Hi All , Living so far away from the hub of 1000yd benchrest competition here n Australia it has become standard for me to listen to the guys with the runs on the board in terms of group/score and aggs shooting in the US.. Charles Bailey was the 1st one that comes to mind then Dave Tooley, Naturally Joel P and Charles E have been helpfull mentors and i thank them quite often .. In recent times 4mesh (phil) is also a go to guy as his last year of full competition showed a group 6match of 5.57ins ,now i don't know how many listening to these pages know how hard that it is to do .. I know that as much as i try i have not been able to get there ,so i listen to people like Matt K when he says *You Need Good Bullets and you need to check em * because for his last 3 yearly Williamsport results in 6 match group netted 2008= 5.58ins / 2009= 5.64ins ans so far this year it 5.99ins with an average score of 98.5 .. I'm not tryin to take sides here because i'm willing to listen to all and then take out of it what helps to improve the actual target face ..JR..Jeff Rogers
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mike in co
Guest
ajr...i did not say he could not shoot...but the other guy has national chamionships, not just club wins. the other guy has shot in high power where wind reading is REQUIRED to win...and he has won.
i never said run and gun wont work...what i said is that i will use flags..... .
oh and the other guy is till competing, not just typing.
he may know lots and shoot well,, and i will listen to some of his reccomendations..just not about wind.
lynn,
i have played on the sacto american rivers.......
i understand the diff...it seems atleast one person does not.
mike in co
i never said run and gun wont work...what i said is that i will use flags..... .
oh and the other guy is till competing, not just typing.
he may know lots and shoot well,, and i will listen to some of his reccomendations..just not about wind.
lynn,
i have played on the sacto american rivers.......
i understand the diff...it seems atleast one person does not.
mike in co
Jeff
If you want small group aggs you need to shoot at a wind free club.If you don't think thats true good luck with your shooting.
Lynn aka Waterboy
P.S. Nobody here is supposed to take sides we are supposed to debate the merits posted.Unfortunatley one of the jealous non winners took acception and decided to start calliing a Multi Time National Champion Shooter a BS'er
P.S.S.
Here is the answer to the question asked by Charles E he has yet to respond because Jim is in total agreement with Jerry Tierney.
Reading the Wind in 1000 BR -- yes you can!
Phil:
I was a 1000 yard competitor at Hawks Ridge before I went to LR prone. In 2004, the only season in which I shot all 10 matches, I was lucky enough to win the 10 match HG Score Agg. Not once did I read the wind nor did I know of any 1K BR competitors that could do it. When I started LR prone, I quickly found that my mentor could read the wind like foot notes in a book -- John Whidden.
Here is a nutshell of what John does and how you can apply it to 1000 yd BR. Before John gets in the prone, he finds a direction indicator and a velocity indicator -- flags, tree limbs/leaves, etc. For the most part, these indicators are on the upwind side of his position so that the "information" is not old data.
When John gets in the prone, he sets up with his Kowa spotting scope to his support arm side. He is setup where he is looking through the lens with his left eye and his irons with his right eye -- without moving his head. John sets the focus of his spotting scope on the mirage and not the target. He can read the spotting discs on the target but his focus is on the mirage. He then makes sure the velocity indicator he picks agrees with the mirage indicator. If not, he picks another velocity indicator.
This is VERY important: When John goes to the line, he has a dead center no wind zero. When he shoots his first sighter in the dominate condition -- say and 8 at 9:00 -- he knows that the flag/mirage combo read says that is worth 2 minutes. John then shoots sighters in the other non dominate conditions that can kill you -- like letoffs and switches. Of course, he then knows what those conditions are worth. After going to school on the conditions, he gets his sighters into the center ON THE CONDITION HE WANTS TO SHOOT. He starts his record rounds in that condition. If it changes, he waits or makes adjustments -- because he has already shot that condition with his sighters and maintains a mental picture in his head of his sighters and the conditions associated with each sighter. YOU MUST KNOW HOW MUCH WIND YOU HAVE ON THE GUN AT ALL TIMES.
In 1000 yard BR, determine the dominate condition at the bench you will be shooting from. See how long it lasts. Does it last long enough for a quck run or does it switch? Does the minimum condition last longer? Of course, try to determine how long it takes for the dominate condition to switch (a killer) if the wind is switching that day. Once you determine the condition you want to shoot with your sighters, get a zero on the birds. Go to your target and SHOOT THAT CONDITION QUICKLY.
