Growing the IBS

[Hunter]

for a factory class to work you need competitors.......now if as you propose "with no requirement of being a member of any organisation" how do you propose the running costs of these classes be funded??

I honestly don't know the details of "the running costs of these classes." Does the IBS of NBSRA incur out-of-pocket expenses when a match is held?

I can understand not having the funds to travel, but to have to convince yourself to drive nine hours round trip to shoot, I can not understand.......George and Vera answered that one very well.......but I have to say if I took your attitude I would have never started shooting Benchrest, as my nearest competition is a 18 hour round trip (driving).

There are a lot of things I wouldn't drive nine hours to do; as for driving that far to pay $150 to shoot my factory rifle, the only reason I'd do that would be to be able to say "I got beat by the best of the best."

Since you aren't a member of IBS or NBRSA can you please put it in words what it would take for YOU to join and compete in IBS or NBRSA competition......afterall it's non members that need to answer this question so the organisations get an idea of what they need to do.

Assuming: (a) factory guns are competing for the same trophy as the BR guns, (b) entry fees are much over $50, and (c) one-way travel time exceeds three hours, there's probably not anything that can be done for someone like me.

I don't think cost is the biggest barrier to Benchrest......perhaps it's the percieved intimidation of being the new kid at a competition...............Ian

I'd agree that cost isn't the biggest barrier; I'd say lack of interest is the biggest barrier -- there are a lot of other things folks can do other than shooting. However, as for folks who are interested and who are not participating, I'd say cost is the biggest barrier -- particularly when you factor in time.

 

[Greyfox]

It seems that several folks have an idea of what needs to be done. It seems cleaar to me that some kind of entry level needs to be addressed. To attract enough new shooters to keep things growing, even at a small rate, it seems to me a Factory class is a must. Rules for custom classes don't need to be changed, but you must give new shooters an opportunity to shoot along side of precision rifles without being intimidated by them. Most folks even barely interested have a good shooting factory rifle and probably some basic reloading gear. That's a place to start.

A nine hour round trip does seem a little heavy, but I shot at Buck Creek KY for 5-6 years before we started at Gallatin. That's about a 7 hour round tripper. If you really want to compete, there is a way and there are 2-3 ranges shooting NBRSA matches as well as some IBS matches closer than we are.

I didn't renew my IBS membership after it was made very clear to me right here on this board that it would be impossible to get meaningful rule changes made unless one was able to gather a significant number of like minded people to attend the annual meeting. If you don't live within a few hundred miles, you are out of luck. I would be able to attend and have at least one proxy vote with me, but significant change would require far more folks. Most of us don't have the time or $$ to do that. I see no good reason in this age of communication that this can't be addressed.

We have managed to deal with all or most of these things in our area. I am able to shoot matches 2-3 times per month and have a very good time. We have enough participants to make things work well and we are growing. It's not brain surgery to figure out how to grow, but you must do something. It's a certainty that if you keep doing things the same way, you will get the same results.

Rick

 

[LHSmith]

First on the cost aspect while you have to have the top of the line equipment such as Farley coaxial rest, Leupold or March competition scope, BAT/Farley/Panda action, etc. to go to a match and participate, you do if you want to compete. Add in cost of barrels, reloading components including match bullets and it really adds up quick and can be overwhelming.




.

I will beg to differ, Matches are being won with old Hart actions in short range group and VFS, trued Remington actions (in Hunter/ VH Class), non-windage Hart rests, 30 year old Protektor all leather bags still using talcum powder , Weaver and B&L 36x scopes.....Weaver 6x all steel El Paso scopes in 6x classes .It is a misconception that most new shooters make, because most of the equipment on the line is as you mentioned. Take the time to review the photos of matches as posted on the IBS website and see what equipment the most consistently successful competitors are using.

 

[Hunter]

I just got into benchrest shooting this year...[a]t the matches I have attended.

I'd be interested in hearing: (a) what equipment you're using, (b) did you shoot any factory-class matches before shooting full-blown BR-class matches, (c) approx cost of such equipment, (d) are you a member of IBS or NBRSA, and (e) where and how many registered matches you've attended?

