Okay, TUNERS AGAIN. Bukys/Schmidt style versus Beggs???????????????

Jerry, the only thing I disagree with you on is the weight. 4 to 5 ounces is plenty. ........jackie
May be. Not all barrels take the same amount to tune but if one is building a tuner might as well make it heavy enough to work on most any barrel.
Minimum weight for the tuner also has much to do with barrel configuration. A long skinny profile like a Palma taper at 23.5" weighing 4# 10 ounces would not take as much weight as a Max HV taper at 19.5" weighing the same amount.

I have taken a 2 oz tuner and it will effect tune but does not weigh enough to keep the barrel in tune. For example, in 2005 when the IBS had temporarily approved tuners but they could not exceed the profile of a HV barrel, I shot the IBS Nationals with a 2.5 oz tuner that was 4.5" long. It would tune but the barrel would not stay in tune, plus that long skinny profile would change POI sometimes as much as 1" at 100 yards.


image upload
 
Vern in your reply post 9 you are referring to Gene Beggs??? As I understand he does as you described in your post.

In James post, post #8 he is referring to what Gene Bukys does? If that is the case James thank you very mush for your inside insight. That helps a bit.

Calvin
 
Paul, in your post 10 you are thinking what I was thinking in regards to tuner info. Jackie cleared that up slightly with his reply a few posts later.

Yes I do have the info you eluded to in regards as to where to get one. The info has been discussed and passed down. Thanks for what you have shared with him.

You see my Benchrest Shooting friends, our camp here in Canada is next to nothing in size. Maybe 15-20 who are interested travelling into your fine country to compete and learn more about the game. There has been one person that we know of up here who has tried a Beggs tuner and is still playing a bit with it. For the rest of us who are interested in trying one, it is a whole new world. Yes there may be or may have been tons of info discussed here but it will be a whole NEW learning experience for us. One that I know I am not scared to try. The biggest challenge is to convince our gunsmith's to thread the muzzles for these tuners.

As Paul stated earlier I sometimes wonder if there is SOME SORT OF MAGIC to the SNUBBER tuner?

Just my thoughts.

Calvin
 
P. Ericson, THANK YOU. That is exactly what I needed to know. Now to find where to get the bearing that is described in that document and find someone willing to make me 1 or 2 up.

Why did I not become a machinist so I could do this stuff myself?????????

Everyone who has contributed to this discussion THANK YOU. I was a little worried but I figured this was the way to get the info I was needing.

Calvin
 
calvin I have one I have never used, will take a pic and sent it to you

Jeff

(I might have 2 designs like always if 1 is good 2 is better )
 
Calvin yes its Gene Beggs. Thats the way he described it to me at the blue bonnet one year.
I dont remember the exact specs but as he said it once installed and tuned if a gun went out of tune you only had to turn the tuner within a certain distance and it would be in tune again without changing the load or seating depth.
 
My experience with tuners is limited, but i can say with relative certain that on my HV 23" 30BR barrel that my 4oz beggs tuner is not heavy enough to make much if any difference. When i can, i am going to make a 6oz tuner and try again. Lee
 
My experience with tuners is limited, but i can say with relative certain that on my HV 23" 30BR barrel that my 4oz beggs tuner is not heavy enough to make much if any difference. When i can, i am going to make a 6oz tuner and try again. Lee

Skeet, what you may want to consider is to leave the Beggs on if it is installed and just make another threaded ring that is twice as thick as the total thickness of the Beggs. Use the three together, then just use the two Beggs and see how that barrel reacts.

There are so many variables between barrels, length, heat treatment, diameter, etc., its just not an apples to apples comparison. As to heat treatment, just for example, I'll guarantee none of the barrel makers heat treat process is exactly alike, nor will even within a single heat treatment process an exact same result exist between different lots of barrel steel.
 
Another factor beyond weight might be the placement of the weight. The weight might be more effective closer to or even beyond the muzzle than behind it. Torque = Force x Lever Arm.
 
So Jerry I take it what Lee mentions about possibly 4 oz not being enough for a heavy, is why your opinion is to make it heavy to begin with, thus eliminating that possible problem.

Todd T, I take it you run a tuner? Thanks for your insight as well.

Calvin
 
Another factor beyond weight might be the placement of the weight. The weight might be more effective closer to or even beyond the muzzle than behind it. Torque = Force x Lever Arm.
Greg, some of the shooters still using tuners feel that ALL the tuner weight must be beyond the bullet exit point but I agree with you it has more to do with the effect of leverage than weight location per se.

Calvin, I'll bet you $10,000 of Mitt Romney's money that 4 oz will be practically unnoticeable on a Max HV barrel of our normal benchrest lengths of 20"-23".
 