If you do this, it is unlikely that you will ever be off paper -- even on a relay where everyone is gone from therelay and the 10 match agg. Additionally, this wind reading will really help on your scores. As for group, it will help, but that is much more difficult. It takes a lot of time to learn this skill, but is is worth the effort. The F-Class shooters can really benefit because they have a precision platform and feedback from the targets as well.
I hope this helps a little.
Jim Hardy
United States LR Development Team
An old has use to be 600 and 1000 yd NRA Sr. record holder
An old never been anything but a lucky 1K BR competitor
Last edited by JCX; 09-03-2010 at 07:51 PM.
If you want small group aggs you need to shoot at a wind free club.If you don't think thats true good luck with your shooting.
Lynn aka Waterboy
P.S. Nobody here is supposed to take sides we are supposed to debate the merits posted.Unfortunatley one of the jealous non winners took acception and decided to start calliing a Multi Time National Champion Shooter a BS'er
P.S.S.
Here is the answer to the question asked by Charles E he has yet to respond because Jim is in total agreement with Jerry Tierney.
Reading the Wind in 1000 BR -- yes you can!
Phil:
I was a 1000 yard competitor at Hawks Ridge before I went to LR prone. In 2004, the only season in which I shot all 10 matches, I was lucky enough to win the 10 match HG Score Agg. Not once did I read the wind nor did I know of any 1K BR competitors that could do it. When I started LR prone, I quickly found that my mentor could read the wind like foot notes in a book -- John Whidden.
Here is a nutshell of what John does and how you can apply it to 1000 yd BR. Before John gets in the prone, he finds a direction indicator and a velocity indicator -- flags, tree limbs/leaves, etc. For the most part, these indicators are on the upwind side of his position so that the "information" is not old data.
When John gets in the prone, he sets up with his Kowa spotting scope to his support arm side. He is setup where he is looking through the lens with his left eye and his irons with his right eye -- without moving his head. John sets the focus of his spotting scope on the mirage and not the target. He can read the spotting discs on the target but his focus is on the mirage. He then makes sure the velocity indicator he picks agrees with the mirage indicator. If not, he picks another velocity indicator.
This is VERY important: When John goes to the line, he has a dead center no wind zero. When he shoots his first sighter in the dominate condition -- say and 8 at 9:00 -- he knows that the flag/mirage combo read says that is worth 2 minutes. John then shoots sighters in the other non dominate conditions that can kill you -- like letoffs and switches. Of course, he then knows what those conditions are worth. After going to school on the conditions, he gets his sighters into the center ON THE CONDITION HE WANTS TO SHOOT. He starts his record rounds in that condition. If it changes, he waits or makes adjustments -- because he has already shot that condition with his sighters and maintains a mental picture in his head of his sighters and the conditions associated with each sighter. YOU MUST KNOW HOW MUCH WIND YOU HAVE ON THE GUN AT ALL TIMES.
In 1000 yard BR, determine the dominate condition at the bench you will be shooting from. See how long it lasts. Does it last long enough for a quck run or does it switch? Does the minimum condition last longer? Of course, try to determine how long it takes for the dominate condition to switch (a killer) if the wind is switching that day. Once you determine the condition you want to shoot with your sighters, get a zero on the birds. Go to your target and SHOOT THAT CONDITION QUICKLY.
If you do this, it is unlikely that you will ever be off paper -- even on a relay where everyone is gone from therelay and the 10 match agg. Additionally, this wind reading will really help on your scores. As for group, it will help, but that is much more difficult. It takes a lot of time to learn this skill, but is is worth the effort. The F-Class shooters can really benefit because they have a precision platform and feedback from the targets as well.
I hope this helps a little.
Jim Hardy
United States LR Development Team
An old has use to be 600 and 1000 yd NRA Sr. record holder
An old never been anything but a lucky 1K BR competitor
Last edited by JCX; 09-03-2010 at 07:51 PM.
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dk hunt 14
Guest
Nationals
What is the difference between a six target agg at Nationals with 40 shooters or a six target agg. at a club with 100 shooters? Lynn we get a lot more wind then you think. It swirls, switches and does all kind of stuff. The terrain is really crooked all the way to the targets. Deep rolling valleys can make for a lot of vertical or completely across the target.Just ask some of the people that come to the World Open. Matt
What is the difference between a six target agg at Nationals with 40 shooters or a six target agg. at a club with 100 shooters? Lynn we get a lot more wind then you think. It swirls, switches and does all kind of stuff. The terrain is really crooked all the way to the targets. Deep rolling valleys can make for a lot of vertical or completely across the target.Just ask some of the people that come to the World Open. Matt
Matt
At Sacramento a typical club match is a 3 tgt agg not 1 tgt.When you see 6 match aggs like Jeff posted about you are comparing 60 heavygun shots to 180 heavygun shots out here.That is like comparing apples to watermelons.
