Growing the IBS

[mike in co]

here is a POSITIVE suggestion...move the annual meeting to online or the middle of the usa...not the fricking frozen north in the middle of winter.


do you even understand the NEGATIVE affect the meeting time and location have on growing the ibs ???

or the so-called "democratic" process.........it's not democratic if most members cannot be there..it goes to those with money or proxsemity.....that is not democratic at all.

establish a national factory class.....list of which rifles are eligible........bedding trigger and crown...no other work......simple rules..only rifles listed..not listed not eligible.
end of rules.( just because comapny A makes a 6ppc production rifle does not mean it has to be on the list)

 

[MarkR]

SOME TIMES YOU NARROW MINDED NOR EASTERNS are just humorus beyond belief.
tell me what chance does a single item from outside have of getting passed ?? zero nada zip....
i was not born yesterday.......
how about this...the current system does not work..it supports a small group of clubs from the noreast...it is not international..i cannot even support the views of the entire us of a.
mike in co

Hows about you come out and play with us NBRSA and IBS shooters some time instead of just playing chin music...

 

[Hal D.]

To all the prospective new shooters, Mike in Co is a Keyboard BR shooter, and doesn't represent Benchrest in any way. It would be nice if we could have some ID on these forums so that newbies would know who they should listen to.

 

[UncleB]

the ibs is done..because they are narrow minded.
they had western members but ignored them and thier wishes.
they had western clubs but insulted them and lost them.
ibs needs new management that understands it is not an east coast club......
marketing for new members will not fix any of the above...
fix the problem, not the symptoms

mike in co

I have been on this forum for .......a time, most of my objections have been about MIC.......
WOW he is right on this !!!!

 

[dmoran65]

to Mike in CO -

I have to ask you this question: How many IBS and/or NBRSA sanctioned matches have entered and actually shot in ?
(asking in regards to both short range BR and long range BR)

I am aware that you entered and participated in 1 match at CRC in 2010 and it was an IBS1000 registered match. But also am positive that is the only registered IBS/NBRSA 1000yd disciplined match that you have ever shot. What I don't know, is if you have shot any of the registered short range BR games.

The reason asking you this here and now Mike is, there are those here who are saying your a "keyboard BR" shooter (and things to that nature). You have been accused of this several times over several years, and I'm hoping you will come clean and set the record straight, once and for all.
Like I told above, I am aware that you have shot 1 sanctioned registered match. Have you shot others ?
And if you have shot some others that were not IBS or NBRSA sanctioned, please tell us what they were.

Happy Shooting
Donovan Moran

 

[goodgrouper]

Talking like a geezer here, but i don't think the younger folks today grew up in the same time zone a lot of the folks shooting today did. The young ones all got a ribbon when competeting when they were younger, and all i got when i lost was my a$$ kicked. Instant success is the norm today, i think.

Dave, I coach high school lacrosse. It is no different today than when I grew up. Super competitive. That plus the kids are expected to do more in school. Son was admitted to the Farmers School of business at Miami University on the same day he played in the state lacrosse championship, voted first team all region and second team all state specialist (FOGOs and LSMs), My daughter is a year ahead in some classes, is taking Advanced Placement classes, has a 3.8 GPA, a 29 on the ACT before her junior year and has colleges standing in line to give her both academic and athletic money. That is what they are expected to do now...not collect blue ribbons.

I have to agree with Greg here to disagree with Dave's comment. No disrespect Dave, just a different viewpoint from one of those "younger gen" people. In my lifetime in the competitive arena, I was never handed a trophy or a ribbon just for showing up or just for trying. In fact, in almost every sport other than benchrest, the coach's sons were the only ones who were guaranteed a trophy just for showing up. My last year of city youth baseball was a perfect example. I led the team in RBI's, stolen bases, homeruns, and had twice as many no-hitters than the next best pitcher on the team. But when we won the city championship and it came time to hand out the MVP award, it was given to the coach's kid who missed 25% of our games and showed up late to the other 75%. Incidentally, it was someone from your generation who let this happen even though he knew how bad it looked. Even the guy's son was embarrassed because he knew he didn't earn it.
This kind of crap has been going on for millenia and it certainly didn't start with my generation.

