Growing the IBS

[mwezell]

Proxy proxy proxy. you know nothing about the orginization'
Match director at any club can give their proxy for voteing at the winter meeting, so heres how it works if you can't attend or should I say won't attend. Have your views pesented by another director that has your proxy. He also has your voteing rights. I can see your not a director or had any contact with IBS as to the winter meeting proceedings Mike. Its very democratic every IBS member and every IBS club counts ask Jeff..

Gerry, not sure which Mike you're addressing. I have looked at this subject pretty well, and am familiar with the process. Bottom line...to assure passage of a given proposal, one needs to have enough people PRESENT to pass it as voted on. The voted on measure may or may not be the same when voted on as proposed, therefore the proxy may not be of much help because the intent of the proposal may change before being voted up or down. Either way, this could all be done by video conferencing at the clubs or any location appointed with video conferencing. Each club could have live participation from whoever shows up at their LOCALIZED meeting this way. No doubt this would increase meeting participation opposed to traveling x number of miles to Pa. in the dead of winter.

 

[shelhamer]

You can not have factory class in group shooting.They can not be competive with a custom gun. Wate half the problem is half you peaple on here do not go to any group shoots.An if you do you shoot one shoot.Wate group shooting is the best person wins. N0t o well shoot wate you have you have you need good stuff.It Starts at the top of Ibs When I started there was always 10 or more new shooters . Not any more you do no see any one from the board of the Ibs. An if you do they are not there to promote sport there just there;

 

[GerryM]

Mike in colorado is who I was addressing . I suppose that could happen Provideing......
[ Now the pres is watching ] The idea comes as a proposal and is reviewed by the board and voted on.
The new board is quite a bit younger these days and probably open to suggestions. as you can see Jeff did a
survey last year asking for imput. By the way I drove 265 miles to the meeting in a snow storm last year to attend.

 

[mwezell]

Mike in colorado is who I was addressing . I suppose that could happen Provideing......
[ Now the pres is watching ] The idea comes as a proposal and is reviewed by the board and voted on.
The new board is quite a bit younger these days and probably open to suggestions. as you can see Jeff did a
survey last year asking for imput. By the way I drove 265 miles to the meeting in a snow storm last year to attend.

Changing this is a bylaws issue, I think, and sticking strictly by Robert's Rules is a hurdle that I'm not sure how works, but I'm sure it can be done if the right people, including those in attendance want it to.
I do commend the efforts of the board in trying to recognize areas that need to be looked at for improvement.
No disrespect, but 265 miles is a hop skip and a jump compared to what many would need to make. I'm just in Ky. and it's 700 for me...not to mention the same for others in this area. That does change things. Good, for those willing to attend the meeting that travel that or much further...that's great! I'm not going to do it for a hobby, regardless of how much I enjoy it.

 

[shelhamer]

We need hale drake.

 

[mwezell]

We need hale drake.

Hal is a great guy, but who is "we"? The latter being most pertinent to the subject. Do you mean we need Hal as an officer? I certainly think he's very capable. I'd like to see officers from the south or west too, but under the current bylaws, I don't think that's feasible.

 

[82boy]

Patrick,
IBS encourages clubs to have a factory class. The problem with Having full blown registered matches for factory rifles is one of rule enforcement. It is just too difficult to ascertain if a rifle is truly factory.

As may will say "That a factory class is too hard to regulate," I say it just because no one want to come up with the rules. Many clubs have factory class, and have no problem enforceing the rules, why would it be diferent for the IBS to do so. Heck many of the IBS rules are "up to interpetation" anyways. what works at one club may or will not work at another. A prime example is in long range and dealing with stock contact with the bag. One club states that the stock can not touch the side of the stock more than 1/2 inch. Several people, including my self have looked through the rule book, and can not find this, we have asked other to show us this, and no one yet has. The problem is someone got DQed because of it. Further on stock in short range I am willing to bet more than half the stocks do not fit the criteria in the rule book. So whats the diference of having fudes over rule interpetation, and prescribing a set of rules for factory class.

Here is my idea on factory class rules. keep them precise and simple. Make it something that doesn't take a gunsmith or mathamatition to figure out. Make a factory class rule that all guns must be a production gun, and not through a custom shop. (Takes out Coopers, 40x ETC.) Must be a factory stock belonging to that model, bedding is aloud. Must have a factory trigger with modifications of springs, and stoning aloud. Must be a factory made barrel, can be rechambered, but must be in a caliber availble from that factory. No addition weight is aloud. There it is.

 

[Hal D.]

