Bouncing off the "parallel Node", Calfee

Fair enough.

Lynn said:
Steve
You can go to Wikipedia and look-up black powder and smokeless powder combustion properties.It lists black powder as hygroscopic and 1.10% water as a result of the combustion process.
It also says smokeless powder doesn't exhibit this but didn't list the combustion residue.
A quick search may answer your questions.
Lynn
Click to expand...


Lynn:
Is it your assertion that any water found in the bore of a centerfire rifle comes only from the combustion process?

Steve.
 
Douglas

Not quite. A shooter who uses this tactic has a very good read on the conditions, and will be holding accordingly every 30 seconds.
Lester Bruno is such a shooter. He puts as many as 10 or more sighter shots on the sighter target EVERY GROUP. He then remembers what condition put what shot where, and uses it accordingly on the record.
In Unlimited Shooting, where you have to put 10 shots on the record, think how different the tune characteristics are from the 1st shot to the 10th. This is why it is so difficult to find an Unlimited barrel that is competitive. I have a few that will nail 5 shot "zeros" on a regular basis, but by the time you get 10 down there, it's going to be a .250.
A lot of this is lost on people who do not actually do this. We learn a lot in Competition that all of these "theorist" never realize, or can't see, because they do not understand the concept.
That is why experienced shooters get a good laugh out of some of the things that are discussed on this Forum. Just think how stupid much of what is being discussed in this very thread is to the top ten at the Super Shoot........jackie
 
Douglas said:
I'm dumb as ass too and I need clear direction or I can't do nuthin'. This is all starting to make sense to me now, the guy who fired a shot every thirty seconds regardless of record or condition; every thirty seconds pull the trigger, same amount of condensation every time, bullet should go in the same place everything else being equal.

I wonder if the same phenomenon exists in rimfire (or any for that matter) too? and to what degree? I'm going to ask on the rimfire board.

Thanks, Douglas
Click to expand...

Douglas:

You are giving credence to the notion that there is some type of water equilibrium in the bore that will effect your grouping, but there is not. I probably should not have mentioned adsorption because it is a difficult concept to grasp, but I can assure you has nothing to do with changing the velocity of your shots. In fact, you would need to heat your barrel to constant temperature of around a 100 degrees over the boiling point of water (actually 296.6 degrees) before it becomes a factor. I GUARANTEE IF YOU HEAT YOUR BARREL THIS HOT, YOUR GUN WILL NOT GROUP. But you already knew that.

If you lube a barrel, velocity drops. All you need is a chronograph and some gun oil to prove this to yourself. Heat causes the velocity to increase. Water does not condense on a hot surface.

SO, if you ignore the voodoo chemistry, don't cook any rounds and MOST IMPORTANTLY, read your wind flags you'll be miles ahead in the accuracy game.
 
Lynn said:
Mike if you've ever shot a rifle with a suppressor on it one of the biggest problems associated with the suppressor is rusting from condensation after firing.
I don't know if this is even remotely close to what Bill is talking about but it does happen.
Lynn
Click to expand...

Lynn:
I've shot a suppressed AUG, but not enough to associate any problems with it. Of course, assuming there is a rust problem, it could be related to any number of factors: the ammo (a lot of the cheap military surplus stuff that folks shoot in MG's is corrosive), it could be a result of the inability to protect the sometimes complex inner workings from atmospheric conditions (if you've ever lived by the beach, you know that even stainless can rust if poorly protected), or some combination of factors (a particular design could act as a heat sink and cause water vapor to condense in the workings -- like the water that you see dripping from the tail pipe of a car until the exhaust system gets hot in the AM).

I don't see a connection to the present thread though.
 
Friend Dennis

Friend Dennis:

Man, this making a living is getting old....but, today is stacked up again so I can't spend but a second......

Dennis, something for you to ponder till I can get more time.....

We in rimfire have exactly the same problem with letting a rifle sit, then firing a round, and having a flipper........why is this important.....?

We, in rimfire, sometimes use barrels exactly the same size as you centerfire folks....say on the 40-X Remington......our chamber is small in diameter, so one of our barrels has much more material around the chamber than a centerfire....which means the barrel has more ability to dissipate heat than a centerfire.......

Our little cartridges don't have the ability to create enough heat for a round to be "cooked off"......certainly not in 4 or 5 rounds.....so we can't create enough heat plus we have barrels that are harder to heat up to start with..

But my friend, we have exactly the same problem as you centerfire folks because of the water in the bore.......

No my friend, a "cooked" round ain't the problem, and as soon as I have time, I'll make available to you two tests........that show exactly what I'm talking about.....

Dennis, I know it's tough to have believed something all your life, then find out you were wrong.....this is one of those cases.....

Now, I've got to try to make a living..

To D.......just passed it....