 

[Mike Bryant]

I agree with LHSmith, to shoot benchrest you don't have to have to get caught up in the latest and greatest equipment race to come down the pike. I started off shooting benchrest with a sleeved Remington 700 glued into a McMillan benchrest stock with a Hart barrel chambered for a .22 PPC. I shot it for a few years and attended the '83 nationals at Midland where I could only shoot LV and HV because of the .22 caliber. I was shooting on a front rest that I had welded together using a 3/4" all thread for a riser post with a Protector front bag sitting on it and a Protector rear bag. Wilson neck size die and Wilson seater and a Lyman 55 powder measure rounded out the loading equipment. I was competitive at the time and would still be competitive with the rifle, if I still had it as it would shoot groups in the teens. Of course, it would need a new barrel now which would add as much expense to the original cost now as the whole rifle cost back then.

For a new shooter just getting in to benchrest, I'd look at the used benchrest rifles for sale. My son bought a used rifle with a Panda glued into a Kelbly stock for $1200 a few years ago. Even with the used barrel on it, it would shoot better than what he could starting out. He put a Weaver scope on it for about $400. You could still use the Wilson neck size die and seater for about $100 or less, a cobbled together front rest for next to nothing, leather front and rear sandbags new or used, Dewey cleaning rod, and be shooting for somewhere probably less than $2000. Benchrest can be shot on a shoestring budget, but it just depends upon what you want to give up to do it and it all doesn't have to be bought at the same time. For my first custom action, a Meyer right bolt right port, I sold a couple of pistols and a SKB shotgun to pay for the parts to build the next rifle. A friend of mine chambered the barrel after hours at the machine shop where he worked.

Don't look at the competitors list of what the winners are shooting. You don't have to have a $4 to 5000 rifle with a $2250 scope and a $1000 front rest to be competitive. You can do it with a lot less. You may wind up with that after you succumb to the benchrest addiction, but you can probably get into benchrest for not much more than the cost of a good custom made AR-15 rifle. And you don't have to shoot every match that's on the calendar. The first year I shot 2 matches, the second year 4 matches including the LV and HV classes at the NBRSA nationals at Midland. I don't remember how I finished there, but I wasn't last.

If there is anything that has probably hurt people getting into benchrest, it's the aggs that people see being shot. Used to be a .25" agg would win, now it seems that it takes a teen agg. However, that's not always the case, the teen aggs are what everyone notices. But, teen aggs intimidate shooters getting into the sport. The HV at the Rattlesnake this year was won with a .2488 agg, the two gun with a .2663" agg.

As to growing the IBS, the IBS and NBRSA both need to be reformed back into one organization. There aren't enough of us for two separate organizations. Most of the ones that were alive when the IBS split off from the NBRSA are no longer here to even remember what the cause was.

 

[GerryM]

I doubt a merger will take place for various reasons. That said I do believe a slight differance iin some match attendance would occur if NBRSA alowed IBS members to shoot in their matches. It would be good for hosting clubs.
Its not always the cost of the NBRSA card. While some need to villonize IBS it should be made clear that IBS allowes
NBRSA members to shoot in their matchs. IBS is the good guy on that one.

 

[mwezell]

I saw where Keith quoted this elsewhere and thought it fit nicely within this discussion.
Albert Einstein: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results."

 

[GerryM]

GREYFOX. The rule changes , each year IBS is bombarded with some kind of rule change.
Actually the rules do need to be streemlined. { There are to many at times}
To do a rule change you need 25 signitures from members to bring the proposal to the floor for discussion. or for the board to review the proposal. You can deligate {VIA proxy} to have someone to speek on your behalf on the proposed rule change. I believe that the board and president are very fair minded about that .
The idea of a signiture patition is to discourage worthless In put' or frivelious types of changes in the rule book.
If the proposed change is a change for the better it would seriously be considered. Remember it takes some kind of majority to impliment a rule change. Once apporved they are valid for a ry out for 1 year before being made permanent. The clubs that make the $$$$ from the shoots should PAY for your attendance at the anual meeting. after all they get the financial benefit. I doubt it would break a clubs piggy bank to let go of some of the match profits. Its the fair thing to do if they want true representation.
PS forgive the spelling my spellcheck doesn't want to work on this program.