 

[mike in co]

i have mentioned several times what i shoot...
lets start with 1000 br...well its club now thanks to the poor management of ibs.
i shoot local club br..we have 6 classes..only one is br and they are all score.
i also shoot military bolt action benchrest......iron sights, stock rifles.....still br....like it or not.
as to the current quantity of shooting..it is down..i work weekends..so it get in the way of a lot of my shooting.
i WAS an ibs member for several yrs.....
i just shot a .257 3 shot group with a 70 yr milsurplus rifle....with a .365 and a.516....
i own a small collection of guns..i shoot many disciplines.....br is just one.....
the economy has put a stop to lots of my shooting...like the three ar br rifles.
i built the 1000yd rifle......lots of help on line form the gunsmith forum...
the guys that claim i am a keyboard shooter fall in two catagories.
too stupid to learn and those that cannot handle facts, so both resort to name calling.
mike in co

to Mike in CO -

I have to ask you this question: How many IBS and/or NBRSA sanctioned matches have entered and actually shot in ?
(asking in regards to both short range BR and long range BR)

I am aware that you entered and participated in 1 match at CRC in 2010 and it was an IBS1000 registered match. But also am positive that is the only registered IBS/NBRSA 1000yd disciplined match that you have ever shot. What I don't know, is if you have shot any of the registered short range BR games.

The reason asking you this here and now Mike is, there are those here who are saying your a "keyboard BR" shooter (and things to that nature). You have been accused of this several times over several years, and I'm hoping you will come clean and set the record straight, once and for all.
Like I told above, I am aware that you have shot 1 sanctioned registered match. Have you shot others ?
And if you have shot some others that were not IBS or NBRSA sanctioned, please tell us what they were.

Happy Shooting
Donovan Moran

 

[goodgrouper]

I personally don't see a problem with having 2 separate organizations. I don't think a merge would be bad, but I don't see a merger in the cards anyhow.

I don't see a problem with having two organizations either. But having one would probably make it stronger overall.
Like I said earlier, I don't care one way or another. BR is BR and I love it all. If you're into BR, you're alright with me. I don't have to see which membership card someone has to enjoy the sport with them.

As for increasing memberships, I'd love to see it grow, but I don't know if recruiting is feasible because it seems benchrest doesn't find shooters, shooters find benchrest.

Factory classes might bring in a few shooters from time to time, but in general, I think 99% of them have no intention of taking their game to the next level. At our local range, the home club that helps operate the range tried to have a factory class and define what was considered "factory". In no time at all, guys were buying Coopers and Jarretts and Dakotas to gain an advantage over the others. Then they started buying custom barrels and custom triggers and basically doing anything they could to dress up their rifles. In the end, these guys spent enough dough that they could have bought real BR guns and played with the big boys. But all they accoplished was squabbling over who had what and what was fair. None of them saw the big picture. And it was a shame because quite a few of them own lathes, do their own gunsmithing, and love reloading. Some even bought 6br's and 6ppc's. They are prime candidates for BR. But for whatever reason, they will not get into real Benchrest shooting.

 

[Wilbur]

Russell - Most of the comments/ideas that folks posted here were meant to be positive (as in trying to help) from their perspective. That you don't interpret them that way may be an indication of why this conundrum exists.

 

[dmoran65]

to Mike in CO -

Thanks for replying !!!!!!!

So I think I have it straight:
<> You have never shot a registered NBRSA sanctioned event, - long or short range
<> You have never shot a short range or 600yd registered IBS sanctioned match
<> You have shot 1 registered IBS-1000 match (in 2010 at CRC)
<> You were, in the past, a IBS member - so you could shoot the CRC sanctioned IBS match as a registered shooter
<> You shoot a local club, non-sanctioned "Benchrest for Score" deal
<> You shoot "military bolt action benchrest" - is this a sanctioned deal? - a club deal? - or a small group deal?
<> You are a BR-Central Forum active member of some 9-years now

Happy Shooting
Donovan Moran

 

[R. Rains]

Russell - Most of the comments/ideas that folks posted here were meant to be positive (as in trying to help) from their perspective. That you don't interpret them that way may be an indication of why this conundrum exists.

Wilbur I respect your reasons and concerns but, that is why I post my thoughts because of reasons and concerns.