Your friend, Bill Calfee
 
Mike,
I have no idea if there is water in a barrel after a shot. I have not looked for it, ever. I do seem to remember reading something Bill wrote about actually patching a barrel, that had been shot and then set, and coming up with a moist patch. Like I said, I have never tried this.
Your exhaust tailpipe example did provoke some thought. If I remember correctly, the water from a tail pipe, that we see before things are warmed up, is a byproduct of combustion that condenses (This is where it gets sketchy. Give me a little help here.) because the temperature down the tail pipe lowers the exhaust temperature to a point below where the water vapor can remain a gas. In other words the delta T is relative to the temperature of that inside of the exhaust manifold, not ambient, and the atmosphere inside of the tailpipe is saturated at that temperature, so when it hits a RELATIVELY colder surface further down the pipe, the exhaust is cooled to a point below where the water in it can be a gas (water vapor). This is just first cup of coffee conjecture, so feel free to comment.
Boyd
 
Actually the changing amount of water vapor makes some sense. The bullet has to push all of the gasses in front of it out of the way before it exits. Water vapor is much less dense than "normal" air, so the more water vapor that is in the bore, the less mass of "air" that the bullet has to push out ahead of it, the higher the velocity can be. The warmer the barrel, and the gas inside the bore - the more water vapor it can hold. So with a warm barrel full of warm gasses, even moisture from the outside environment (if it is of a higher relative humidity) will migrate to the inside of the bore. And since water vapor loses volume quickly as it cools, outside air can be sucked back into the barrel over time.

Makes you wonder if purging the barrel gas between shots would help. Say a small puff with some dry Nitrogen or even just regular compressed air. Hmmmmm. Seems like I've heard tell of such a practice.
 
Ahhhhh

Wilbur has it absolutely right. You guys are going to drive yourselves crazy with worry data.

If any of this nonsense had an effect on actual grouping, a "picker" would never win a match. Truth be told, the best matches I've ever shot were when I could control my urge to "run em" and picked through a group. Two foulers. A record shot. Wait a couple of minutes for the condition to return. Shoot. Wait another minute or two. Shoot two more. Wait. Finish. How many folks have repeated this scenario over and over and over?

Watch the flags. Shoot when appropriate. Hold when necessary. Win Benchrest matches.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Vibe said:
Makes you wonder if purging the barrel gas between shots would help. Say a small puff with some dry Nitrogen or even just regular compressed air. Hmmmmm. Seems like I've heard tell of such a practice.
Click to expand...

The black powder shooters blow through their barrels. The theory is the moisture from their breath keeps the powder fouling from hardening.
 
First, please don't anyone get the idea that I have a view on this thread one way or the other (past the entertainment/humor value which is great).

I also am out of time and must go load for a match. I think I'll sit here and type for half an hour before telling you all 1/10th of what I want to say and then take another 1/2 hr to tell you I have to go now! hehe.

For what this test is worth...

Take your favorite rifle (SS Barrel) and of course try to avoid the stock with the heat. Take a torch and put it to that barrel for a few seconds. You don't need to heat it appreciably.

You will see water condensation there surrounding the flame.

Next,

(no test here). Start your car and watch the exhaust pipe. You will see water condensation there as well. Sometimes water pours out of the exhaust. (this one caused by pressure/compression)

Does any of this happen inside a barrel? I have no idea.

Next. By reading another thread on this board, I am begining to believe that Mike Marcelli has some vested interest in making unsuspecting shooters believe that hard work, perseverance, practice and good equipment has something to do with shooting more competitively.

Seriously Mike??? I've been reading a long time here and you can't possibly expect me to believe that...

Shewwwwwww... Centerfire shooters....

JK Mike, this is quite fun.
:D
 
Friend Dennis

Friend Dennis:

Man, what a pretty Sunday morning here in Borden.......

Dennis, I'm one of them guys that just has to know the why's of why things work like the do.......

When I first started gun work, centerfire benchrest, I quickly found out about the problem of a barrel sitting for a minute or two, after being fired, then throwing a flipper.......so I asked my shooting buddies if they knew why....they did, they advised the problem was caused by the round cooking off in the chamber.........heck, everybody knew that.....

Friend Dennis, that wasn't good enough, I had to know for sure what the problem was, so, it took about five minutes for me to come up with a very simple test to determine if a "cooked off" round was the problem....

I ran my simple test several times and low-and-behold, a cooked round had absolutely nothing to do with this problem....

Well, what did cause the problem of a flipper after a rifle had been fired, then allowed to sit for a minute or two, then fired again.....???

Dennis, it wasn't near as easy to determine the actual cause, as it was to determine that a cooked round had absolutely nothing to do with it....

I finally devised a test that determined exactly what the cause for the flippers was.......very simple, it's caused by water in the bore.....

Friend Dennis, I started this thread to discuss how we can determine if we have a stopped muzzle.......that was over 6,000 views ago.....and we ain't got to discuss it yet........

