Bouncing off the "parallel Node", Calfee

My friends

My friends:

I have a minute and thought I add a little more about determining the stopped muzzle, but, it looks like we need to clear up this " chamber cooking" thing..

The heat from the chamber being transfereed to the powder charge has absolutely no connection with a rifle throwing a shot after being fired, then sitting for awhile before being fired again.......I'm sorry, it just doesn't.

Water in the bore is the problem......my gosh, I learned that over 30 years ago when I was deep into my centerfire work....

Surly folks don't still think that "cooking" a round in a warm chamber is a problem......man, there's a very simple test, that I devised 30 years ago to prove what the cause really is......surly I ain't the only person to figure out this simple test?

More when I have time.....

Your friend, Bill Calfee
 
Come on Bill... enough of the "More when I have time....." you end every brief thread with that after not answering anything ...:confused:

My simply test of a round "cooking" in the chamber shows an increase in velocity and pressure over the rest of the loads not cooked... I make the assumption that will also affect accuracy...
 
Friend Dennis:

Friend Dennis:

This is the centerfire bench forum.....I think.....

I'm confused....is there anyone in the short range benchrest world, that thinks "cooking a round" hurts accuracy, but you my friend........?

Surly not...........

Dennis, I know you are an awesome guy..........but, a "cooked round" don't do nothing to hurt accuracy.....

Water in the bore, hurts accuracy.....

Dennis, when I dcecided to write about the stopped muzzle, I figured that the entire, point blank, centerfire benchrest community, already understood what happend when a barrel, that has been shot, has a round shot through it..

You are pulling my leg......you have to be....no one, any longer, believes a cooked round causes a flipper.......no one......?

Water in the bore, causes a flipper......

Your friend, Bill Calfee
 
I said, "My simply test of a round "cooking" in the chamber shows an increase in velocity and pressure over the rest of the loads not cooked... I make the assumption that will also affect accuracy..."

You said, "Dennis, I know you are an awesome guy..........but, a "cooked round" don't do nothing to hurt accuracy....."

For starters, you don't know me Bill... but your cooked round theory is interesting...

So... you are saying that if I fire a number of shots where the velocity and the pressure are very constant, and I fire one shot where the velocity is higher and the pressure causes the bolt to stick on opening, that last shot will be "in" the group...? It would not deviate out of the group because of the pressure and velocity difference?
 
Friend Dennis

Friend Dennis:

I qoute from you my friend:

"For starters, you don't know me Bill... but your cooked round theory is interesting"

Dennis, do you want to promote accuracy? I do....so, let's deal with your statement............

Friend Jackie Schmidt: I love you man, but, I don't post on your threads....how about treating me the same way......fair enough?

Jackie, I have accuracy to advance.......

Friend Dennis: before I proceed, do you really want to know what happens when one shoots a few rounds, then lets the gun set for a few minutes, then fires another round?

Your friend Bill Calfee
 
Incredible.

Kathy said:
Friend Jackie Schmidt: I love you man, but, I don't post on your threads....how about treating me the same way......fair enough?

Jackie, I have accuracy to advance.......
Click to expand...

Absolutely Incredible, your statements go farther over the top every day.
 
Jetmugg be careful Mr. Harris deleted us on the rimfire forum today and may do it again here.


Bobby
 
Jetmugg said:
Absolutely Incredible, your statements go farther over the top every day.
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On 05-21-08 Bill asked Jackie to compare SS memories and today he asked Jackie to not post on his threads, more great entertainment on a weekday night. I got my bag of popcorn and some kool-aid. Ron Tilley
 
You know what ??

I think since a few stirrers ( :) ) have left Bill alone over the last week his threads are actually more humorous, he does a great job all by himself, the more Bill posts the sillier he seems and the more fun it is to read.

Friend Kathy/Bill, sorry man, but you knows I loves ya deep down where it really matters, from the heart and all ......... but you got to start actually typing out what you want to talk about rather the get the introductary stuff out of the way and then run out of time for the nuts and bolts of your post !!

How about just wait until you have time to say what you want to say and then just say it !! If you have accuracy to advance all on your lonesome you are going to take a long time to do it using this method !

Rome wasn't built in a day, either us centrefire guys are a lot dumber than rimfire shooters or a lot smarter ...... I haven't figured out which yet, but if you stick with it maybe we will get the message in time.

Lovin ya man, you know it !!

