what Cal

[Tod Soeby]

Not to pick on you but where does fair chase come in with this long range "hunting". To me an animal being shot at in the 1000 yard range is nothing more than shooting pigs in a pen; the natural defenses of the animal can not save itself in this circumstance, JMHO.

Tell me .......What are your thoughts on sticking Bambi from 8 yards with a $500 ultra-high tech compound bow,Shooting hi-tech, glowing, razor sharp, retractable bladed arrows wearing another $500 worth of charcoal filled, scent eliminating, hi tech cammo, from another $500 tree stand or blind while using the 50 different high tech scent eliminators and lures, while putting down Bambi's favorite brand of feed to lure him ever closer ect, ect, ect....................................................

I'm sure this PRICK isn't hunting either????

Or running 15 "hunters" through a 20 acre bush in a line (all fully armed with their trusty 30-30's) to another 5-10 "hunters" on the other side with their scoped semi-auto ar 10's or hk-91's waiting to slaughter Young little Bambi??? Of course they use the wind to their favor to give them a better chance!!
PRICKS ALL, I'M SURE

TOD

 

[Lynn]

Oneflyer

Oneflyer if you read PPP MMM posts you will clearly see he and the rest of the anti-huting clan threw the first punch so to speak.
Lynn

 

[WINMOD70]

Tell me .......What are your thoughts on sticking Bambi from 8 yards with a $500 ultra-high tech compound bow,Shooting hi-tech, glowing, razor sharp, retractable bladed arrows wearing another $500 worth of charcoal filled, scent eliminating, hi tech cammo, from another $500 tree stand or blind while using the 50 different high tech scent eliminators and lures, while putting down Bambi's favorite brand of feed to lure him ever closer ect, ect, ect....................................................

I'm sure this PRICK isn't hunting either????

Or running 15 "hunters" through a 20 acre bush in a line (all fully armed with their trusty 30-30's) to another 5-10 "hunters" on the other side with their scoped semi-auto ar 10's or hk-91's waiting to slaughter Young little Bambi??? Of course they use the wind to their favor to give them a better chance!!
PRICKS ALL, I'M SURE

TOD

I am sure that popping rounds at Bambi until "the blind hog finds an acorn" at any range is unethical at best and as for the stick and string crowd they need all the help they can get.

 

[PPP MMM]

Lynn, that was impressive

If I legally could own a 50BMG here where I live I would have one. Call me an imbecile or dumb prick or a dumb C*** if you want to, but even if it had a triple of the energy than my .460WM, and even if I could regularly half your 4" group with it, I still wouldn't shoot it at an animal 1K away.

Shoot well
Peter

 

[Tod Soeby]

I am sure that popping rounds at Bambi until "the blind hog finds an acorn" at any range is unethical at best and as for the stick and string crowd they need all the help they can get.

I....................GIVE.......................UP!

DUMBER THAN A BOX OF ROCKS!!!!

 

[dave10xbowles]

Todd spoke true

I had a friend who went to Colorado for Elk. 300WM handloads and 300yd zero
plus range finder and printout of drop chart. He called me from the field, fired
two(2) missed two(2) "what's wrong?" He ranged the animal at 956yds. Well
to get to the problem the chart he ran was at 750ft. above sea level. His GPS
was way above that 5500ft. Air density, elevation, humidity, all play extreme
roles in shot placement. Wind alone can drive you nuts, not left or right wind,
but, wind quartering away or toward you or in your face wind or tail wind blowing away will effect the bullet's flight. Getting back to the hunt, he didn't
have all the info he needed, not to mention a competent spotter who could
see the trace of the bullet to the intended target to give him instant feedback.
Having the best equipment don't mean doodley squat if you not a master of the
craft of Marksmanship. Sure you may be able to keep it on paper, but, what
can you do in the real world? Forget that you watched the movie "SHOOTER",
that is a movie. Sure there are cats out there that are that good. It reminds
me of "common sence" only problem with that is it just ain't that common.
Till you have payed your dues and shot and shot a ton of long range then
and maybe then it might be time to take on a living breathing target. If you
are going to bag an Elk take it clean, that is the only shot a true Sportsman
would take... a SURE SHOT. One well aimed shot down range each and every-
time. NO, I HOPE SHOT. Till then get closer.

dave10xbowles

 

[4Mesh]

I didn't post to this thread to begin with because I always try to avoid hunting threads. I have hunted once or twice before, but just don't get in these things as a rule.

