Tuners Suck

[J Pappas]

Martin

after testing and studying all that was posted on this forum for the past 2 years,I figured anywhere from 60-70% of all benchrest rifles were not tuned properly. I now think that figure is low.

You ought to go to Piney Hill this weekend to the Unlimited Indoor Nationals, and teach them guys how to tune their rifles. You might learn a thing or two, also.

 

[martin hammond]

James, from all the posts these past 2 years it seems 3 from pennsylvania, 1 from west virginia and 1 from north carolina are the only shooters to post a how to, so I figure that's about all that have a clue. and I do beleive 2500's and 250's can be shot with an untuned rifle. and untuned rifles are the main reason 250 25x's aren't being shot regularlly with these custom rifles.

 

[Benchrester]

Bob Kingsbury,

It would be almost impossible to test a tuner on a freestyle rifle without putting it on a bench. What I am saying, I have tried. Tuners do reduce vertical. Movement of the tuner does little. Now, of course if you move it from the muzzle back to the receiver it will not help the vertical, at least not much. So the tuner does need t be around the muzzle and preferabley a little past it. Try it on novice (and I mean novice to a tuner) shooters. I'm telling you you can move the tuner all over the place and they have not preconceived ideas and it does little .

James Pappas

A Harrel tuner. Generally I use RBA or IR 50/50 targets and I seldom count X's, so 250's are not difficult with or without the tuner. Scanning the target does not indicate a lot of shots towards the center if the tuner is on. So, I see little difference. However, I have tried your slide, which I consider only nominally a tuner, and yes it does make a difference. It will make a difference even when used by people who have never seen one. The sliding weight does little unless used to regulate the expansion chamber as expected. Your idea has been done more than once although yours is the biggest diameter I have seen. Now peple will accuse me of working for you but I will make this statement. "If I was going to use a tuner, I would not use one without a slide". That's my opinion nothing more. Basically get a slide from you and cut to length. I have one of yours that is about four inches long. It makes a visible difference.

 

[Keith23]

Marty Marty Marty

James, from all the posts these past 2 years it seems 3 from pennsylvania, 1 from west virginia and 1 from north carolina are the only shooters to post a how to, so I figure that's about all that have a clue. and I do beleive 2500's and 250's can be shot with an untuned rifle. and untuned rifles are the main reason 250 25x's aren't being shot regularlly with these custom rifles.

Marty, you may be right about the 250's, I think you shot a couple, but I don't know about the 2500's. Have you been shooting ARA as well?

I'm just kidding, I'm just kidding , I'm just kidding.

But really why don't you come to Piney Hill this weekend and shoot indoors.

With a tuned rifle it should be a piece of cake to shoot them 250 25X's with no pesky wind to bother you.

You will meet some great guys, and I'm sure you will enjoy yourself.

 

[martin hammond]

Keith and James, I know I do not have the skill's of experienced shooters as you guys. but I do understand tuning and know a rifle can shoot lights out untuned. look at the shooter who placed a mid barrel tuner on his rifle. the rifle came alive and he won a major championship. he did that with an untuned rifle. I have yet to hear any of you that have criticize others offer your tuning tips. I'll put my thoughts out here and take the hits lets here you guys tell all of us how you do it. please share your ideas with us on tuning.

 

[Keith23]

Marty

Keith and James, I know I do not have the skill's of experienced shooters as you guys. but I do understand tuning and know a rifle can shoot lights out untuned. look at the shooter who placed a mid barrel tuner on his rifle. the rifle came alive and he won a major championship. he did that with an untuned rifle. I have yet to hear any of you that have criticize others offer your tuning tips. I'll put my thoughts out here and take the hits lets here you guys tell all of us how you do it. please share your ideas with us on tuning.

I have put about all I know about tuning on these boards and many have told me I'm wrong, and who knows, I may be.

James manufactures tuners he has explained his thoughts to more people than I can count.

Truth is it really doesn't matter who is right or who is wrong. This game rewards those that perform and you have to be at the match to perform!