 

[mwezell]

GREYFOX. The rule changes , each year IBS is bombarded with some kind of rule change.
Actually the rules do need to be streemlined. { There are to many at times}
To do a rule change you need 25 signitures from members to bring the proposal to the floor for discussion. or for the board to review the proposal. You can deligate {VIA proxy} to have someone to speek on your behalf on the proposed rule change. I believe that the board and president are very fair minded about that .
The idea of a signiture patition is to discourage worthless In put' or frivelious types of changes in the rule book.
If the proposed change is a change for the better it would seriously be considered. Remember it takes some kind of majority to impliment a rule change. Once apporved they are valid for a ry out for 1 year before being made permanent. The clubs that make the $$$$ from the shoots should PAY for your attendance at the anual meeting. after all they get the financial benefit. I doubt it would break a clubs piggy bank to let go of some of the match profits. Its the fair thing to do if they want true representation.
PS forgive the spelling my spellcheck doesn't want to work on this program.

I'm sorry Gerry, but that's completely out of touch with reality.

To start with, most clubs do well to keep our game sustainable financially...Nobody is making money hand over fist that I'm aware of. Doing what you propose from this area would cost in the neighborhood of $1500 per person, and the only way to assure that it passes is to have 20-30 people to vote the same way. Granted, on some issues it may well be doable without taking people from your AREA along at a reduced price per person if carpooling and sharing motel rooms. But some issues are geographical in nature. Obviously the area with the most representation will stand a better chance of either passing or voting down a proposal. I can give a specific topic, but that's probably better left to a new thread. Bottom line, to send 20-30 people 750 miles is going to cost in the area of $1000 apiece, including travel, meals and motels. A club is better off keeping those kind of funds, if they have them to begin with. I'd never expect any club to foot that kind of bill except as extenuating circumstance where the clubs viability were at stake, as a whole.

Oh, and not to mention lost wages by those sent.

 

[Greyfox]

GREYFOX. The rule changes , each year IBS is bombarded with some kind of rule change.
Actually the rules do need to be streemlined. { There are to many at times}
To do a rule change you need 25 signitures from members to bring the proposal to the floor for discussion. or for the board to review the proposal. You can deligate {VIA proxy} to have someone to speek on your behalf on the proposed rule change. I believe that the board and president are very fair minded about that .
The idea of a signiture patition is to discourage worthless In put' or frivelious types of changes in the rule book.
If the proposed change is a change for the better it would seriously be considered. Remember it takes some kind of majority to impliment a rule change. Once apporved they are valid for a ry out for 1 year before being made permanent. The clubs that make the $$$$ from the shoots should PAY for your attendance at the anual meeting. after all they get the financial benefit. I doubt it would break a clubs piggy bank to let go of some of the match profits. Its the fair thing to do if they want true representation.
PS forgive the spelling my spellcheck doesn't want to work on this program.

Gerry,
With all due respect, I know all about the petitions and the voting requirements to implement a rule change. I won't go into all the financial ramifications you mention except to say that only about 10% of those who attend our matches are members of the Gallatin Gun Club. Up until this year, the actual "profit" from all last year's matches was about a $100 loss. By the time you pay someone to run targets, food & trophies, there isn't much, if anything left. And that doesn't begin to address the time off required to attend the meeting.
I'm sure you mean well, but it doesn't work. The fact is, attendance to a meeting in a particular location shouldn't be necessary.

Quite honestly, I don't give a rip about what the IBS does anymore. I offer suggestions for benchrest shooting as a whole. I am a member of the NBRSA so that I can get the magazine, but I doubt I'll attend matches any time soon. I'm too busy with UBR matches.

Rick

 

[Wayne Shaw]

Now that about 150 posts have been made on this, I'll offer a couple things of my own opinion. To get people into the BR game, they have to be ACCURACY minded. Just shooting doesn't get it, it's the drive and desire for the little holes that keep someone on the game. I've seen many people get the "bug", invest thousands of dollars in guns, loading trailers, equipment, and then fall off the face of the earth in 2 years. I think varmint hunters, those guys that try to knock off the groundhogs and prairie dogs are more likely to have the accuracy itch. It has been tried, placing fliers in gun shops, inviting people to come out and "shoot what ya got". There are some crazy people out there just looking for a place and excuse to rip off a hundred rounds and not get in trouble. You have to be careful.