This is coming from the perspective of primarily a Group shooter, although I shoot all three disciplines. Unfortunately, very little being accomplished here. Too much in-fighting. I'm a Benchrest shooter first and foremost. I happen to live close to mainly IBS ranges, but a couple NBRSA ranges too. I don't care what organization is sanctioning a match. If its within driving distance and its feasible for me to attend, I'll be there. One of the big reasons that match attendance is down is no reciprocity. I'm not talking about NBRSA not allowing non members to shoot. I'm talking about members of each organization holding a grudge against the other organization for a disagreement that happened DECADES ago. I attend both IBS and NBRSA matches every year, and there's one common theme. IBS shooters attend IBS matches, and NBRSA shooters attend NBRSA matches. There's a group of "independent" shooters that attend both, but we are dwarfed in size by the idealists. Many of these shooters live just as close or closer to the "other" organizations' ranges, but wont attend. GET OVER IT. Don't tell me that joining both organizations will break you either, dues to join both will cost you less than you spend in components for a two gun match. Match directors, target crews, statisticians, etc. work long hours making sure there's a match for all of us to attend. Pay them the common courtesy of showing up and supporting their range. For our game to continue into the distant future, we need to recruit new shooters. The pool we need to draw from is reading these very posts. This is the internet age, and everyone below the age of probably 65 or 70 knows where he or she can gain a lot of info in a short time. They come here and to other accuracy forums to gain information about accuracy. We need to do a better job promoting our game here first. Stop the bickering between group and score, 600 and 1000, IBS/NBRSA. Its all BENCHREST.

 

[Hal D.]

We need hale drake.

Stop it Danny

 

[LHSmith]

UBR seems to be growing. What have they discovered in ~2 short years to grow so successful that we fail to see. The "level the playing field" score targets? the factory and modified classes? If I had a choice to shoot, I would choose UBR over IBS. Shooting 30's wear me down by the end of the day, and I isn't gettin' any younger. I'm at a point where I want competition to be enjoyable.

 

[GerryM]

I agree with hal on that. If it has a trigger I like it.
Borden brought that up at ameeting when he was the president. we are all IBS.
As the grudge goes most of those guys are pretty much gone. still I believe NBRSA should show more respect to the IBS shooters. The locking out of IBS members at NBRSA match sure didn't help communications or respect between the two.

 

[mwezell]

I agree with hal on that. If it has a trigger I like it.
Bnorden brought that up at ameeting when he was the president. we are all IBS.
As the grudge goes most of those guys are pretty much gone. still I believe NBRSA should show more respect to the IBS shooters. The locking out of IBS members at NBRSA match sure didn't help communications or respect between the two.

Just my 2 cents worth, but I agree. From what little I know, and can see, there isn't much to bicker over and benchrest as a whole would benefit from, wait for it.....a merger.

 

[GerryM]

Factory class was well defined in the old rule book rifle weight . scope magnification and only stock factory rifles with factory stocks and barrels , Factory triggers { lightening allowed. glass bedding allowed. Those were the only modifications allowed in hunter class at the time. a stock factory rem or savage , , winchester etc Howa etc etc
Basicly your hunting rifle with a 30 /30 case capacity minimum.

 

[Dave Coots]

Ya, what Hal said 6 posts above.............get over it. Six or seven years ago i got my head bit off here by comparing the IBS and NBRSA split to the aggregate industry i am involved in. We used to have the National Stone Assn and the National Sand & Gravel Assn. for many years. Finally about 15 years ago they started talking about merging, and then about 10 years ago it happened. Now we have a very Strong aggregate association that represents the whole industry that basically has the same interests. Some day all the good old boys will be gone that remember the BR split, and every one will wonder why the split between the two orginazitons happened......well it was so long ago, who gives a $hit.

Talking like a geezer here, but i don't think the younger folks today grew up in the same time zone a lot of the folks shooting today did. The young ones all got a ribbon when competeting when they were younger, and all i got when i lost was my a$$ kicked. Instant success is the norm today, i think.

Go buy a used gun, a new bbl and your equipment, include your entry fees, travel expenses, ect, and compare that to any other hobby that has a motor today and let me know the costs. The main thing is for the younger people is time away from a young family and time away from work, imo.

Thanks for the job you are doing as president Jeff and your concerns Russell. .

Later
Dave

 

[mwezell]

On the subject of attracting more shooters, it seems that there are some set on attracting more retirees to the game, and some that will take any kind of growth. IMO, both are wrong and we should try and attract both. Sorry, but there is no traditional holy grail, and enhancing the rules to entice more people is a necessity to growth. BR is still BR if 10 people shooting BR rifle, of whatever caliber, are shooting next to 10 AR15's or hunting rifles. There has to be an entry level and encouragement from the "upperclassmen" for the new people to show up and shot what they have against like equipment. With different classes, it doesn't change the traditional BR shooter's game much if at all, except to encourage the new shooter's involvment.