When you are asking how many 3 inch groups have you shot the wind chamge at 10 degrees total for 24 hours tells me there is a difference over a range with 200 degrees average wind shift.
The difference between the world open and Sacramento is the 3rd day we shoot and the weather.It is easier to shoot one good group than it is to shoot 27 good groups so proportionately it is easier to shoot 4 targets in 2 days than it is to shoot 6 targets in 3 days.This does not mean you don't get bad weather it means we get switchier winds for a larger percentage of our targets.
Anybody good with numbers can point this out but unfortunately the thread turned into a pissing match when 4Mesh for some unknown reason decided it was his day to insult a 3 time national champion benchrest shooter off of the forum.This website truly doesn't need that as some of us are trying to help the newer guys get competitive in the hopes of bringoing in new faces.You can disagree with the Champ and believe me I do from time to time but I don't do it on the WWW.On venues like this it is always better in my opinion to ask why somebody believes what they believe and try it out for yourself.If it works impleme nt it if it doesn't ignore them.
You can try it at Williamsport just for fun and see if that is correct.Simply add a 3rd day and see if your aggs drop.
If you look at Upper Nisqually or Eatonville in Washington state there results don't look like they shoot very well.If you drive up there your results look like there results.By the same token when Billy Copelin and Gary Noble drive down here they shoot better than they do at there own home range.The shoot at the side of Mt Ranier which is 14.411 feet tall and the weather is worse yet.
We tried for years to get our club to shoot the 1000 yard Nationals in October rather than September so the groups would shrink.We talked to the club and got together with Don Nielson and Lou Murdica and the switch was made.Our Nationals agg's have dropped and ourt scores have gone up.You no longer have to be a wind reader in order to win or place well so the more accurate rifles are moving up.
Charles E wanted to know eaerlier in this thread what a guy like Jim Hardy would say and Jim posted in the other
thread just as I quoted him above that yes you can read the wind at 1000 yards and he gave a good example of just how it is done.Charles E responded to Danny Brooks twice since then and has ignored Jim because he didn't agree with Jim pointing out he was dead wrong.Likewise 4Mesh dismissed his findings but he never called his thoughts BS like he did our 3 time National Champion.My rhetorical question is why not?
Drum roll please----Here is the National Weather Services History of the winds at Williamsport during the World Open.
Wind:
The Average Wind is 4 mph with a historical range of 0 mph to 9 mph
There is a 0% chance of a Windy Day (average wind over 10 mph / 15km/h).
(0 days out of 32 in historical record)
Here is why 4Mesh doesn't believe you can read the wind.You didn't have any wind to read.
Waterboy aka Lynn
P.S. When new guys come out to watch and ask about 1000 yard shooting the thing heard most often is "I was on the internet and my gun won't shoot 3 inches at 1000 yards so I don't come to the matches" If they stay to the finish I try and show them the winning groups and point out that some of the best eastcoast shooters in the history of the sport have come out here and have won but not one of them has set a small group record here in heavygun.If anybody east of the Mississippi comes out here this year and shoots a 3 inch group in heavygun I will give them $500 cash
At Sacramento a typical club match is a 3 tgt agg not 1 tgt.When you see 6 match aggs like Jeff posted about you are comparing 60 heavygun shots to 180 heavygun shots out here.That is like comparing apples to watermelons.
When you are asking how many 3 inch groups have you shot the wind chamge at 10 degrees total for 24 hours tells me there is a difference over a range with 200 degrees average wind shift.
The difference between the world open and Sacramento is the 3rd day we shoot and the weather.It is easier to shoot one good group than it is to shoot 27 good groups so proportionately it is easier to shoot 4 targets in 2 days than it is to shoot 6 targets in 3 days.This does not mean you don't get bad weather it means we get switchier winds for a larger percentage of our targets.
Anybody good with numbers can point this out but unfortunately the thread turned into a pissing match when 4Mesh for some unknown reason decided it was his day to insult a 3 time national champion benchrest shooter off of the forum.This website truly doesn't need that as some of us are trying to help the newer guys get competitive in the hopes of bringoing in new faces.You can disagree with the Champ and believe me I do from time to time but I don't do it on the WWW.On venues like this it is always better in my opinion to ask why somebody believes what they believe and try it out for yourself.If it works impleme nt it if it doesn't ignore them.