 

[LHSmith]

Use PS (Precision Shooting) Magazine as your primary promoter of the organization and SHOWCASE the IBS.More pictures of shoots with winners and their targets (with today's technology there's no reason more photos can't be included on the website or in PS).Do more James Mock type articles. Do a "range of the month" article highlighting the people running the matches, New products, vendor of the month, more shooter interviews on their techniques, reloading tip of the month. Take the unsold copies to the NRA convention, shot show, local fall sportsmans shows and sell them @ $ x / copy or give them away, instead of storing in some barn. Especially recognize new shooters, particularly youth, and factory class shooters with mention in match reports with pictures.
Since the last decade the PS mag format is very poor. Although 500 yd muzzleloaders may fall into precision shooting.....it's NOT WHAT WE DO AT IBS.
As was said above, use the WEB more effectively to also SHOWCASE the IBS. Instead of a blurb on "What is Benchrest" (todays youth don't take the time to read) show short clips of the various disciplines. Have links to You Tube tutorials like Jack Nearys excellent tuning videos. Have an interactive FAQ to answer questions about the sport esp. concerning what class they might be shooting in and where they might be able to meet with a member to go over basics before showing up cold turkey. There are hordes of potential members on Accurate Shooter.com that just need a nudge to get them to come to matches. You have to remove the apprehension they have to shooting alongside veteran shooters. They know very little about Sanctioned Benchrest and a quick link to a more informative and entertaining IBS website with more club contacts would help tremendously. I have offered to help new recruits previously, but they are intimidated by reading posts from various individuals who supposedly are seasoned veterans.
Old copies of PS magazine given to me was a primary motivator for me to get into BR. A seed was planted in the mid 70's when I first saw true BR rifles at a local range and the one hole targets. All it took was a little nudge from an IBS member and lots of good informative reading material.....too bad it took 25 years for that "nudge."

 

[Bill McIntyre]

Hi Russell,

I too have noticed attendance going down in the registered group matches. That was what prompted me to have those tee shirts made to help the match directors defray their costs. At some point, it makes no sense for them to even conduct a registered match if attendance fees won't even cover the costs. I am encouraged by the increase in attendance that is taking place in the Central Jersey Winter League Matches. Thanks Dana M and Paul K for running them. Some of the new shooters are starting to attend registered matches and thats a good thing. As I see it, we have to support the match directors any way we can. If it becomes too much for them to pull off a match due to low attendance and support their will be no matches. It will be interesting to see what new shooters show up this winter. I will be proactive in trying to recruit them to shoot the registered matches. One last thing, the folks who direct and manage both IBS and NBRSA are doing what they do on their dime. Their time and efforts are most appreciated!

Bill McIntyre

 

[AndyTaber]

First of all.....I am a relative newcomer to the sport having shot BR for three years now. Never been a member of IBS or NBRSA. I shoot our clubs matches and have shot at Harrison (in Michigan).

I now find myself in the position of backing Mike in CO. In the past I have found some of his comments to be annoying, but ignorable. In a thread about 'How to grow the IBS" it would seem that ALL voices should be heard regardless of their shooting sanctioned matches. Your most immediate source of new members, new shooters, new participation are those fringe people with all the equipment that are already shooting at events. How can you tell them their opinion doesn't count because "You aren't one of us?" and then go out and promote Benchrest as the "friendly" shooting discipline?

 

[windflag]

Mike Co. You have an axe to grind and that is your right. Getting benchrest moving in the right direction needs a meeting of the minds and not a war of the minds.
It is very hard to get a club to invest in to group shooting because of the commitment needed from the said club. The clubs are filled with guys that only want to sight in their hunting rifle and believe paying their dews is all that is needed to keep the club functioning.
Ideas
Having targets pre numbered by the printer with rotation
get a relationship with the area boy scout council a wealth of free labor in return give them a donation and a day of shoting and instruction.
hold chanpionships the week leading into labor day gives other clubs chances to get attendance to their matches
give a new shooter first match free
hold regional accuracy schools with a modest fee
get more help from the industry ie gift certificates or product
if there is to be a factory class make it 100 yds only
instate resoprocity between IBS and NBRSA
these are just a few ideas and just maybe could help.
I had planned to hold the IBS Nationals at Canastota but was thrown out because of an anti benchrest agenda. A group of short sighted individuals decided that the benchrest members of the club used it to much so they evicted me and hoped it would kill benchrest and it did. I am telling this to let people know that it is a hard sell to get the commitment to hold matches.