I see there's been a bit of a flame war about differing opinions of sportsmanship, as is always the case on forums when dealing with hunting.

I'll just say one more time, this is the wrong forum for this topic. This is a BENCHREST forum. IE: TARGET SHOOTING CONVERSATIONS.

Ok, with that done, everyone should keep in mind that this is an INTERNET forum and therre are people here from all over the world. Laws and ideals of people from other countries differ by so much, it's almost unbelieveable to each other the other can think the way they do.

Let me give an example. I did some online gaming with a person from a European country who had been in the military in that country. When talking about hunting with him, he said it was:
UNLAWFUL TO SHOOT AT A LIVING THING AND NOT KILL IT. You could be jailed for wounding an animal. Training and certification was mandatory for a hunting permit in his country. Shot distance limits were imposed and you even had to show your ability to guess distances. To us here in the USA, that may seem a bit extreme, to them, that's the law. Opinions differ a lot as Peter mentioned above in a few of his posts, explaining some of the laws from Germany, and such.

You have to consider those things when making judgement.

 

[oneflyer]

Ted Nugent-- My hero

When questioned why Detroit had such a high murder rate compared to other similar sized cities, he calmly replied "that they were better shots in Michigan". In other countries a hunter has to qualify on the range to insure a clean kill before licenses can be issued. I would like to see that same process in the USA. I bet there would be far fewer point blank hunters compared to long range shooters. As far as this being the correct forum, many, many long range hunters that I know are benchrest shooters. In fact the oldest benchrest club in the country was formed by long range hunters arguing about the capabilities of their particular rifles.
My last post on this subject- I agree with Ted about the cranial capacities of some of the posters here.

 

[PPP MMM]

Oneflyer

When I've spent 60+ grand and bought a farm with/for a single purpose in mind. Shooting. I didn't have to drive anywhe, I just opened a door and didn't even bother to clean the table. I could shoot from the room 24/7 up to 1200metres uphill with some 185metres of elevation with most of it was from 800metres onwards. Then at first I never had a clue what a wind and mainly the irregular bursts of wind can do to a bullet at that range.
Shooting 28"/300WM/200SPBT Sierra at 2900fps. would be honest 5 shots/ 20-25mm performer at 100metres(110)yards. Shooting at calm windless conditions at the bottom(185 metres bellow) did mean absolutely nothing throught the 1200 metres long path of the bullet at the top. When I shot at the 1200metres distance for the first time aiming at a nice light coloured rock I've thought that my scope gaved up. As I didn't change the setting of the Weaver K-12F I was going to track the group bellow the point of aim. The group would have about 1metre of a horizontal spread. It took me a while to figure out what actually was happenning. 20-25mm at a centre at 100metres and the next 5 shots and 3 metres off with the direction of the wind and the group was 1/2metre high and had 1metre horizontal spread at the top of the hill. It was the irregular change of the speed of the wind during the 185/1200metres path that was causing it. The horizontal spread would be as much as 2metres at some other times. I could only feel the change of the speed of the wind picking up only when I was actually climbing up, it was really blowing up there while nearly calm at the bottom. If I had the best equipment available to me to meassure what ever I could at the bottom it would've been totally useless. What was happening at the bottom it was totally different to what was happening during the flight and at the top 185metres higher and 1200 metres away. No equipment could meassure the changes. I've never changed the scope settings as this was just a pure curiosity. When it was really windy at the bottom there were times where I would've been lucky if I hit horizontally a bus.