So my friend, I've got to move forward, I don't have a lot of time to play on this machine right now....it's shooting season...

Dennis, back a few pages I said to you I'd furnish you with the two tests so you can see exactly what happens when a rifle barrel has been fired, then let set for a minute or two, then re-fired.....and I'm going to.....

If you'll send me a self addressed, stamped envelope, I'll type up, and copy, the tests, and return them to you......they are very simple, but my friend, they will be eye opening to say the least....

Bill Calfee
546 W. Main St.
Borden, IN 47106
USA

I've got to run for now, but, when I have a little more time, we'll move forward with, how to determine when we have a stopped muzzle....

Your friend, Bill Calfee
 
Lynn said:
Vibe
Are you saying that Bill Calfee might be right on the water in the bore?
Lynn
Click to expand...
Yeah, I suppose I am. If you think about it, it makes sense. Combustion byproducts almost always contain H2O in the form of water vapor. At the temperatures under discussion this means steam. ANY material that this steam comes in contact with that is less than 212°F will cause some of it to "cool" below it's vaporization temperature (boiling point at sea level) and it will change to a liquid state. Dirt, powder residue, and such will not only increase the available surface area for contact, but much of it may be hygroscopic as well and draw the moisture out even below the dew point. As to whether or not it lubricates or impedes the bullet - it really doesn't matter - it changes the environment from the last shot and thus changes the parameters and the bullet flight variables. Since it is seen to cause higher MVs, my take is that it does not lubricate (since that usually results in lower pressures and lower MVs).
 
Ok, I'll save a stamp.

To test whether or not it's the round cooking in the action........REMOVE THE LOADED ROUND!!! This ain't rocket science and there's no need for double-blind testing. Just remove the round, close the bolt, wait your minute or two and shoot another one.


HeLLOOOO!!!


al
 
alinwa said:
Ok, I'll save a stamp.

To test whether or not it's the round cooking in the action........REMOVE THE LOADED ROUND!!! This ain't rocket science and there's no need for double-blind testing. Just remove the round, close the bolt, wait your minute or two and shoot another one.


HeLLOOOO!!!


al
Click to expand...

I hung around hoping Bill would answer the questions I actually asked but I really did not expect anything more than he gave so I am not disappointed... not particularly thrilled either... :rolleyes:
 
Freinds Vibe and alinwa:

My friends:

I have waded through 6,000 views..........

Oh, friend Dennis: You're awesome! I'm sorry you had to wait so long to find out the truth.........now, you can join the rest of the awesome centerfire benchrest folks.......you'll understand all this in a year or two.....or maybe a little longer.....but, that's par for short range, centerfire benchrest accuracy advancement....(I was one of of you awesome folks for several years, I know how slow accuracy advances for you folks)

Friends Vibe and alinwa:

I don't like you two guys....do you think you have more knowledge than all the awesome, short range, centerfire folks?

You guys don't know nothing! But, you really do.....you have been my biggest distractors, but, I have a feeling you both understand the importance of this issue, and, both of you have put your ego's aside........

Vibe and alinwa, the world just changed..........

The "cooked round" will never be spoken of again, after this thread....and it shouldn't, cause it is not the cause of the problem.......water in the bore is the cause.

Friend Dennis; I will be glad to send you the two tests, or, you can keep your head in the sand.........like the rest of the awesome short range centerfire shooters on this fine forum of Wilbur's.......

Now, when I have time, I'm going to discuss how we tell if we have a stopped muzzle......man!

My point blank centerfire benchresters: I love you guys....I was one of you...

The world has changed.......The cooked round, nonsense, is a thing of the past, forever.....

Your friend Bill Calfee
 
Al,

That is what most of us do. Unless we get all excited and forget, we just take the hot round out, and place a new one in.
The shots go into the group. Maybe all of that "water" evaporates in that second it takes to get that round in, and out, when we open that bolt.......jackie
 
Kathy said:
Friend Dennis; I will be glad to send you the two tests.....

Your friend Bill Calfee
Click to expand...

Bill, I can't buy US stamps in Canada so I can't send you an addressed stamped envelope...

... but you can send me a private message on this board very easily, ... simply click on my name, a pop up menu will appear, click on "Send a private message to Dennis Sorensen ".

Still no interest in answering the questions I asked?

Dennis
 
jackie schmidt said:
That is what most of us do. Unless we get all excited and forget, we just take the hot round out, and place a new one in.
The shots go into the group. Maybe all of that "water" evaporates in that second it takes to get that round in, and out, when we open that bolt.......jackie
Click to expand...

I am only a novice at shooting competition and shoot long range, but what Jackie has posted has certainly been my experience. Since at long range it is either put the shot on record or remove the ctg. and replace it with a cool one what happens is even more important.

James
 
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