cal

[Joe Salt]

Cease Fire

Ok Guys the testosterone is getting a little too much! I've been shooting 1000 yard BR for 30+ years and have never long range hunted. But I do know most of the guys that do, and believe me I would want these guys on my side if someday the s### hits the fan. Now if I can hit a clay bird at 1000 yards on my second shot, no matter which way the wind is blowing then I believe these men can do what they say. And if I'm correct they do not take the first shot at the animal, they zero in on something the same distance then it's lights out. If you have ever seen the equipment they have you would understand. And no its not for everyone, kind of like working in a slaughterhouse. How many of you can do that? But we still like the meat. So let's get back to how we can improve on our shooting and I'd like to know more about neck tension, annealing and how much a difference those things play in high and low shots.
Joe Salt

 

[WINMOD70]

OK guess I way in now as this did not die the death I hoped it would.

Lynn is correct, I directed the shooter to another site where his question would not stir up this firestorm and be a more appropriate forum.

LR hunting is an individual "ethical" issue and no one can dictate what is the correct ethical answer as a universal all encompassing statement. I teach hunter ed, normally the ethics class and live in "dog" country. Want to stir up a fist fight, talk dog hunting for deer with a guy who lives in the West vs the South Eastern guys and now throw the "newly arrived rural city slicker" who goes "Oh my god, they are shooting Bambi."

We have all seen hunters where their limit should be 10 yards, tied to a stakes by all four legs with a 10 ft wide metal funnel directing the shots.

I have seen a Missouri mule checked in as a doe, a billy goat as a spike and a turkey buzzard as a turkey. Yet all shot close range, so so much for SR being the ethical standard. By the way what are the exact SR ethical limits?

I will say the guys at the check station were admirable. In all cases they did not laugh (until they left) and were very helpful in directing them where to go to have them processed for the freezer.

I also hunt/hunted with bow (longbow, recurve, compound and selfbow). Now most uninformed archery neophytes would say that is "unethical" to use a self bow, homemade wood arrows and obsidian arrowheads. Yes for them I am sure it is. However for an archer who practices with those arrows, limits his shots to carefully selected (that means a lot of deer passed up for angle and over 20 yards) and knows that a proper obisidian head is sharper than a razor, it is not unethical. Change those parameters and now it probably is unethical. Hmmm, maybe those same type standards should apply to all hunters LR and SR.

Bottom line, We all need to understand that circumstances, skills, experience and other factors play into what is ethical and what is not for each individual. What is ethical in one region might not be in another, what is ethical in one country is not in another, what is ethical for one person might not be for another. Those things do not make one hunter or group of hunters wrong or right or ethical or unethical.

Bottom line, ethical biases, and discussions are driven by regional influences, personal beliefs, skills and desires and you can never win the arguement for either side. You can only hopefully understand the differences and issues and agree to disagree that your bias and beliefs are not the deciding factor for every hunter.

BH

This is meant as comedy but is anything past 20 yards considering LR bow shooting? Would 40 yard shots raise the cantor of ethical bowhunters?

 

[BountyHunter]

It was comedic but to illustrate the point. Nothing personal, but you fell into the trap of again trying to establish a magical distance as "THE ethical standard" in your question about 40 yards.

You made my point perfectly, you are trying to use ones person's skills as compared against the majority and say somehow that should be the ethical standard for all regardless. It does not and should not work that way.

40 yards for some bowhunters is a gimmee chip shot, others not in a million years. With high winds and in a moving tree, most standards tighten up quite a bit too so maybe 40 might go to 25 that day.

LR bowhunting for one person might be 20 yards, yet I have seen guys put 4 arrows in a pie plate at 100 and take big game at slightly over that distance. Howard Hill did the same and with a long bow. I think you would agree, that any archer that can win 134 straight tournaments might be slightly more skilled than the "pack" and his abilities and ensuing ethical standards were waaay longer than mine or yours.