Shoot well
Peter

 

[Lynn]

PPP MMM and Tod Soeby

Peter I was using your words to me nothing more nothing less and yes a 50 bmg has more energy at 1,000 yards than your 460 Weatherby Magnum has at 100 yards.I am glad you don't shoot animals at 1,000 yards and there is nothing sinister in my comment.If your not comfortable doing something don't do it.I have spent many many days on my rest not being able to shoot and it is a test of both patience and endurance.Its not fun going a whole season without getting a shot off but it happens.

Tod NEVER give up!!!!!! We have lots of viewers here who never post.They come here to seek knowledge by reading what you post and they stay anonymous.After reading this thread they will come out of it saying longrange hunting isn't for everyone and its definitely controversial.It takes several people to be done right and your not rewarded with a trophy every trip out.If you pick a good location and know your equipment very well chances are you still might not get your buck.
Don't let the zealots and critics dampen your spirits.One day when somebody drives past your set-up and says what are you looking at you can say 3 or 4 bucks on that far hillside.When you let them look through our spotting scope and they see the bucks most of them are shocked.When you show them how its done they are amazed.
Lynn

 

[fleetus]

What's the point?

I have been trying to refrain from comment because it seems at this point the argument is pointless. So against better judgement, I'll take a stab at the obvious. I don't see why someone would shoot an animal at 1000 yards.

If you are a hunter, you are intersted in becoming a woodsman, learning game patterns, moving silently without beeing seen, masking scent etc.

If you are a marksman you want to prove you can put a bullet on target at long ranges. Paper proves this point just fine.

So shooting an animal at 1000 yards proves nothing. Any animal at 1000 yards could easily be stalked to within a few hundred yards. Even Dall Sheep on mtn. tops can be stalked closely.

I don't intend to offend anyone. I'm not knocking it necessarily, but I just don't understand why someone would feel the need to fire at an animal 1,000 yards away instead of paper targets or closer ranges at game.

 

[4Mesh]

Fleetus,

One of the best reasons for this sort of thing is to be able to hunt areas that otherwise could not be hunted. Ones that are so steep you can't walk it without sounding like a heard of buffalo. Ones that are spotted with dense foliage and are not accessable other than from long range, and so forth. Lots of times, you'll find very nice Trophy game in that sort of area because it's been shown for a long time to be a safe place. They are happy in that habitat.

Another reason is even if you don't use a gun, it's a great laugh to watch a mountain for a day, watch hunters go back and forth on that mountain chasing 50 deer all over creation, then talk to them later and have them tell you that there is not a single deer on that mountain! It's a roar. When you tell them you watched them all day and they had deer 50 yards from them in herds, a real interesting conversation insues! Ask anyone who's ever done any long-rang'n and they'll have that same story to tell.

 

[PPP MMM]

Fleetus

I have been trying to refrain from comment because it seems at this point the argument is pointless. So against better judgement, I'll take a stab at the obvious. I don't see why someone would shoot an animal at 1000 yards.

If you are a hunter, you are intersted in becoming a woodsman, learning game patterns, moving silently without beeing seen, masking scent etc.

If you are a marksman you want to prove you can put a bullet on target at long ranges. Paper proves this point just fine.

So shooting an animal at 1000 yards proves nothing. Any animal at 1000 yards could easily be stalked to within a few hundred yards. Even Dall Sheep on mtn. tops can be stalked closely.

I don't intend to offend anyone. I'm not knocking it necessarily, but I just don't understand why someone would feel the need to fire at an animal 1,000 yards away instead of paper targets or closer ranges at game.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

It's two of us. Well said.


Shoot well
Peter

 

[Crusader]

I'll just say one more time, this is the wrong forum for this topic. This is a BENCHREST forum. IE: TARGET SHOOTING CONVERSATIONS.

Whats the purpose of having a accurate rifle, capable of shooting 1000 yds, and in the case of this forum, 1000yrd BR if the you don't even consider the question, If I had to.... could I do it, or more precisely, could I hit it a ...... if I had to?

Guns have primarily one purpose, and that purpose is not hunting, and it isn't punching holes in paper. I'm sure this will anger some of you "purists", but really, when you come down to the heart of the matter, isnt that what its all about? If you say otherwise, your a liar!