Bryce
 
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Lynn said:
Ron
I think what Bill is saying is that yes you will see a velocity increase from the round sitting in the hot chamber but it ALL isn't due to the chemical reaction occuring faster from the heat.
Put jettmug on your ignore list.
Lynn
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Lynn, no offense to you, but I don't think we are looking at the same thing. Ron Tilley
 
Bill

I wasn't Addressing you, I was addressing my buddy Dennis from the North Country.
As for not posting on your thread?? This is an open Forum. Ideas and information flow freely here. If I say something that is absurd and stupid, I expect to be called out on it. If you say something absurd and stupid, you can expect to be called on it as well.
In fact, on this Forum, if anyone says things that are absurd and stupid, they will be called out by any number of knowlegable shooters.
If Wilbur tells shooters to cease in questioning absurd and stupid statements, then I suppose those shooters would either have to abide by his decision, or leave the Forum
That is just the way it is........jackie
 
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Dennis

The reason Bill must stick with the theory that having a round cook in a chamber has no affect on it's going into the group is simple. It contradicts his "stopped muzzle" theory, which, as best I can decipher, means that regardless of the changes in tuning conditions, (as measured by presure and velocity differences), the Rifle will still agg at a competitive level if indeed the muzzle is "stopped", regardless if that round was 150 fps faster.
As a note, I would venture a guess that if you polled 100 top shooters, 100 would say that letting a round cook in a chamber WILL likely cause a flyer.......jackie
 
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Lynn

Many of us have tested this for ourselves. About two years ago, I spent the better part of a day, (a good hot one), shooting groups over my 35P Chronograph to see for myself how letting a barrel sit for minutes between rounds, and letting rounds sit too long in the chamber affected the Rifles agging capability.
Granted, I was using my Rail Gun, but I usually use it so I can keep as much of "me" out of the results as possible.
I came away with the conclusion that what I had been told was true. Do not let rounds "cook" in a hot chamber, do not let rounds sit in the hot sun, and if you have to wait on a condition for more than 40 to 50 seconds, with a chambered round, dump the round on the sighter and start over.
The strange phenomina is that sometimes the cooked rounds would go in, sometimes not. The percentage of 'cooked" rounds not going into the group was about 80 percent greater than any others, especially when shooting 10 shot groups.
At The Bluebonnet this year, I made the mistake Sunday afternoon of letting a round sit in the Rifle for a long time. I had three shots in the group, and I was shooting a specific condition, in other words, no hold. For some reason, I went "stupid", and forgot about how long I had let that round cook. In my excitement of seeing the condition coming back, I let it go, and it went high and against the condition, a good bullet holes worth. The fifth shot, which I waited again on again but without letting the round sit in the chamber, went into the originol first three.
I know that is strictly anecdotal, but that very same thing has happenned to shooters many times.
Most experience Benchrest Shooters will not let a round sit in a hot chamber, or wait too long between shots without putting a round on the sighter to keep the barrels tuning characteristics consitant.
Now, the big question is what is really going on, especially the thing about not waiting too long between shots, whether there is a round chambered or not. For all I know, it might be moisture, as Bill indicates, that proves to be the culprit.
This argument is alot like the humidity thing with N133. Many notables scream at us that powder is not affected by humidity. For all we know, it might not be. But that does not change the fact that when the bottom falls out of the humidity, N133 starts acting goofy, and if you are going to keep the Rifle agging at a competitive level, you better know what to do.......jackie
 
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Friend Dennis

Friend Dennis:

I turned on my machine this morning to check some rimfire match results....I've got 50 things I must do today.....but.....I will get back here just as soon as I have a little time and explain the simple test that shows that a "cooked round" ain't what causes a flipper after the gun has set for a minute or two...........

I know it will probably be hard for old time centerfire benchresters to believe, but, water in the bore causes the problem......

I know it's pretty tough for folks to have believed something all their life, then find out they were wrong....but..sometimes this happens....

Dennis, this is one of those times...........I guess now is as good a time as any to straighten out this old misunderstanding.......

More when I get some time...your friend, Bill Calfee
 
Kathy said:
Friend Dennis:

I turned on my machine this morning to check some rimfire match results....I've got 50 things I must do today.....but.....I will get back here just as soon as I have a little time and explain the simple test that shows that a "cooked round" ain't what causes a flipper after the gun has set for a minute or two...........

I know it will probably be hard for old time centerfire benchresters to believe, but, water in the bore causes the problem......

I know it's pretty tough for folks to have believed something all their life, then find out they were wrong....but..sometimes this happens....

Dennis, this is one of those times...........I guess now is as good a time as any to straighten out this old misunderstanding.......

More when I get some time...your friend, Bill Calfee
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Bill,

I don't think anyone is saying water in the bore is not a problem....

...but would not the big difference in pressure and velocity also contribute to a flyer?

Does your test include firing a "cooked" round through a just fired barrel that has no water in the bore? ... and have that "cooked" round that has higher velocity and pressure that will cause stiff bolt lift go "in" the group of "uncooked" loads? Can you rule out the big velocity and pressure difference as any cause of inaccuracy?

3 more simple questions easy to answer...

How many seconds does it take for water in the bore to build up with a closed bolt? ... with an open bolt? How hot does the barrel need to be to have this happen?
 
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