You can try it at Williamsport just for fun and see if that is correct.Simply add a 3rd day and see if your aggs drop.
If you look at Upper Nisqually or Eatonville in Washington state there results don't look like they shoot very well.If you drive up there your results look like there results.By the same token when Billy Copelin and Gary Noble drive down here they shoot better than they do at there own home range.The shoot at the side of Mt Ranier which is 14.411 feet tall and the weather is worse yet.
We tried for years to get our club to shoot the 1000 yard Nationals in October rather than September so the groups would shrink.We talked to the club and got together with Don Nielson and Lou Murdica and the switch was made.Our Nationals agg's have dropped and ourt scores have gone up.You no longer have to be a wind reader in order to win or place well so the more accurate rifles are moving up.
Charles E wanted to know eaerlier in this thread what a guy like Jim Hardy would say and Jim posted in the other
thread just as I quoted him above that yes you can read the wind at 1000 yards and he gave a good example of just how it is done.Charles E responded to Danny Brooks twice since then and has ignored Jim because he didn't agree with Jim pointing out he was dead wrong.Likewise 4Mesh dismissed his findings but he never called his thoughts BS like he did our 3 time National Champion.My rhetorical question is why not?
Drum roll please----Here is the National Weather Services History of the winds at Williamsport during the World Open.
Wind:
The Average Wind is 4 mph with a historical range of 0 mph to 9 mph
There is a 0% chance of a Windy Day (average wind over 10 mph / 15km/h).
(0 days out of 32 in historical record)
Here is why 4Mesh doesn't believe you can read the wind.You didn't have any wind to read.
Waterboy aka Lynn
P.S. When new guys come out to watch and ask about 1000 yard shooting the thing heard most often is "I was on the internet and my gun won't shoot 3 inches at 1000 yards so I don't come to the matches" If they stay to the finish I try and show them the winning groups and point out that some of the best eastcoast shooters in the history of the sport have come out here and have won but not one of them has set a small group record here in heavygun.If anybody east of the Mississippi comes out here this year and shoots a 3 inch group in heavygun I will give them $500 cash
D
dk hunt 14
Guest
The wind reading you are lookiing for Williamsport is at the airport, along the river, sandwhiched between two mountains running parallel. How can the wind blow there but one way? Where we shoot is on top a mountain 30 miles away,not even close to the same elevation or terrain. I thought your national was 6 targets total shot over. 2 to 3 days. sounds like a 6 target agg to me. Matt
Matt
Our nationals is a 12 target agg shot over 3 days.
I likewise looked the weather up at the closest point to your range and did the same thing for our range.Our range is in Ione better known as The Ione Triangle kind of like the Bermuda Triangle were ships and planes are lost forever.They call it The Ione Triangle because the weather there is between Sacramento,Rancho Murietta and Plymouth were the weather is always nicer than it is at the range.
We had a very good local shooter attend a match in Colorado one year and as he was standing there looking downrange tohooters from Williamsport were also looking downrange.They were talking about the winds and our local shooter was saying to himself yep yepper those are some pretty dead calm conditions and the groups will be small today.
When he heard them then say "I don't know how we are going to keep our shots on paper" he almost fainted.
Waterboy aka Lynn
Our nationals is a 12 target agg shot over 3 days.
I likewise looked the weather up at the closest point to your range and did the same thing for our range.Our range is in Ione better known as The Ione Triangle kind of like the Bermuda Triangle were ships and planes are lost forever.They call it The Ione Triangle because the weather there is between Sacramento,Rancho Murietta and Plymouth were the weather is always nicer than it is at the range.
We had a very good local shooter attend a match in Colorado one year and as he was standing there looking downrange tohooters from Williamsport were also looking downrange.They were talking about the winds and our local shooter was saying to himself yep yepper those are some pretty dead calm conditions and the groups will be small today.
When he heard them then say "I don't know how we are going to keep our shots on paper" he almost fainted.