 

[R. Rains]

OK-Co-Benchrest Shooters and wanna-be Benchrest Shooters, this post was not started as a piss'en match to begin with, it was started to hopefully help our family grow together through the IBS and the NBRSA.

Since I started shooting GROUP SHORT RANGE Benchrest in 2005 they had 26 registered matches for the year, including Dunhams Bay Winter League. In 2011 we had 13 registered matches including The Bays winter league. I am not going back to see how many shooters completed the 2 gun match from these years, but I can guarantee you that the attendance is way down. (Enough Complaining there is enough on this post)

This post was started to hopefully get some positive cheer in the crowd, instead of everyone running around with their panties in a knot!!!!!!!!

I am looking for Positive things that have worked in the past and maybe throw out the old things that have not worked. I am also looking for NEW POSITIVE IDEAS, so if you want to B**** and complain go somewhere else.

Let's start with maybe some local ranges close to our homes, go talk to the board members and see if they can fit us on their schedule to hold a small Benchrest Clinic on their turf ( Reloading, Components, Flags etc.) and if we get enough interest from these little local ranges, tell them we will have a school at one of our ranges for a fee. Get some sponsorship stuff from some of our venders and suppliers, as hand outs or door prizes for the students, and then take the funds raised to help enhance the range that the school was held at, to help build showers, improve electric, improve benchs, etc.

Lets stop the bickering and try to work together. I was always told, "excuses DON'T Pay the Bills"!!

LOOKING FOR POSITIVE IDEAS!!!!!

Russell

 

[SGJennings]

Talking like a geezer here, but i don't think the younger folks today grew up in the same time zone a lot of the folks shooting today did. The young ones all got a ribbon when competeting when they were younger, and all i got when i lost was my a$$ kicked. Instant success is the norm today, i think.

Dave, I coach high school lacrosse. It is no different today than when I grew up. Super competitive. That plus the kids are expected to do more in school. Son was admitted to the Farmers School of business at Miami University on the same day he played in the state lacrosse championship, voted first team all region and second team all state specialist (FOGOs and LSMs), My daughter is a year ahead in some classes, is taking Advanced Placement classes, has a 3.8 GPA, a 29 on the ACT before her junior year and has colleges standing in line to give her both academic and athletic money. That is what they are expected to do now...not collect blue ribbons.

 

[Hal D.]

Just my 2 cents worth, but I agree. From what little I know, and can see, there isn't much to bicker over and benchrest as a whole would benefit from, wait for it.....a merger.

I personally don't see a problem with having 2 separate organizations. I don't think a merge would be bad, but I don't see a merger in the cards anyhow. There are a large number of shooters that probably have very little knowledge of what actually took place when the split occurred. There's an animosity that has been ingrained into some of the leaders in this sport, that causes them to schedule matches against others simply to keep shooters from attending the rivals match. I'm not even talking IBS vs NBRSA. Of course we all see what happened this past weekend as well. I have no clue how the conflict occurred, but the NBRSA has a World Team match scheduled against the IBS Nationals. Had these two matches been scheduled on a non conflicting weekend, Raton probably would have had 100 plus shooters. They had 70. IBS Nats attendance was down also. A few weeks back, the same thing happened with the IBS score Nats going against one of the big NBRSA hunter matches. Nats had just 35 VFS shooters. Now I'm not suggesting that these two examples had any kind of intentional scheduling conflicts. As far as I know, they were just a scheduling blunder. I'm just saying that we need more and better communication between the organizations, and even within the separate organizations.

 

[mike in co]

SOME TIMES YOU NARROW MINDED NOR EASTERNS are just humorus beyond belief.
tell me what chance does a single item from outside have of getting passed ?? zero nada zip....
i was not born yesterday.......
how about this...the current system does not work..it supports a small group of clubs from the noreast...it is not international..it cannot even support the views of the entire us of a.
mike in co

Proxy proxy proxy. you know nothing about the orginization'
Match director at any club can give their proxy for voteing at the winter meeting, so heres how it works if you can't attend or should I say won't attend. Have your views pesented by another director that has your proxy. He also has your voteing rights. I can see your not a director or had any contact with IBS as to the winter meeting proceedings Mike. Its very democratic every IBS member and every IBS club counts ask Jeff..

 

[Dave Coots]

FYI-70@Raton