Now as for someone shooting at a deer or a elk at 1k +/- some unknown distance, I guess its kind of a moot point, isnt it? Stop all this humane crap!

If ..it ever hits the fan, I would like to find a 1000's of people (civilians) who were on my side, who had the equipment, skill, knowledge and ability to hit a elk at long range. (and had actually done it)

I hope it never happens.
There are thousands of anti-gun people who tell you your nuts for even owning a gun, or that you have no need for one.

Least case scenario, if someone doesnt have the skill and equipment to long range hunt, they are not likely to even hit one with a wounding shot, so what are you complaining about, and in the very very least, whats the difference in humanity, from that style of hunting than those who hunt with a bow, or a pistol, or black powder, or all the advocates of using a 223 for hunting, saying, I only take head shots. Guess hunting as a sport is dead, because all youth hunters would be banned from taking up the sport because they might wound a animal and not kill it on the first shot. Maybe we can add the stipulation that before one can buy a hunting license, one has to have taken 1st or 2nd place at Supershoot, because without doing such, one may accidently wound a animal.

Now, I'm not a long range hunter, in fact, I dont think Ive gone hunting in about 6 or 7 years, and I am a firm believer in (at least for myself), you shoot it, you eat it. But, if someone has the means and skill to reasonably take a elk at 1000 yds plus/minus, more power to them, the only thing I would ask is spend a lot of time shooting at paper, know your capablities and limits, and dont excessively exceed them.
If you know what your doing, and it is your desire, have at it.

Now judging from the original posters question (forgive me if Im wrong), I dont think he is there yet, but given enough time shooting 1k BR as well as other practice and a fat wallet, in time, someday, he may well be. (and he might just become a 1k BR competitor while he's at it)

 

[Lynn]

Hey Fleetus

Fleetus do you swat at a little white ball on the grass trying to make it into a little cup 385 yards away?
Do you strap a big sheet on your back and jump out of perfectly good airplanes?
Do you sit on 5,000 hp time bombs so you can go 300 mph in the quartermile?
Do you put on a flotation device and float down a river looking for as much white water as you can find?
Now those people have serious issues and aren't sportsman at all right?
Lynn

 

[AlanF]

Lynn,

You may as well be shooting cows at those sort of ranges - the challenge of outwitting the animal's finely tuned senses is just not there. If you feel the need to shoot animals at ultra-long range, why not shoot varmints - you would get more respect.

Alan

 

[PPP MMM]

Crusader

You'r a true Imbecile.

Shoot well
Petr

 

[Lynn]

Alan F

Alan my uncle has two ranches in Northern,California full of Squirrels.The area he is in holds an annual "Squirrel Wars" were teams compete for various prizes.
My father and I usually show up after its over and shoot the coyotes,foxes and various other animals feeding on the squirrel carcasses.
Lynn

 

[4Mesh]

Whats the purpose of having a accurate rifle, capable of shooting 1000 yds, and in the case of this forum, 1000yrd BR if the you don't even consider the question, If I had to.... could I do it, or more precisely, could I hit it a ...... if I had to?

Well, that's not really the question is it. Back some time ago, the rules of this forum, and I think you can find them somewhere, say that this is not a hunting forum. Thus, this topic is not appropriate here. I think you can see why, by looking at the posts. As to the question, I can easily answer that if I am honest with myself about my shot distribution on 1K targets over the past several years. As long as I shoot unlimited siters, the animal should be an easy shot. Especially if I choose my time correctly. Without the siters, you are kidding yourself.

Guns have primarily one purpose, and that purpose is not hunting, and it isn't punching holes in paper. I'm sure this will anger some of you "purists", but really, when you come down to the heart of the matter, isnt that what its all about? If you say otherwise, your a liar!

Hmmm..... And, I'm not a purist really. Just trying to point out the forum rules.

