Want membership to grow, increased interest in matches, more classes ? Instead of griping the organizations are not responsive to YOUR needs. Bring a friend to a match get them to join NBRSA/IBS/what ever if every member would bring 1 more person with them into BR you would DOUBLE the size of the org's in a year. instead of complaining be proactive.
Growing the IBS
- Thread starter R. Rains
- Start date
Well, for one thing, with the exception of some people pointing out the cost of traveling and such, I haven't seen anything in this thread about people seeking remedy for their personal needs. If you think suggestions about how rules and meetings are conducted somehow fit in there you are mistaken.
At first glance, your suggestion looks really great. In reality, that's probably how most of us got involved in benchrest to begin with. The problem is, it doesn't address the start up costs or the intimidation factor that most potential competitors face. Several, including Wilbur have suggested that mentors make available all the tools to get a newby started. That's an excellent suggestion. So, how many of us are willing to do that? Are you? And then you have more than a few who are satisfied to continue with things as they are.
Most of us who have posted on this thread are looking for answers. We already know things that won't work. We're trying to make some NEW mistakes.
Rick
M
mike in co
Guest
do not shoot the messenger!.....
input from lynn...
"Donovan I have shot at a few matches.
Wilbur I have loaned out great shooting guns to first time shooters.
Dick Grosbier if you think the president or vice president of the NBRSA wants more shooters at matches you are delusional and need immediate medical attention.They hate the IBS as well and will say it to your face or by phone as one is anti-social.Call 707-921-9474 and I'll let You know what they think about you and your organization.
To solve all of your problems only listen to like minded shooters.
Ignore all advice if it isn't your own.
Allow only the big dogs to have any say at all and have Wilbur kick the rest off of his sponsored website.
By following these simple steps your chances of winning increase each year as more and more shooters will leave the sport.
You won't have to listen to the truth just what you want to hear and rose colored shooting glasses are really quite fashionable with brown shoes.
Lynn"
input from lynn...
"Donovan I have shot at a few matches.
Wilbur I have loaned out great shooting guns to first time shooters.
Dick Grosbier if you think the president or vice president of the NBRSA wants more shooters at matches you are delusional and need immediate medical attention.They hate the IBS as well and will say it to your face or by phone as one is anti-social.Call 707-921-9474 and I'll let You know what they think about you and your organization.
To solve all of your problems only listen to like minded shooters.
Ignore all advice if it isn't your own.
Allow only the big dogs to have any say at all and have Wilbur kick the rest off of his sponsored website.
By following these simple steps your chances of winning increase each year as more and more shooters will leave the sport.
You won't have to listen to the truth just what you want to hear and rose colored shooting glasses are really quite fashionable with brown shoes.
Lynn"
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M
mks
Guest
Actually more serious than tongue-in-cheek. Seems like it is time to look at what it would take to make these two rather common sense changes. But seriously, only one proxy per member!? It would take hundreds of thousands of dollars for we out-of-state shooters to get anything done. (Sorry, I was slow in seeing the real issue.)
Keith
M
mks
Guest
Why not on the website? Just asking.
Directors are allowed to carry more then one proxy for voteing purposes.
You simply fill out the proxy form and notify IBS recording secretary of your proxy s.from each club.
As i have said before change for the better is always welcome change for the sake of change is not.
I read one proposed rule change a while ago. It was so poorly written that you could interperted it several ways.
The intent of the rule cjange should be clear and to the point, as simple as possable.
You simply fill out the proxy form and notify IBS recording secretary of your proxy s.from each club.
As i have said before change for the better is always welcome change for the sake of change is not.
I read one proposed rule change a while ago. It was so poorly written that you could interperted it several ways.
The intent of the rule cjange should be clear and to the point, as simple as possable.
mwezell
Mike Ezell
The IBS bylaws are on their website. This is all I saw relating to proxy numbers. I saw no mention of directors being able to carry more, but I may be wrong. If so, please point it out for me.
Section 4. Voting
1. Each Individual or Associate or Life Member is entitled to one vote.
2. Each Individual or Associate or Life Member may designate any other Individual or Life Member as
proxy provided written authorization is filed with the Executive Secretary. Such authorization shall
be valid for only one meeting. An Individual or Life member may accumulate no more than one (1)
proxy at any meeting.