Come on out and shoot. Luray isn't that far, besides where else can you shoot 50 yards indoors?

 

[Madrox]

Keith and James, I know I do not have the skill's of experienced shooters as you guys. but I do understand tuning and know a rifle can shoot lights out untuned. look at the shooter who placed a mid barrel tuner on his rifle. the rifle came alive and he won a major championship. he did that with an untuned rifle. I have yet to hear any of you that have criticize others offer your tuning tips. I'll put my thoughts out here and take the hits lets here you guys tell all of us how you do it. please share your ideas with us on tuning.

I've never seen you put your ideas out there unless the idea is simply "I'm right and you're wrong". You've never really said what you do and how you know you're correct when you do whatever it is you don't want to tell us.

 

[J Pappas]

Martin

Keith and James, I know I do not have the skill's of experienced shooters as you guys. but I do understand tuning and know a rifle can shoot lights out untuned. look at the shooter who placed a mid barrel tuner on his rifle. the rifle came alive and he won a major championship. he did that with an untuned rifle. I have yet to hear any of you that have criticize others offer your tuning tips. I'll put my thoughts out here and take the hits lets here you guys tell all of us how you do it. please share your ideas with us on tuning.

You are of course talking about Brian Brant, the winner of the ARA Nationals and the last PSL match. In the last 2 years the rifle you say is untuned has shot more 2400+ targets and won more matches than 99.9% of the people who shoot ARA. Are you sure that rifle is untuned? What do you base that observation on, your graphs and targets you post? I have NEVER, EVER seen a untuned rifle shoots "light out". I think you would be the only person on BRC to make a statement like that.

 

[martin hammond]

James, I base that on just the statement that he added a mid barrel tuner and the rifle came to life. that tells me his rifle was tuned well before it reached it peak of travel and had not settled down. when a rifle is nearing it's peak it's jerking motions slow.it's obvious that by addition of a mid barrel tuner his rifle is not even close to the upswing. that's what those graphs were showing if you turned them upside down. those peaks were the rifle jerking motion on it's upward travel. it appears about 1/2oz to 1.0oz weight added before the barrel starts downward is when it settles down. and how you know the barrel is headed downwards is. the groups open up, they fall below the x ring and you think someone put federal 510's in your eley match box.

 

[J Pappas]

Martin

James, I base that on just the statement that he added a mid barrel tuner and the rifle came to life. that tells me his rifle was tuned well before it reached it peak of travel and had not settled down. when a rifle is nearing it's peak it's jerking motions slow.it's obvious that by addition of a mid barrel tuner his rifle is not even close to the upswing. that's what those graphs were showing if you turned them upside down. those peaks were the rifle jerking motion on it's upward travel. it appears about 1/2oz to 1.0oz weight added before the barrel starts downward is when it settles down. and how you know the barrel is headed downwards is. the groups open up, they fall below the x ring and you think someone put federal 510's in your eley match box.

The only thing that is obvious is you don't have a shooting record to back up your statements. Your lack of shooting skill is compound by the fact that your tuning skill is nil and you don't know the difference. Good luck Martin, if you don't shoot in matches you are missing a chance to learn and have a good time. Its your loss.

 

[martin hammond]

James, look at the post about extreme velocity. look at the last post about droping the widest variant. that would have been a dropper in a tuned but not fully tuned rifle. I may not have the tourniment experience that you madrox and Tony have. but I'll bet I've done more testing with lots of ammo and had as much range time as any. probably had as much range time experimenting as multiple shooters. and your right if I had an experienced shooters record there would be no argument about tuning. but James it only takes one dropper to kill a good target.

 

[J Pappas]

Martin

If I say anymore I will be on a sabattical with Beau.

 

[martin hammond]

James, I have answered over 70 emails, talked on the phone for hours. answered and sent dozens of pms, many emails from different countries and from some top shooters. not once was it personall. it was discusions on tuning and timing, what I've tried and what others have tried. why should what's posted here be any different.

 

[Beau]

But what was the nature of the phone calls. You're like a snake oil salesman. You've got the solution, and you've figured it out, but you're not gonna say what it is. That's because you don't really know. You're a kook.

