Okay, TUNERS AGAIN. Bukys/Schmidt style versus Beggs???????????????

Mr. Brown,

If the number .0012 is constant, I assume this means the Begg's tuner's movement is linear? Other Begg tuner users have told me this. Meaning, if you shoot at 60 degrees then the temp jumps up to 80 degrees - you would know where to put the tuner without having to fire groups to test. Just wondering (after re-reading your post) why it doesn't work for a "new" day?

Reason for asking - I follow much the same procedure - except I don't shoot hundereds of groups. I'll shoot as many groups,without moving my tuner, as it takes to get my baseline tune (adjusting powder and seating depth) Then on a different DA day, I will go shoot, and only moving the tuner, until I get the "same" sized group. I now have my 2 data points and can put that into a spreadsheet to tell me where the tuner needs to be based on any DA. (Temp is the biggest part of the DA formula). It seems to work all the time after that. Just looking for some confirmation that what I am doing is on the right track. I haven't been at this long enough to know when my tune is as good as it can be.

Stanley
 
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CubCouper said:
I have shot 1000+ registered match targets, burned up 5 barrels, and even taken a few trophies in my work with my Beggs tuner. I devised a way to track and analyze the loads, groups, and tuner performance and I can say definitively that *with a good barrel* I can make predictable, repeatable adjustments to my group sizes at the bench based on largely on temperature and to a lesser degree on humidity. I can also say that I don't hold much stock in most of the tuner discussions I listen in on. Practically every person I know using a tuner is much too coarse in their adjustments, and generally stuck on their notion of how barrels vibrate. This leads to a lot of discussions about weight, in front vs behind the muzzle, and keeping vertical in your groups (sorry Jackie-- but I'll take a flat group every day), but generally doesn't lead to objective results. I shot exactly the same load through most of those targets (for 3 years I never touched my powder measure) and using some basic spreadsheet analysis, came up with a couple simple formulas for adjusting a Beggs tuner that work very reliably between 30 and 95 degrees, and from Raton to St Louis to Phoenix.

Here is my "secret": On the first target of the day keep tweaking the tuner until group is as flat as I can make it - then shoot my record group. On all subsequent targets, do the same.

Keep track of the tuner position (in 1/1000ths of an inch), group size and shape, temperature, and humidity, and (after several hundred groups) you will see a pattern appear. The spreadsheet revealed for my (light by most standards) loads in my LV, it works out to .0012 per degree of temp change. Temp goes up a degree, I move my tuner out by 1.2 marks based on the decal I put on my tuner. This held true across four different barrels -- all of which shot teen aggs at various times. The number is different for my Unlimited gun, but even more stable in its performance. I have an adjustment for humidity changes, but generally don't need it much. I know a few others who correlate both numbers together in a density altitude formula. That works too, but I'm too cheap to spring for a fancy meter when I can do my math on my fingers. (For those with 28tpi Beggs tuners, this is 2 "clock numbers" per 5 degrees temperature).

This formula does not tell you where to start the day -- only how much to "expect" to move the tuner from the "last known good" position. The key is using the tuner to stay exactly on the sweet spot inside a tune node (i.e. the flat group).

There is a lot of good vibration analysis out there, but for me the numbers simply don't work when you extrapolate them to the sensitivity of the tiny tuner adjustments that I know do work. There is a white paper by a long range, live varmint shooter that does correlate to my findings. While he doesn't use tuners, his shock wave pulse models match my tuner analysis for both my LV and UNL guns. Check out Chris Long's paper on Optimal Barrel Time at http://www.the-long-family.com/OBT_paper.htm. (BTW Chris has some credentials like NASA Fellow Engineer, or something similar-- very bright guy). My synopsis is that tweaking the tuner effectively changes the "length" of the barrel and re-times the position of the shock wave pulse vs. the bullet exit. Small, large, beyond the muzzle or not, wouldn't matter if this is actually the case.

Rod Brown
Click to expand...


HOly kuh'RAPP!

Thank You Rod...

Merry New Year to us

al
 
What I could see - - -

what Mr Brown has lain out. I never did take the time to do the shooting necessary to make a spreadsheet. I realized unless one does that, the tuner becomes a hit ir miss situation. If one can find groups in the 1's with out the tuner and the rifle will stay there most days I figured the tuner was a waste uness I put the time in. People still win without them. the price for 30 Cal bullets took the fun out of testing a whole lot, for me anyway.
 
One obvious advantage to someone marketing a "standardized" design that has been pre-tested as to its effectiveness is that when shooters compare notes and share information and there is a greater chance that comparisons will be "apples to apples". Being near the cutting edge can be a lot less frustrating and expensive than actually being on it. It depends on what you enjoy.
 
CubCouper said:
This formula does not tell you where to start the day -- only how much to "expect" to move the tuner from the "last known good" position.
Rod Brown
Click to expand...