3. A majority of the members present, or by proxy, is controlling unless specified otherwise in these ByLaws.
4. Proxy voting on Temporary Rules: At the time the ballots for election of IBS Executive Officers are
mailed to the membership, the temporary rules are to be forwarded with said ballot. These temporary
1
Amended from “July” at the January 2012 IBS Annual Meeting.IBS By-Laws January 2012
4
rules will include a recommendation (for or against) based on the investigation of the proper
committee. The membership shall, at the time of receiving their ballot, vote for or against making
each temporary rule permanent.
5. Should a temporary rule need to be revised, this revision would become a new temporary rule subject
to another year’s trial. This will allow the membership, at large, an opportunity to vote for or against
this revision at the next mailing and give all members an opportunity to voice their opinion.
Section 4. Voting
1. Each Individual or Associate or Life Member is entitled to one vote.
2. Each Individual or Associate or Life Member may designate any other Individual or Life Member as
proxy provided written authorization is filed with the Executive Secretary. Such authorization shall
be valid for only one meeting. An Individual or Life member may accumulate no more than one (1)
proxy at any meeting.
3. A majority of the members present, or by proxy, is controlling unless specified otherwise in these ByLaws.
4. Proxy voting on Temporary Rules: At the time the ballots for election of IBS Executive Officers are
mailed to the membership, the temporary rules are to be forwarded with said ballot. These temporary
1
Amended from “July” at the January 2012 IBS Annual Meeting.IBS By-Laws January 2012
4
rules will include a recommendation (for or against) based on the investigation of the proper
committee. The membership shall, at the time of receiving their ballot, vote for or against making
each temporary rule permanent.
5. Should a temporary rule need to be revised, this revision would become a new temporary rule subject
to another year’s trial. This will allow the membership, at large, an opportunity to vote for or against
this revision at the next mailing and give all members an opportunity to voice their opinion.
M
mike in co
Guest
gentlemen and ladies,
i have nothing wrong with the idea of increasing membership and shooters at ranges
BUT
if you think you can ignore what the right hand is doing while generating members in the left hand, you are sadly mistaken.
you need to fix the mess you currently have FIRST.
IF YOU THINK YOU DO NOT HAVE PROBLEMS...well there is another problem.
how do you expect to gain clubs when you are losing clubs due to poor board management ?
how do expect to gain members when they see thier money going in and no voice in the operation....the anual meeting is a joke.
fix things first then go market yourselves to the world.
mike in co
i have nothing wrong with the idea of increasing membership and shooters at ranges
BUT
if you think you can ignore what the right hand is doing while generating members in the left hand, you are sadly mistaken.
you need to fix the mess you currently have FIRST.
IF YOU THINK YOU DO NOT HAVE PROBLEMS...well there is another problem.
how do you expect to gain clubs when you are losing clubs due to poor board management ?
how do expect to gain members when they see thier money going in and no voice in the operation....the anual meeting is a joke.
fix things first then go market yourselves to the world.
mike in co
goodgrouper
tryingtobeabettergrouper
Absolutely! I had this very discussion with our match director this year. He commented that we should have more younger shooters than what we have. He surmised (as many do) that the younger folks "aren't interested in anything that doesn't come quick and easy". Well, that made me a bit upset. Well, pi$$ed is probably a better word. He forgets, he's been at this game for 20 years and has had all the equipment he needs for a very long time. He stockpiled bullets, powder, primers, barrels, rests, bags, and every other possible thing needed. He's forgotten how damn expensive this game is if you have to buy this stuff today. He tried to tell me that a guy can get into this game for under $2500. I just about swallowed my tongue. You can't even dream about this game for less than than $3000. Buy a used rifle= $1,200 Buy a used Weaver scope=$300. You'll need a new barrel and chambering=$450. Let's say your grandpa left you all his loading gear=free. Now you need a rest and find a bargain ($200). Rear bag from somebody getting out and selling cheap $50. Now, flags and stands from yard sale and you make your own vanes and tails ($100). Now bullets, 8# jug of powder, and primers. Somebody helps you out as a newbie and gives this stuff to you for 1/2 price ($200). Now you need a new barrel cause you toasted your's with 800 rounds down it trying to learn how to read the tune and wind ($450). Ok, on to the first match......$50 registration dues and $100 match fee. Oh, and gas to get there, food, lodging, and three to four days off from work (conservative at $300). Are we over that proposed $2,500 yet????? Of course we are. My tally shows a very, very conservative $3,400. Now, tell the wife that you can get into BR for $3,400 and shoot once a year, OR you can buy an 870 pump shotgun, a one year membership to a trap club, a shell bag, and five cases of shells for $1,500 and shoot once a week for a year and see which one she lets you do! Oh, and did I mention, you can learn all you need to know about trap shooting from an instructor in one evening. BR info needs YEARS to learn.......and if you have no one to teach it to you it will take DECADES.............gee, I wonder why more younger folks aren't lined up to play this game! It ain't 'cause they're lazy. It's 'cause it just plain ain't feasible or practical for 99% of them. I know, I've brought several guys in their 20's and 30's to our matches because they were interested in what it takes to shoot those itty bitty groups. They got hot and excited at it all until I threw a basic number at them for cost. You shoulda seen their eyes glaze over.