Least case scenario, if someone doesnt have the skill and equipment to long range hunt, they are not likely to even hit one with a wounding shot, so what are you complaining about, and in the very very least, whats the difference in humanity, from that style of hunting than those who hunt with a bow, or a pistol, or black powder, or all the advocates of using a 223 for hunting, saying, I only take head shots. Guess hunting as a sport is dead, because all youth hunters would be banned from taking up the sport because they might wound a animal and not kill it on the first shot. Maybe we can add the stipulation that before one can buy a hunting license, one has to have taken 1st or 2nd place at Supershoot, because without doing such, one may accidently wound a animal.

I disagree with the first statement here. As for taking 1st or second in a supershoot, I guess I qualify cause I've done both, so I'm ok! I get a license!

Now, I'm not a long range hunter, in fact, I dont think Ive gone hunting in about 6 or 7 years, and I am a firm believer in (at least for myself), you shoot it, you eat it. But, if someone has the means and skill to reasonably take a elk at 1000 yds plus/minus, more power to them, the only thing I would ask is spend a lot of time shooting at paper, know your capablities and limits, and dont excessively exceed them.
If you know what your doing, and it is your desire, have at it.

Agreed there. And I have not hunted in some years either.

Now judging from the original posters question (forgive me if Im wrong), I dont think he is there yet, but given enough time shooting 1k BR as well as other practice and a fat wallet, in time, someday, he may well be. (and he might just become a 1k BR competitor while he's at it)

He may. I only say this is the wrong forum for the question. The topic does say 1000 yard benchrest... If you take notice to the domain name, it is BENCHREST central, not HUNTING central. I don't make the rules, I don't pay for the site. I am just pointing out the obvious. I also have never seen a constructive hunting related topic on this site, period. In the old days, this thread would have been deleted. It's too bad these are not the good old days. The thread is very thin on useful content. There are several good sites, devoted to hunting at extreme ranges where this topic would be better suited, and would actually get answers, rather than flames from folks who don't understand the sport.

 

[BountyHunter]

OK guess I way in now as this did not die the death I hoped it would.

Lynn is correct, I directed the shooter to another site where his question would not stir up this firestorm and be a more appropriate forum.

LR hunting is an individual "ethical" issue and no one can dictate what is the correct ethical answer as a universal all encompassing statement. I teach hunter ed, normally the ethics class and live in "dog" country. Want to stir up a fist fight, talk dog hunting for deer with a guy who lives in the West vs the South Eastern guys and now throw the "newly arrived rural city slicker" who goes "Oh my god, they are shooting Bambi."

We have all seen hunters where their limit should be 10 yards, tied to a stakes by all four legs with a 10 ft wide metal funnel directing the shots.

I have seen a Missouri mule checked in as a doe, a billy goat as a spike and a turkey buzzard as a turkey. Yet all shot close range, so so much for SR being the ethical standard. By the way what are the exact SR ethical limits?

I will say the guys at the check station were admirable. In all cases they did not laugh (until they left) and were very helpful in directing them where to go to have them processed for the freezer.

I also hunt/hunted with bow (longbow, recurve, compound and selfbow). Now most uninformed archery neophytes would say that is "unethical" to use a self bow, homemade wood arrows and obsidian arrowheads. Yes for them I am sure it is. However for an archer who practices with those arrows, limits his shots to carefully selected (that means a lot of deer passed up for angle and over 20 yards) and knows that a proper obisidian head is sharper than a razor, it is not unethical. Change those parameters and now it probably is unethical. Hmmm, maybe those same type standards should apply to all hunters LR and SR.

Bottom line, We all need to understand that circumstances, skills, experience and other factors play into what is ethical and what is not for each individual. What is ethical in one region might not be in another, what is ethical in one country is not in another, what is ethical for one person might not be for another. Those things do not make one hunter or group of hunters wrong or right or ethical or unethical.

Bottom line, ethical biases, and discussions are driven by regional influences, personal beliefs, skills and desires and you can never win the arguement for either side. You can only hopefully understand the differences and issues and agree to disagree that your bias and beliefs are not the deciding factor for every hunter.

BH