Rod,
Many thanks for sharing your findings. I am curious about the repeatability of the settings. Let's say you finish a match with the tuner optimally adjusted for temperature XX and humidity YY. The next month at the same range with the same temperature and humidity, the same tuner setting doesn't work? How far do you typically have to move it to find the tune again?

Thanks,
Keith
 
mks said:
Rod,
Many thanks for sharing your findings. I am curious about the repeatability of the settings. Let's say you finish a match with the tuner optimally adjusted for temperature XX and humidity YY. The next month at the same range with the same temperature and humidity, the same tuner setting doesn't work? How far do you typically have to move it to find the tune again?

Thanks,
Keith
Click to expand...

Keith, Rod may agree or disagree with me on this, but for me it was pretty easy to see how much to move the tuner based on group size and shape. If it shoots big, I turn big..like a couple of numbers on Lambert tuner. That's not much movement of the tuner but it's enough to see a big difference in how it shoots. If it shoots small, I turn small. I can see differences in half numbers on mine. It really comes pretty fast. I feel like, with a good gun, a person can have a reasonably good grasp on what the tuner will do to groups and his gun in less than 100 rounds fired,. and probably more like 50-60, but there is a learning curve. I do still go the wrong way at times when basing adjustment on group size and shape, but you know what you did wrong instanly and just go the other way with the tuner.--Mike
 
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For all of the folks reading this who are not competitive BR Shooters I feel some clarification is in order.

The above posts, especially this last one by Mike Ezell make this sound easy. I can see folks lining up to buy "tuners" for their varmint rifles.

IT'S NOT

When Mike says "I can see a difference in half numbers" and "It comes on pretty fast" this is like a Formula One driver coming into the pit and telling his mechanic "she's a little loose in corner 6 over there, I think we should crank 'er up just a little on the inside and maybe increase downforce..." And when Mike sez ""reasonably good grasp.....less than 100rds" he's talking to BR Shooters.

This tuner stuff applies to BENCH REST RIFLES. Tuners aren't going to change the world of F-Class shooting... A tuner absolutely will not make your factory or hybrid rifle shoot dots, in fact in my opinion the effects of a tuner are hard to even see when used on a less than accurate rifle. They're also hard to see if you don't KNOW how to shoot, like KNOW where the bullet should have went.

I know, this IS the Benchrest Forum, but that doesn't keep people from making assumptions.

If this caution is inappropriate you guys let me know and I'll delete it.

I felt it hadda' be said :)


al
 
And then there was the Browning "Boss" system. Suppressor/tuner. My friend had a .223 Browning A-Bolt rifle that he could tune to shoot off the shelf ammo surprisingly well, using the factory recommended settings. Go figure.


Glenn
 
alinwa said:
For all of the folks reading this who are not competitive BR Shooters I feel some clarification is in order.

The above posts, especially this last one by Mike Ezell make this sound easy. I can see folks lining up to buy "tuners" for their varmint rifles.

IT'S NOT

When Mike says "I can see a difference in half numbers" and "It comes on pretty fast" this is like a Formula One driver coming into the pit and telling his mechanic "she's a little loose in corner 6 over there, I think we should crank 'er up just a little on the inside and maybe increase downforce..." And when Mike sez ""reasonably good grasp.....less than 100rds" he's talking to BR Shooters.

This tuner stuff applies to BENCH REST RIFLES. Tuners aren't going to change the world of F-Class shooting... A tuner absolutely will not make your factory or hybrid rifle shoot dots, in fact in my opinion the effects of a tuner are hard to even see when used on a less than accurate rifle. They're also hard to see if you don't KNOW how to shoot, like KNOW where the bullet should have went.

I know, this IS the Benchrest Forum, but that doesn't keep people from making assumptions.

If this caution is inappropriate you guys let me know and I'll delete it.

I felt it hadda' be said :)


al
Click to expand...
Thanks Al! My post probably did need that bit of clarification. I was directing it to Keith, who is a good shooter and felt he would know exactly what I was describing. It does take a good gun to see what I was talking about. IMO tuners won't make a bad gun and/or load good...but they are a tool that lets us keep a good setup working at or near it's potential. I do believe that many people are intimidated by tuners for several reasons though. I find them much easier to use than to understand, frankly. People see a tuner and all those threads on them, and many get lost in the idea of turning and turning, and where do I start. I say, don't worry about it. Just start shooting 3 shot groups, turning the tuner 1 number at a time, establishing biggest and smallest group sizes. It'll go all the way in and all the way out of tune in a small range of adjustment. That range is debatable but with most tuners/guns that I've seen, it'll happen in something less than 1/4 turn. Once you establish a good tune, it's just a matter of fine tuning it if/when it goes out. Within a short time you should be able to judge by group size and shape, how far to turn the tuner to get it back to shooting small. If it's way out, you may still need to fine tune once you get it back to respectable. My experience is that when a gun is as far out of tune as the tuner will take it, the groups just get big and round. When it's close, I can simply tune out the vertical. That range has been between big .3's and .4's at worst and in good conditions, to 0's and teens. Most of my experience is with Butch Lambert's tuners on HV 30's.--Mike
 
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Borden Rifles Tuner

I have three of these and I've been very pleased with them. They are made by Borden Rifles in Pennsylvania.