$2,500........I wish! Maybe back in the 80's and early 90's. Not anymore. Just look at how much powder had gone up in the last 5 years. Look at the price of copper, lead, aluminum, etc. Even adjusting for inflation, there's no comparison from yesteryear to today.
A guy has got to be really motivated to play this game or he just plain ain't gonna play it no matter how you dress it up or how many incentives you give him. It's as I said before, benchrest doesn't find shooters. Shooters find benchrest. And if they're really lucky, their wives will let them keep it for awhile.......
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Mike I know the economy sucks but not everyone is living from payday to payday and I don't think IBS or NBRSA can fix that.......cost is a factor but as a couple of people, LHSmith and Mike Bryant pointed out you don't need the latest and greatest to start shooting Benchrest. I still don't see cost as the BIGGEST barrier to starting Benchrest..........I was told once people find the money to do what they want to do......and many years latter I have to agree with that. After looking through the classifieds I'd say at present you could buy most of what you need to start shooting Benchrest for around $3k
Creating an entry level class that is local is up to individuals at the local club, not IBS or NBRSA.......But I think a National factory entry class would be a great idea........this would cut the initial startup cost........but I have to say factory rifles are so frustrating to shoot compared to a BR rifle.
There are a lot of things I wouldn't cross the street to do.........but when it comes to Benchrest shooting I've flown 1/2 way round the world to get my butt kicked and catch up with friends.
My interpretation of a factory class is that they may shoot in the same match as a BR rifle but if it's a "factory class" the factory class shooters would be competing against each other not the BR rifle shooters.
If someone knows about Benchrest shooting and isn't interested then there is no way anything will entice them to compete....simple. As someone said Benchrest doesn't find shooters Shooters find Benchrest........but if some of the barriers can be reduced then more shooters may find Benchrest.
gtbc82.........you make some very good points
Wilbur I think both, but for that to be answered it has to be decided WHAT needs/can to be done.
Some of the things I've picked up out of this thread
A/ IBS needs to find a way for everyone to attend the meetings and have a say. (Don't know if this will bring in more shooters but it may stop some leaving from what I read in this thread)
B/ Co operation between IBS & NBRSA the governing organisations???? (this seems to be the hardest one)
C/ Starter class. (this would reduce the start-up cost)
D/ Eliminate or reduce some of the barriers to enable people to compete. (Mentors?? Benchrest schools??)
Any more ideas???????
Seems a simple list and none of these can be done in 5 minutes.............Ian
In a few weeks, I'm sure it will be listed under "News"....until then you can easily access the last meeting minutes (2012)...or click the "About" header on the home page and get Official Meeting Minutes from previous years ....which all were held on the 2nd or 3rd week in Jan.....all at the same place. This info is easy to access.
Guys - forget factory class! They ain't coming.....
All the factory shooters want is a close range where they COULD go compete in the offchance that they didn't have anything else to do. They have no commitment. Try it if you like but it ain't gonna work in terms of new competitors or members. Another reason it won't work is that the only differences in shooting a match and just shooting is the entry fee and they don't get to pick when.
Folks have to see the game as it really is and they can't do that shooting a factory rifle - unless it's one of "THOSE" factory rifles. On the other hand, if you offered to loan them your complete setup and spend (throw away) an expensive weekend showing them the ropes, they might just become interested.
Put together some turnkey "loaner" rigs and run with it. I'll create a place to advertise the availability of such on a match to match basis. Y'all have enough stuff just laying around to have a hundred or more complete rigs for loan. I've got 15 or so Panda barrels somewhere here - full of dirt dauber nests I would guess.