 

[J Pappas]

Martin

James, I have answered over 70 emails, talked on the phone for hours. answered and sent dozens of pms, many emails from different countries and from some top shooters. not once was it personall. it was discusions on tuning and timing, what I've tried and what others have tried. why should what's posted here be any different.

Martin, we will always disagree, I don't believe untuned rimfire rifles can beat the best rimfire shooters in the country at the ARA Nationals. I don't believe that DJ, Craig Young and David K. could win the World Championship with untuned rifles. I don't believe that Craig Young and David K. can shoot 5 matches in the PSL and come in 1st and 2nd with untuned rifles. I don't believe that Don M. and Marion Collier and Fred Leeds are fighting it out to win the A-Line with untuned rifles. I could go on but most people get my point. Apparently you do believe that none of these people are shooting tuned rifles. I get tired of saying it.

 

[gambler]

conspiracy theory

i got a theory.....brian Brandt did not shoot the winning score...the shots came from the roof of the St. Louis club house buy a second shooter using a tuned rifle ,and every body knows the Texas shoot came from the grassy knoll

 

[Kent Owens]

James,
Craig sure might be out of tune, but his rifle sure ain't He's a good boy though, even outta tune.

 

[J Pappas]

Kent

James,
Craig sure might be out of tune, but his rifle sure ain't He's a good boy though, even outta tune.

Craig marches to the tune of a different drummer but he may own the best shooting 22 rimfire out there.

 

[martin hammond]

Beau and james, tuning with 3 speeds as I have been doing the only advice I have received is maybe 2 extreme velocitys would do the same and a chronograph would be helpful. other than that not 1 from a educational backround has said wait a minute. only those involved emotionally. if setting a tuner untill the rounds drop and open into flyers and backing form there and selelecting the least vertical is wrong please tell me. you can't. all you can do is name calling. because something has been wrong and shooters have found a way to make it work for 20 years doesn't make it sound judgement and a reason for it to continue to do it that way for 20 more years. when I went to the firing line this year, looked at every rifle saw bloop tubes, barrel dampners and tire weights as tuning weights it was pretty obvious what rifles are tuned. James you may sell a product and Calfee may sell a product but the only product out there capable of tuning a rifle without modifications is the Von-Ahrens tuner and weight set. you guys might not like that answer but that's the way it is. if not prove me wrong with logic not emotions. all your supposed knowledge on tuning I've been waiting for someone to discuss extending the collar on the tuners but not one of you experts has asked what that would do. because you flat out don't understand what a fired barrel really does. someone made you guys a rifle and said go shoot it. and that's about the extent of it.

 

[J Pappas]

Beau and james, tuning with 3 speeds as I have been doing the only advice I have received is maybe 2 extreme velocitys would do the same and a chronograph would be helpful. other than that not 1 from a educational backround has said wait a minute. only those involved emotionally. if setting a tuner untill the rounds drop and open into flyers and backing form there and selelecting the least vertical is wrong please tell me. you can't. all you can do is name calling. because something has been wrong and shooters have found a way to make it work for 20 years doesn't make it sound judgement and a reason for it to continue to do it that way for 20 more years. when I went to the firing line this year, looked at every rifle saw bloop tubes, barrel dampners and tire weights as tuning weights it was pretty obvious what rifles are tuned. James you may sell a product and Calfee may sell a product but the only product out there capable of tuning a rifle without modifications is the Von-Ahrens tuner and weight set. you guys might not like that answer but that's the way it is. if not prove me wrong with logic not emotions. all your supposed knowledge on tuning I've been waiting for someone to discuss extending the collar on the tuners but not one of you experts has asked what that would do. because you flat out don't understand what a fired barrel really does. someone made you guys a rifle and said go shoot it. and that's about the extent of it.

Well Martin you won't like this but most of the 2500 targets shot this year in ARA were using a parallel noodle. You do realize that the von Ahrens tuner is an adaptation of Bill Calfee's idea, right?