There is no universal fits all standard! Your personal beliefs, desires and limitations does not and should not make the next persons ethical boundries.

BH

 

[WINMOD70]

It was comedic but to illustrate the point. Nothing personal, but you fell into the trap of again trying to establish a magical distance as "THE ethical standard" in your question about 40 yards.

You made my point perfectly, you are trying to use ones person's skills as compared against the majority and say somehow that should be the ethical standard for all regardless. It does not and should not work that way.

40 yards for some bowhunters is a gimmee chip shot, others not in a million years. With high winds and in a moving tree, most standards tighten up quite a bit too so maybe 40 might go to 25 that day.

LR bowhunting for one person might be 20 yards, yet I have seen guys put 4 arrows in a pie plate at 100 and take big game at slightly over that distance. Howard Hill did the same and with a long bow. I think you would agree, that any archer that can win 134 straight tournaments might be slightly more skilled than the "pack" and his abilities and ensuing ethical standards were waaay longer than mine or yours.

There is no universal fits all standard! Your personal beliefs, desires and limitations does not and should not make the next persons ethical boundries.

BH

There is common sense and anybody that thinks lobbing rounds at animals a 1000 yards away is hunting needs help but then you did admit to carrying sticks and a string. Next you'll probably tell me you climb trees and "ethically" ambush your prey, please.

 

[4Mesh]

I see guys all over this forum with "Super Moderator" status. Would one of you please take a minute to do your super thing and nix this thread. Or at least lock it if you think there is even a shred of good info here.

Hermann,

Thanks for the reply. I have not laughed that hard in a long time. Then it got better when I told our Office guy here at work about it and he said that here, he saw a Holstein Calf come in tagged for a Doe!

 

[AlanF]

I see guys all over this forum with "Super Moderator" status. Would one of you please take a minute to do your super thing and nix this thread...

I'll second that. It is not good to widely publicise those types of shooting which are highly controversial. It rubs off on all shooting sports, and only helps the anti-gun lobby to achieve their ultimate aim which is zero public ownership of guns. It is not just a question of ethics, but of real world politics.

Alan

 

[Lynn]

Alan F and Joe Salt

It is not good to widely publicise those types of shooting which are highly controversial.

You post from one of the worst countries in the world on firearms and offer us advice.You are the definition of Anti.

It rubs off on all shooting sports, and only helps the anti-gun lobby to achieve their ultimate aim which is zero public ownership of guns.

Alan we can all read on the internet how your opinion helped your country out and all I can say to that is please don't help us like you helped yourself.

It is not just a question of ethics, but of real world politics.

We all can read what happened to gun ownership in your country and I repeat myself we don't want or need that kind of help.

Joe Salt
I know your from the Pennsylvania area but I just wrote you in as my candidate for president.You understand how it is done and what it takes.Your not some emotional wreck flying off the handle sporting BS you are a informed poster.
Lynn

 

[Dan Frazier]

what cal

OK guys
enuogh is enough!
JUST REMBER UNITED WE STAND DEVIDED WE FALL.

 

[Tod Soeby]

I'll second that. It is not good to widely publicise those types of shooting which are highly controversial. It rubs off on all shooting sports, and only helps the anti-gun lobby to achieve their ultimate aim which is zero public ownership of guns. It is not just a question of ethics, but of real world politics.

Alan

That's pure krap...The anti gun lobby will never be happy until all the guns are gone...PERIOD...They say "Just get rid of guns A & B, then we will be happy". Guns A & B go away......and guess what? Guns C, D, & E should go away. "We respect your 2nd amendment rights, but it doesn't say anything in the 2nd about C ,D, & E"!! And they go away also. ECT...ECT..........THEY WANT THEM ALL GONE. Were is it in the 2nd amendment that "people" should have target rifles that shoot 1000 yard,s. You sure as hell don't need them to live...to defend your self!!! They should also be banned. Don't believe me .......ASK THE 50 CAL BUNCH!!! Find me 1 crime committed with a 50 cal. Just one. "Why on earth would you NEED a 50 cal"? Now they are on the anti's hit list.