I can't, in good conscience, leave it there as a significant problem exists with the stated "loaner rigs". Coming up with a loaner rig is simple compared to hauling the stuff from match to match. You gotta grit your teeth and say "I'll do it".
All the factory shooters want is a close range where they COULD go compete in the offchance that they didn't have anything else to do. They have no commitment. Try it if you like but it ain't gonna work in terms of new competitors or members. Another reason it won't work is that the only differences in shooting a match and just shooting is the entry fee and they don't get to pick when.
Folks have to see the game as it really is and they can't do that shooting a factory rifle - unless it's one of "THOSE" factory rifles. On the other hand, if you offered to loan them your complete setup and spend (throw away) an expensive weekend showing them the ropes, they might just become interested.
Put together some turnkey "loaner" rigs and run with it. I'll create a place to advertise the availability of such on a match to match basis. Y'all have enough stuff just laying around to have a hundred or more complete rigs for loan. I've got 15 or so Panda barrels somewhere here - full of dirt dauber nests I would guess.
I can't, in good conscience, leave it there as a significant problem exists with the stated "loaner rigs". Coming up with a loaner rig is simple compared to hauling the stuff from match to match. You gotta grit your teeth and say "I'll do it".
The cost of Benchrest is no different then many other hobby/sport. Ask a dedicated fisherman, motorcyclist, etc. what they invest in 5-years time.
I see the cost as being irrelevant. You either afford it or you don't, just like most everything else in life.
Myself, I have to shoot more limited because of the economy the past couple years, but I still go and still compete, just not to as much.
In 2003 I went to my first ever Benchrest match with a $950 gun ( paid $800 for a used glued in XP-100 6PPC and $150 Swift scope-8x32). It was NBRSA 100/200 Group at Minnitonka. I finished 5th out of 26 that first day out.
The first year I shot 600/1000-BR (2005) I used a trued actioned 700 VLS with the factory stock and a 3" plate bolted on the fore-end.
I used that same $150 8x32 Swift from the PPC starting out and re-barreled to a Shilen in 6Dasher and a J-trigger.
Had less then $1200 into that one, starting out. Put on a NF scope and a BR-stock for the 2nd season, which is how I shoot it yet today.
Myself, I can never afford what so many others are able, but I have the will to go, and I make do, and always have.
Over the years now, some of my equipment is pretty good stuff, but much of it is still homemade or 2nd hand.
The will to win, compares little with the will to prepare to win, and is something you can't buy.
Happy Shooting
Donovan Moran
I see the cost as being irrelevant. You either afford it or you don't, just like most everything else in life.
Myself, I have to shoot more limited because of the economy the past couple years, but I still go and still compete, just not to as much.
In 2003 I went to my first ever Benchrest match with a $950 gun ( paid $800 for a used glued in XP-100 6PPC and $150 Swift scope-8x32). It was NBRSA 100/200 Group at Minnitonka. I finished 5th out of 26 that first day out.
The first year I shot 600/1000-BR (2005) I used a trued actioned 700 VLS with the factory stock and a 3" plate bolted on the fore-end.
I used that same $150 8x32 Swift from the PPC starting out and re-barreled to a Shilen in 6Dasher and a J-trigger.
Had less then $1200 into that one, starting out. Put on a NF scope and a BR-stock for the 2nd season, which is how I shoot it yet today.
Myself, I can never afford what so many others are able, but I have the will to go, and I make do, and always have.
Over the years now, some of my equipment is pretty good stuff, but much of it is still homemade or 2nd hand.
The will to win, compares little with the will to prepare to win, and is something you can't buy.
Happy Shooting
Donovan Moran
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Apollo
Jason Stanley
Here is an easy/practical suggestion:
Hold regular IBS/NBRSA matches. (I'm not sure on the rules here)- invite/advertise new shooters/factory rifles to compete alongside the custom guys, but not in the same class. Group or score doesn't matter. The registered IBS/NBRSA shooters would still have their match and the "Factory" guys could have theirs. (Basically have a registered and unregistered match at same time- again not sure on rules) Make the plaques/trophies/awards however the club wants it. If the club doesn't want to give as big awards for the unregistered group - make the entry fee smaller.