Borden_Tuner.jpg
 
mwezell said:
Thanks Al! My post probably did need that bit of clarification. I was directing it to Keith, who is a good shooter and felt he would know exactly what I was describing. It does take a good gun to see what I was talking about. IMO tuners won't make a bad gun and/or load good...but they are a tool that lets us keep a good setup working at or near it's potential. I do believe that many people are intimidated by tuners for several reasons though. I find them much easier to use than to understand, frankly. People see a tuner and all those threads on them, and many get lost in the idea of turning and turning, and where do I start. I say, don't worry about it. Just start shooting 3 shot groups, turning the tuner 1 number at a time, establishing biggest and smallest group sizes. It'll go all the way in and all the way out of tune in a small range of adjustment. That range is debatable but with most tuners/guns that I've seen, it'll happen in something less than 1/4 turn. Once you establish a good tune, it's just a matter of fine tuning it if/when it goes out. Within a short time you should be able to judge by group size and shape, how far to turn the tuner to get it back to shooting small. If it's way out, you may still need to fine tune once you get it back to respectable. My experience is that when a gun is as far out of tune as the tuner will take it, the groups just get big and round. When it's close, I can simply tune out the vertical. That range has been between big .3's and .4's at worst and in good conditions, to 0's and teens. Most of my experience is with Butch Lambert's tuners on HV 30's.--Mike
Click to expand...

Mike,
Thanks. I don't know if I qualify as a good shooter, but I understand what you are saying. That it's easy enough to judge tune on target without worrying about temperature, etc. Still, I am curious how well moving the tuner to a position based on temperature would work for the first target of the day, or at least to reduce the number of sighters required to establish tune at the beginning of the day. Hopefully Rod will respond.

Thanks,
Keith
 
Everyone is subject to there opinions of how they choose to use there Beggs tuner. Gene Beggs the founder of the Beggs tuner, has instructions on the basics of using his tuner. After that it is up to the individual. Some just go with what he has instructed and then there are those that experiment and expand on them. From the LITTLE correspondence I have had with Rodney he expanded and experimented and came up with a process that works for HIM on a consistent basis.

I am pretty sure if and when he has a chance to reply there will be some good info.

Calvin
 
Mine weighs 1793gr and some change and has 4 of the plastic thingies, other than that it looks very similar to Adrian's.

al
 
100_0291.jpg

Alinwa
In my humble opinion a tuner is useless on a varmint rifle only because of the great variations in distances from target to target.If your hunting is limited to a range of targets varying by only 200-300 yards it wouldn't matter and a tuner would be a major improvement.
Here is a picture of one of my latest models designed by Vibe.I call it Vibes antenna tuner.
Lynn
 
Lynn said:
View attachment 12166

Alinwa
In my humble opinion a tuner is useless on a varmint rifle only because of the great variations in distances from target to target.If your hunting is limited to a range of targets varying by only 200-300 yards it wouldn't matter and a tuner would be a major improvement.
Here is a picture of one of my latest models designed by Vibe.I call it Vibes antenna tuner.
Lynn
Click to expand...


I can't see that vibe thing working, too much standoff.

al
 
heres my latest prototype

IMG_20120108_215843.jpg

The aluminun body is 1.5 in. The total weight is 3.5 with this small tunner bushing
 
alinwa said:
For all of the folks reading this who are not competitive BR Shooters I feel some clarification is in order.

The above posts, especially this last one by Mike Ezell make this sound easy. I can see folks lining up to buy "tuners" for their varmint rifles.

IT'S NOT

When Mike says "I can see a difference in half numbers" and "It comes on pretty fast" this is like a Formula One driver coming into the pit and telling his mechanic "she's a little loose in corner 6 over there, I think we should crank 'er up just a little on the inside and maybe increase downforce..." And when Mike sez ""reasonably good grasp.....less than 100rds" he's talking to BR Shooters.

This tuner stuff applies to BENCH REST RIFLES. Tuners aren't going to change the world of F-Class shooting... A tuner absolutely will not make your factory or hybrid rifle shoot dots, in fact in my opinion the effects of a tuner are hard to even see when used on a less than accurate rifle. They're also hard to see if you don't KNOW how to shoot, like KNOW where the bullet should have went.

I know, this IS the Benchrest Forum, but that doesn't keep people from making assumptions.

If this caution is inappropriate you guys let me know and I'll delete it.

I felt it hadda' be said :)


al
Click to expand...

All good Alinwa.
 
Lynn,

Are those wobbly whiskers with the magnum warts on the ends intended to keep the muzzle moving in the vertical plane only? Good idea. Does it work?

Greg
 
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