I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT LR HUNTING ANY MORE(I gave that up 15 post's ago) I AM TALKING ABOUT THE 2ND AMENDMENT.....MY RIGHT AS A U.S. CITIZEN TO OWN GUNS. I'M SORRY, BUT YOU FOLKS FROM SOMEPLACE OTHER THAN THE USA, (THE PLACES WHERE YOU ALREADY LOST MOST OF YOUR RIGHTS) NEED NOT RESPOND.

TOD

 

[PPP MMM]

For Lynn and those like him

I've put some serious thinking into this 1K hunting and as you say there are many on this forum who're just here to learn, me included. I've red through the posts and it looks like that's what/how you guys do and apparently are very good at it. I've looked at the Benchrest 1K Results page of the best groups 2007 and 253 in the light gun class (5 shots) and 367 in the heavy gun class (10 shots) were better than 10". I didn't counted how many of these grous were shot with small calibres that aren't suitable for 1K deer hunting. I didn't also counted how many names were repeated over and over again to shoot these 620/4935shots into less than 10" circle at 1K. No doubt about you guys, you know what you'r doing. 8-10" is the absolute minimum what's needed and what a Mr. Average 30-30 open sights/off hand would do in a hurry at 100yards. One needs to be fair and say, that there is not a difference between these two groups of people. By having said that, to compare the precise preparation of the ammo of the benchrest guy, is no comparison to the Mr. Av.30-30 bloke. The competetive, precision orientated mind of the benchrest guy wanting to hit the live target with the same precision like if it was the X ring on the paper target must also count highly and tip the scales in his favour. The risk that the animal will move during the time laps, is not any different to the risk posed by shooting through branches and bushes at 100yards. I know for fact that 200gr Sierra SPBT isn't as accurate as 200gr SMK and I have absolutely no idea how they would perform on game at 1500-1700fps. I have absolutely no idea if 200SMK would even open at that speed. I supose that you have a good knowledge of what works and what doesn't also. Now when I know more about your shooting practices and skills I von't call you an imbecile, but I'll keep doing as what I've always been doing. Call the quits at 250metres.

Shoot well
Peter

 

[PPP MMM]

Tod

I've red somewhere on the Internet that in NSW which is one of the states in Australia, that the State government was apparently promoting recreational target shooting/culling pests in parks/state forests with families in mind. True or not, it was apparently as a part of the state's pre election "silent" campaign. Even I don't believe everything what I read on the Internet it's quiet interesting.

Shoot well
Peter

 

[Lynn]

Ppp Mmm

Peter I have no idea if they even have any decent animals in Australia to shoot at 1000 yards but I doubt it.
I do have first hand knowledge of how they hunt in New Zealand and I know what $15,000 will buy you there.I wouldn't even put horns gotten in that style of hunting into my house and that to me is not being a sportsman at all.
We should remember were are on this site to give a positive approach to fresh questions and leave the morals and ethics to the old women at the beauty parlor.
Lynn

 

[Charles E]

4-Mesh:

I've just glanced at this thread, and it seems borderline. With the "power" to eliminate a thread also comes a lot of responsibility.

It's generally been my experience that those who most loudly insist on free speech really want a free audience, and are only concerned about their opinions, not anyone else's. I'll take them on when I have to, but I'd just as soon not get them all over my tail.

Partly because I have a side (roughly the same as your opinion), I haven't removed the thread. If youy think it's bad enough, email Wilbur or Elmer.

Best,

Charles

 

[PPP MMM]

Lynn

Peter I have no idea if they even have any decent animals in Australia to shoot at 1000 yards but I doubt it.
I do have first hand knowledge of how they hunt in New Zealand and I know what $15,000 will buy you there.I wouldn't even put horns gotten in that style of hunting into my house and that to me is not being a sportsman at all.
We should remember were are on this site to give a positive approach to fresh questions and leave the morals and ethics to the old women at the beauty parlor.
Lynn

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

1.5-2metre long horn water buffalos, thousands of donkeys, about 5 different deer, thousands of camels, crocs, scrub wild cattle etc. You have to go there actually to see it to believe it.
That blue stocked rig on your website, what's it? Action/cal/stock/barrel?