Here's the cool part. When all the competitive shooting is done - hang one more set of targets. Each "Custom" gun owner reloads 10 more rounds. New/potential members can then go to different rifles and shoot 5 rounds - then switch to another rifle. The custom gun owner would stay by his/her rifle and provide feedback/information/friendship to the new shooter. Heck - this would be fun even for the people who already own bench rifles. Let the new shooters get a taste of how accurate and smooth these rifles are. If they like it - they will come back.
One last suggestion - when new shooters show up to matches - invite them to join you for drinks/supper afterwards. One of the main reasons I stuck with Benchrest is the social part afterwards (well...ok...before/during/afterwards) Imagine a new guy, in the midwest, sitting at a table with Al Nyhus. Mike Bigelow, RG, Ronnie Berg, Stan Ware, Ron Shultz, Chad Shmidt, Craig Nagel, Dave Halblom, etc, etc, etc. Life don't get much better than that. The people will entice new shooters - not the IBS/NBRSA.
Hold regular IBS/NBRSA matches. (I'm not sure on the rules here)- invite/advertise new shooters/factory rifles to compete alongside the custom guys, but not in the same class. Group or score doesn't matter. The registered IBS/NBRSA shooters would still have their match and the "Factory" guys could have theirs. (Basically have a registered and unregistered match at same time- again not sure on rules) Make the plaques/trophies/awards however the club wants it. If the club doesn't want to give as big awards for the unregistered group - make the entry fee smaller.
Here's the cool part. When all the competitive shooting is done - hang one more set of targets. Each "Custom" gun owner reloads 10 more rounds. New/potential members can then go to different rifles and shoot 5 rounds - then switch to another rifle. The custom gun owner would stay by his/her rifle and provide feedback/information/friendship to the new shooter. Heck - this would be fun even for the people who already own bench rifles. Let the new shooters get a taste of how accurate and smooth these rifles are. If they like it - they will come back.
One last suggestion - when new shooters show up to matches - invite them to join you for drinks/supper afterwards. One of the main reasons I stuck with Benchrest is the social part afterwards (well...ok...before/during/afterwards) Imagine a new guy, in the midwest, sitting at a table with Al Nyhus. Mike Bigelow, RG, Ronnie Berg, Stan Ware, Ron Shultz, Chad Shmidt, Craig Nagel, Dave Halblom, etc, etc, etc. Life don't get much better than that. The people will entice new shooters - not the IBS/NBRSA.
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I reckon that's what I've been trying to imply.
M
mike in co
Guest
i'm sorry but if you think cost in todays poor economy is not THE issue, you are living in a different world than the rest of us...
we have cut some of our matches from 50 rds to 25 to reduce cost. one match we switched to 22rim fire one week each month instead of center fire..to reduce costs, discussed reducing another match from 50 to 30 rds to reduce costs...these are all at my two local clubs....concern by members to reduce cost of matches...
you and i ( and my two clubs) are not in the same world...
mike in co
we have cut some of our matches from 50 rds to 25 to reduce cost. one match we switched to 22rim fire one week each month instead of center fire..to reduce costs, discussed reducing another match from 50 to 30 rds to reduce costs...these are all at my two local clubs....concern by members to reduce cost of matches...
you and i ( and my two clubs) are not in the same world...
mike in co
goodgrouper
tryingtobeabettergrouper
I agree with that. If you're serious about it, you'll prioritize whatever you need to to play the game. But most investigational shooters aren't in that boat yet. They are not dedicated yet.
Bottom line is that it just ain't for everybody.
One of my good friends shot his first BR match this past spring. He's had a custom-actioned 6ppc bench gun for three years prior to the match. He bought a Harrells combo press and Harrells powder thrower years ago. He's been reloading for 35 years and has been doing it for accuracy not economy all that time. He loves the sight of bugholes in paper. But, after the match, he told me and I quote, "competitive benchrest shooting is the most excruciating thing I've ever done with a gun in my hands". He then said if he has a day off, he wants to go play. "BR is more work than play any way you want to slice it". I couldn't disagree with that.
He still has all his gear, but he'll never shoot another BR match as long as he lives.
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A lot has been said about what to do. The answer is what has just been said, it's the shooters that will bring in the new people. I've shot will many of you but, my vote for most fun is Bill Gammon!! Besides he has the best grill in BR!!! An he knows how to use it!!
Jeff Aberegg
Jeff Aberegg