 

[Greyfox]

This is an interesting thread for a number of reasons. For one thing a lot of assumptions are being made that don’t really have a basis in fact. For another, some of the tools for positive change have been mentioned, but I don’t know that they will be implemented. Some of the current leadership in the IBS and NBRSA seems to be listening, others, probably not so much.

It might be helpful to share what’s happened at the Gallatin Gun Club in middle TN over the last few years. Gallatin was holding big benchrest matches in the late 70’s & early 80’s. It died out quite a while back and 16 of the 32 benches were removed to make room for handgun shooting. We started back up shooting IBS VFS matches in 2008. At first, we drew shooters from several states as well as local competitors. But after the first couple of years, gas prices and other concerns slowed participation to the point that we could barely pay expenses.

Last year we combined the new UBR format with IBS in matches with VFS and all four UBR classes shooting side by side. While it was a little confusing at first with 4 different targets (VFS, .224, .243, .308) being used in the same relay, we worked through it and the competitors seemed to have a good time. We figured out a way to deal with award costs after a time as well, although it was a challenge with essentially five different classes. After the 2011 season I asked all the regulars which format they wished to use.
I had only two regulars who said they would only shoot VFS. All the rest said they didn’t care what it was called or what targets they shot as long as they could shoot.

So, this season we pared it down to UBR only. It has definitely been a success. The TN state championship had 40 rifles contesting. This was more than had been there since the 80’s, including the early successful years with IBS. Most of our matches are almost equally divided between factory & custom class with a few modified and unlimited thrown in. We have had no controversy with factory class. I won’t list the criteria, but anyone interested could go to the UBR website and see what they are.

There is really no reason that new shooters must “move up” to custom. It’s all about competition and having a good time. We have successfully drawn in new shooters with factory rifles, folks who haven’t shot for years with retired benchrest rifles in 6PPC, .222, 6x47 and other somewhat archaic chamberings and current custom rifles in 30BR & other variations like the 30 Major.

Any business that wants new customers must make the product attractive. It doesn’t mean you must water it down, it just means you have to think new ways. I’m not suggesting that everyone compete in UBR matches. We are doing what we are doing and it works. IBS and NBRSA have the same opportunities as anyone else, but it does seem that some changes need to be looked at. It also seems to me that the mechanics for meetings and rule changes need to be addressed. That is one reason I don’t compete in IBS anymore.

It’s all about shooting and having fun folks. Like the saying goes “if you build it, they will come”. Times change and if benchrest competition is to remain viable, we need to change as well.

Rick Fox
Gallatin Gun Club

 

[mike in co]

thanks andy.
it is a very clear point.....one must start somewhere..and ibs members somehow just do not understand that simple thing.
add up the cost of a used rifle an entry level scope, frt rest, spotting scope, reloading gear..bullets....it aint a cheap sport travel.
( side note. one reason i picked the ar platform for my br rifles was cost...bolt and reciever $300 not $1200)
my local club has matches every month we have formal rules...six classes shot in one day.....
in addition we run two types of military bolt action br...with stock guns.....think very low cost.....i shoot cast bullets most of the time.
there has to be an entry into precision rifle shooting to get someone hooked. our club starts with 22's and milsurplus bolt action rifles.
on top of that we have only one club that does short range BR in the state(if that) and ibs chased off our 1000yd club.
tell someone they have to drive hours to go shoot a br match in this economy, and see what you get for a reaction.

mike in co

First of all.....I am a relative newcomer to the sport having shot BR for three years now. Never been a member of IBS or NBRSA. I shoot our clubs matches and have shot at Harrison (in Michigan).

I now find myself in the position of backing Mike in CO. In the past I have found some of his comments to be annoying, but ignorable. In a thread about 'How to grow the IBS" it would seem that ALL voices should be heard regardless of their shooting sanctioned matches. Your most immediate source of new members, new shooters, new participation are those fringe people with all the equipment that are already shooting at events. How can you tell them their opinion doesn't count because "You aren't one of us?" and then go out and promote Benchrest as the "friendly" shooting discipline?