Cost definitely is a factor, even for those that are old timers in the game. Can you imagine having to go out and buy everything new to shoot now days? I can't. I also think that most of the folks that have shot for some time have 2 of everything. Rests, bags, reloading stuff. This mentor thing has merit. Attitude has been mentioned, and the way people are treated at a match is very real. I've been to new ranges (new to me) and have been treated with as friendly an attitude you could ask for. I've also been treated like I wrestled with a skunk on the way and not a soul would even acknowledge I was standing there, cause I wasn't "one of them". Sad but true. Yes, shooting the first few times is very intimidating, and to be treated like you're from no-man's-land to boot could easily turn someone off for good.

It's no secret, I pushed to change the voting rules. I fully agree that the requirement to be at the winter meeting to vote is "old school". That was written a long time ago, when members weren't scattered all over the Country. It needs to change, it needs to be fair for all members.

When a new shooter shows up, be nice to him or her. Help them with their setup, talk to them about the targets and time constraints. If someone shows up with a varmint rifle and a bipod, let them shoot, explain the single loading and safety. You'll never get someone to come back if they are given a hard time or treated like sh*t.

 

[GerryM]

You don't need 25 people to go to the annual meeting Greyfox Just the director to plead your case,
Anyway I hope you enjoy your shooting even though it's not in the IBS.
IBS will honor your card though even though you don't belong to it. But the REAL question was
HOW do we GET IBS to grow. All Ive heard so far is complaints about IBS.
Some logical input at times and OPINIONS well every one has one just like ones Nose.

 

[GerryM]

+1 for wayne
Ive sen it too New people get into the game Start out slow the first year as a rookie get going really well after that and then their shooting fades. Bingo the hummer barrel wore out. Now he gets a new barrel done by a different smith {both or a different brand and his shooting is sub par. He gets discouraged. He kicked some tail on the way up, some shooters don't like it give him or her {seldom} the cold shoulder. Now as you said he bails out.
You really have to like the game to begin with, It takes alot of time and effoert to get up to the top.
Thats why I think some kind of classification system should be in place.
One could start out on a low classification and gradually work up to a higher one , at the same time learn
from the top shooters and try to beat them. This way your competeing on more then one skill level

 

[Greyfox]

You don't need 25 people to go to the annual meeting Greyfox Just the director to plead your case,
Anyway I hope you enjoy your shooting even though it's not in the IBS.
IBS will honor your card though even though you don't belong to it. But the REAL question was
HOW do we GET IBS to grow. All Ive heard so far is complaints about IBS.
Some logical input at times and OPINIONS well every one has one just like ones Nose.

Gerry,
Even if the director felt that the change was necessary, he only has one vote. When the attending membership is against a proposed change, the director isn't going to commit political suicide to support folks who aren't there. It's water under the bridge and I'm past being bothered by it. Hey, it is what it is and I've moved on. But I do understand how the game is played.

For the record, I'm not complaining about the IBS. I'm only pointing out changes that need to made made to encourage growth rather than contraction. I am enjoying competing, thank you.

Rick

 

[Wilbur]

So, are we looking for something we can do individually or something for other folks to do?

 

[Greyfox]

So, are we looking for something we can do individually or something for other folks to do?

Both.

 

[mwezell]

I have an idea...come to a UBR match and see how it's done. UBR has put most of the suggestions mentioned here to fruition, and it's working at the ranges I shoot most. Enough of the talk.

 

[mks]

So, are we looking for something we can do individually or something for other folks to do?

What do you say we take up a collection to send Ezell, or someone willing, to the meeting with hundreds of proxies to 1. change voting to online, and 2. institute a factory class? I'll chip in.

By the way, how does one even find out when and where the meeting is? I can't find it on the IBS website.

Cheers,
Keith

 

[Greyfox]

What do you say we take up a collection to send Ezell, or someone willing, to the meeting with hundreds of proxies to 1. change voting to online, and 2. institute a factory class? I'll chip in.

By the way, how does one even find out when and where the meeting is? I can't find it on the IBS website.

Cheers,
Keith

Keith,
I know that your post was more than a little tongue in cheek, but that is one of the problems. A member who attends can only carry with him one proxy vote. BTW- nice to see you at Wilmore. I lusted after your new rifle

Rick

 

[mwezell]

Thanks alot, Keith You'd think those topics would pass overwhelmingly. Afterall, why not? Why not make it easy for every voice to be heard? It's been tried already, to get this done. There is opposition....WHY? You'll have to carry the torch, since I didn't renew my IBS membership this year. Get this done and I'll renew.