Shoot well
Peter

 

[AlanF]

That's pure krap...The anti gun lobby will never be happy until all the guns are gone...PERIOD

And if read you my post Tod, that's pretty much what I said.

But there is a limit to what a shooter is prepared to defend on behalf of other shooters. You will no doubt have your own limits, and if you see shooters overstepping them, would make some effort to change their ways, or at least not try to promote it publicly. The anti-gun lobby in Australia sees what goes on the US, and uses it as propaganda here. And Australian society at large is generally soft and generally left wing. The voting power is in the cities where few people have guns. So it would do us shooters in Australia a favour if some of the more controversial shooting activities in the US were toned down.

If this thread doesn't get deleted (I would prefer it did), then I'll continue to argue that long range "hunting" should not be supported by the shooting community.

Alan

 

[alinwa]

I don't normally opine on the "hunting threads", let alone the "ethical hunting threads" but I feel compelled to get into this one.





I've spent years behind the desk in three gunstores that were also Registration Stations. I teach Hunter Education, ethics is one of my subjects. WE ALL need to preach the subject of ethical hunting. I quit hunting conventionally with a rifle 25yrs ago specifically because in my limited experience plain ol' rifle hunters were far and away the worst offenders in this area. I switched to bow hunting and hyper-long range hunting specifically BECAUSE it was held to a higher standard!


That said, since this isn't a hunting forum I agree that threads like this be opened on general discussion instead of here.


Ohhh yeahhh......and we had a guy try to register a goat at our store. An acquaintance of mine sold a dressed out pony intended for dogfood to a MPLS "hunter" and the owner's wolfhound got shot (but not registered) for a deer.


al

 

[4Mesh]

Comon Al, you love hunting threads! Admit it!

Charles,

if it's ok with you it tickles the ____ outa me! I will admit it has entertainment value! Honestly, the only post that should remain is the one from Herman. It pretty much sums it up.

 

[ballistic64]

So it would do us shooters in Australia a favour if some of the more controversial shooting activities in the US were toned down. Alan

Feel free to come on over and disarm all the criminals.

 

[Lynn]

PPP MMM and Alan

Peter
The gun on the website is one of my older 300 Ackley's.I have 6 heavyguns and they are by far my favorite things to shoot.It has a 36 inch long barrel on it 1.750 diameter for its full length.The aluminum bedding block is 9 inches long and it sits in a Shehane laminated heavygun stock.The action is a 700 Remington with a dual bushed bolt,bushed firing pin,sako extractor,BAT handle glued into a Speedy G sleeve.The stock was coated with polyurethane clearcoat and blue pearl by Michael Kavanaugh.

Alan
I think it would be best for your cause to work on your end of the ocean first.Before going international with your cause it is usually best to have some kind of a proven track record first.It has also been posted that the quickest way for a thread to drop off of the forum is to quit posting on it.
The fact that your record of protecting gun rights in Australia shows little or no improvement means your not getting through to the people that count.Pretty soon all of your Swords will be taken away as well.Ooooppss my bad you already lost that battle as well.Why on earth would anyone would come on a forum like this to promote the banning of one of our beloved sports behoves me.I can only imagine it worked for yourself in Australia and you are now trying it here?
Lynn

 

[Charles E]

Charles,

if it's ok with you it tickles the ____ outa me! I will admit it has entertainment value! Honestly, the only post that should remain is the one from Herman. It pretty much sums it up.

Look at it this way -- a wonderful opportunity to build up your ignore list. There are some threads where I don't see 90% of the posts, 'cause the poster's are on my ignore list.