 

[mike in co]

and this attidude is why you have no membership.
your clear implication is that since i do not shoot "registered" matches, i have no standing , no skill ,no right to voice my opinions.
my club runs matches every month..i have benn a member for over 10 yrs and started shooting br from almost day one.
i have no "need" to go elsewhere to shoot sanctioned matches. i get in plenty of presision shooting without either organization....
MBABR is a national class......as in several states shoot the same rules and have state championships.
i have built FOUR BR rifles since i joined here. i have listed the advancements i have made with the rifles and the limitiations.
i have hid nothing.....the ar15 and ar10 both shoot under 0.2, but to date i have not been able to do it in under 7 min.
you need to open your thinking....
work on getting people in, not out....
the treatment i get here is just one more example of why YOUR "club" has no members, and my club has a waiting list....
as an example...your wording that my local club MATCHES are "deals"..implying they are NOT matches.
pull your head out of your a**, ibs is not the only club in the world.
mike in co
ps...a lot more than 9 yrs..the 2003 on the forum is from a conversion of software, not my actual start date..probably 97 or 98

to Mike in CO -

Thanks for replying !!!!!!!

So I think I have it straight:
<> You have never shot a registered NBRSA sanctioned event, - long or short range
<> You have never shot a short range or 600yd registered IBS sanctioned match
<> You have shot 1 registered IBS-1000 match (in 2010 at CRC)
<> You were, in the past, a IBS member - so you could shoot the CRC sanctioned IBS match as a registered shooter
<> You shoot a local club, non-sanctioned "Benchrest for Score" deal
<> You shoot "military bolt action benchrest" - is this a sanctioned deal? - a club deal? - or a small group deal?
<> You are a BR-Central Forum active member of some 9-years now

Happy Shooting
Donovan Moran

 

[mwezell]

This is an interesting thread for a number of reasons. For one thing a lot of assumptions are being made that don’t really have a basis in fact. For another, some of the tools for positive change have been mentioned, but I don’t know that they will be implemented. Some of the current leadership in the IBS and NBRSA seems to be listening, others, probably not so much.

It might be helpful to share what’s happened at the Gallatin Gun Club in middle TN over the last few years. Gallatin was holding big benchrest matches in the late 70’s & early 80’s. It died out quite a while back and 16 of the 32 benches were removed to make room for handgun shooting. We started back up shooting IBS VFS matches in 2008. At first, we drew shooters from several states as well as local competitors. But after the first couple of years, gas prices and other concerns slowed participation to the point that we could barely pay expenses.

Last year we combined the new UBR format with IBS in matches with VFS and all four UBR classes shooting side by side. While it was a little confusing at first with 4 different targets (VFS, .224, .243, .308) being used in the same relay, we worked through it and the competitors seemed to have a good time. We figured out a way to deal with award costs after a time as well, although it was a challenge with essentially five different classes. After the 2011 season I asked all the regulars which format they wished to use.
I had only two regulars who said they would only shoot VFS. All the rest said they didn’t care what it was called or what targets they shot as long as they could shoot.

So, this season we pared it down to UBR only. It has definitely been a success. The TN state championship had 40 rifles contesting. This was more than had been there since the 80’s, including the early successful years with IBS. Most of our matches are almost equally divided between factory & custom class with a few modified and unlimited thrown in. We have had no controversy with factory class. I won’t list the criteria, but anyone interested could go to the UBR website and see what they are.

There is really no reason that new shooters must “move up” to custom. It’s all about competition and having a good time. We have successfully drawn in new shooters with factory rifles, folks who haven’t shot for years with retired benchrest rifles in 6PPC, .222, 6x47 and other somewhat archaic chamberings and current custom rifles in 30BR & other variations like the 30 Major.

Any business that wants new customers must make the product attractive. It doesn’t mean you must water it down, it just means you have to think new ways. I’m not suggesting that everyone compete in UBR matches. We are doing what we are doing and it works. IBS and NBRSA have the same opportunities as anyone else, but it does seem that some changes need to be looked at. It also seems to me that the mechanics for meetings and rule changes need to be addressed. That is one reason I don’t compete in IBS anymore.

It’s all about shooting and having fun folks. Like the saying goes “if you build it, they will come”. Times change and if benchrest competition is to remain viable, we need to change as well.

Rick Fox
Gallatin Gun Club

Well said, Rick.

 

[mike in co]

and hal has no idea of the truth....
his statement is proof of that.....
mike in co

To all the prospective new shooters, Mike in Co is a Keyboard BR shooter, and doesn't represent Benchrest in any way. It would be nice if we could have some ID on these forums so that newbies would know who they should listen to.