I view the barrel as a full moment cantilever. From a practical perspective, I think about Mode 1 and 2 combined. Any more and my head really starts to hurt.

So, I just think about the weight and the distance from the moment as being "tuner authority".

Best,

Greg J.
 
From my experience with using both the behind the muzzle and overhanging the muzzle on 30 Cal barrels, the 4oz behind the muzzle tuner is easier to use and not nearly as touchy as those I have that overhang the muzzle.

After using tuners for a few years I have decided to abandon them. I pre-load and am convinced that in the temp regimes I
shoot in, once I find a good load for my barrels, They will stay in tune without tuners. In spite of all my enthusasm in the beginning, I have had enough of them.
 
Pete
Before you give up set one up like Bill Calfee says and see what happens.He has been using them on hundreds of rifles for the past 30 years and there is a very good reason why he wants the weight out in front.He has tried both methods.
Lynn
 
I read Gene's post before he deleted it.... Man I wish I had copied that to my notes....

maybe i did?

Paul
 
I have shot 1000+ registered match targets, burned up 5 barrels, and even taken a few trophies in my work with my Beggs tuner. I devised a way to track and analyze the loads, groups, and tuner performance and I can say definitively that *with a good barrel* I can make predictable, repeatable adjustments to my group sizes at the bench based on largely on temperature and to a lesser degree on humidity. I can also say that I don't hold much stock in most of the tuner discussions I listen in on. Practically every person I know using a tuner is much too coarse in their adjustments, and generally stuck on their notion of how barrels vibrate. This leads to a lot of discussions about weight, in front vs behind the muzzle, and keeping vertical in your groups (sorry Jackie-- but I'll take a flat group every day), but generally doesn't lead to objective results. I shot exactly the same load through most of those targets (for 3 years I never touched my powder measure) and using some basic spreadsheet analysis, came up with a couple simple formulas for adjusting a Beggs tuner that work very reliably between 30 and 95 degrees, and from Raton to St Louis to Phoenix.

Here is my "secret": On the first target of the day keep tweaking the tuner until group is as flat as I can make it - then shoot my record group. On all subsequent targets, do the same.

Keep track of the tuner position (in 1/1000ths of an inch), group size and shape, temperature, and humidity, and (after several hundred groups) you will see a pattern appear. The spreadsheet revealed for my (light by most standards) loads in my LV, it works out to .0012 per degree of temp change. Temp goes up a degree, I move my tuner IN (not out ) by 1.2 marks based on the decal I put on my tuner. This held true across four different barrels -- all of which shot teen aggs at various times. The number is different for my Unlimited gun, but even more stable in its performance. I have an adjustment for humidity changes, but generally don't need it much. I know a few others who correlate both numbers together in a density altitude formula. That works too, but I'm too cheap to spring for a fancy meter when I can do my math on my fingers. (For those with 28tpi Beggs tuners, this is 2 "clock numbers" per 5 degrees temperature).

This formula does not tell you where to start the day -- only how much to "expect" to move the tuner from the "last known good" position. The key is using the tuner to stay exactly on the sweet spot inside a tune node (i.e. the flat group).

There is a lot of good vibration analysis out there, but for me the numbers simply don't work when you extrapolate them to the sensitivity of the tiny tuner adjustments that I know do work. There is a white paper by a long range, live varmint shooter that does correlate to my findings. While he doesn't use tuners, his shock wave pulse models match my tuner analysis for both my LV and UNL guns. Check out Chris Long's paper on Optimal Barrel Time at http://www.the-long-family.com/OBT_paper.htm. (BTW Chris has some credentials like NASA Fellow Engineer, or something similar-- very bright guy). My synopsis is that tweaking the tuner effectively changes the "length" of the barrel and re-times the position of the shock wave pulse vs. the bullet exit. Small, large, beyond the muzzle or not, wouldn't matter if this is actually the case.

Rod Brown

(Corrected - original post had the tuner going the wrong direction)
 
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Thanks Rod for your analysis. I have a few questions for you but may save those for an evening out at the range in Billings this year if we can make it to the Montana state.

I want to clarify to everyone that my initial question was to find some answers. I ended up finding most of the answers I wanted without this thread flaring up. There are MANY tuner theories out there and basically 3 camps when it comes to tuners. This will NEVER change as to thoughts or ideas in every aspect of the sport.

Thanks again to those who stuck there necks out on the line in the public Forum and by PM.

So no I am not a Pr*CK if anyone ever thought that. I wanted to find something out and I have a pretty good start. Now to get some tuners and play around with them.

Calvin
 
Rod,
Thank you for sharing information that has so much experience behind it, and being so specific. (copied, pasted, saved, and printed)
Boyd
 
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