Waterboy aka Lynn
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mike in co
Guest
lynn,
i have attended two matches at byers(1000yd)
both times the wind varied from morn till afternoon in intensity.
add to that , that at the firingline the wind was 20 plus at ort backs, and 0 to 15 at the targets...right to left, switching.
most guys were run and gun....they won two of four. the guy that used his flags won the other two.
small group of the day was a run and gun dasher.
so both styles will work,BUT to claim wind reading at 1000 does not work....well is just plain stupid.....
mike in co
i have attended two matches at byers(1000yd)
both times the wind varied from morn till afternoon in intensity.
add to that , that at the firingline the wind was 20 plus at ort backs, and 0 to 15 at the targets...right to left, switching.
most guys were run and gun....they won two of four. the guy that used his flags won the other two.
small group of the day was a run and gun dasher.
so both styles will work,BUT to claim wind reading at 1000 does not work....well is just plain stupid.....
mike in co
Lynn
In that center picture why aren't the flags moving, looks nice and calm and flat to me. I'll bet I could read the wind there my self. And sorry we can't shoot that many targets in one or two days we have to many people. Maybe next year if thing go right we may have a three day World Open. But for now it is what it is. Do you remember the guys from Williamsport and how they did shoot or were they scared of the wind and go home! Because I wish I Had the Money I'd be out for your Nationals. For now I'll have to be happy trying to win against the rum dumms from the East coast that can't read the wind.
In that center picture why aren't the flags moving, looks nice and calm and flat to me. I'll bet I could read the wind there my self. And sorry we can't shoot that many targets in one or two days we have to many people. Maybe next year if thing go right we may have a three day World Open. But for now it is what it is. Do you remember the guys from Williamsport and how they did shoot or were they scared of the wind and go home! Because I wish I Had the Money I'd be out for your Nationals. For now I'll have to be happy trying to win against the rum dumms from the East coast that can't read the wind.
Joe
All of those pictures were taken at the Natonals in October which is our best time of the year for weather.The center picture was taken an hour before we are allowed to shoot.If you look you can see it is all foggy.By the time the second or 3rd relay takes place the wind is blowing.
If you shoot 2 targets per gun and have 140 shooters adding a 3rd day doesn't take any longer to shoot or any additional benches you are simply adding another day of what you did the first two days.
I think those two shooters wet themselves so I didn't shake there hands.
Lynn aka Waterboy
All of those pictures were taken at the Natonals in October which is our best time of the year for weather.The center picture was taken an hour before we are allowed to shoot.If you look you can see it is all foggy.By the time the second or 3rd relay takes place the wind is blowing.
If you shoot 2 targets per gun and have 140 shooters adding a 3rd day doesn't take any longer to shoot or any additional benches you are simply adding another day of what you did the first two days.
I think those two shooters wet themselves so I didn't shake there hands.
Lynn aka Waterboy
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dk hunt 14
Guest
Lynn the shooter that went to colorado i believe was Ray Carley, i think i remember him telling me he placed really well with a light gun that didn't shoot very well at Williamsport. I thought he said the winds stayed pretty calm till noon. Matt
Matt
This was two shooters and it was several years back not last year.I didn't get the names but I'll ask Bob if Ray Carley sounds like one of them.
The wind out here works much the same way.If you can shoot all the relays quickly the aggs drop.
We have a club in Southern California called Ojai that is a honey hole but it is only 600 yards.I suspect it will hold all the NBRSA 600 Yard Records before long due to the nice conditions seen there.It has only held a handful of matches and records are reset at each match.
Lynn aka Waterboy
This was two shooters and it was several years back not last year.I didn't get the names but I'll ask Bob if Ray Carley sounds like one of them.
The wind out here works much the same way.If you can shoot all the relays quickly the aggs drop.
We have a club in Southern California called Ojai that is a honey hole but it is only 600 yards.I suspect it will hold all the NBRSA 600 Yard Records before long due to the nice conditions seen there.It has only held a handful of matches and records are reset at each match.
Lynn aka Waterboy
L
Leroy Johnson
Guest
Joe Salt
You are right about the flags and dead calm this was Sunday morning the third relay was up first we were held up waiting for the fog to clear, the only thing that moves the fog is wind.
You are right about the flags and dead calm this was Sunday morning the third relay was up first we were held up waiting for the fog to clear, the only thing that moves the fog is wind.
Since this thread has flipped from "ogive tolerance" to how bad the winds are at Sacramento, figure I will share the wind data from around the hours of last weekends IBS 1000 Yard Nationals at Harris, MN.
Thursday:
WIND (MPH)
HIGHEST WIND SPEED 18 HIGHEST WIND DIRECTION NW (320)
HIGHEST GUST SPEED 23 HIGHEST GUST DIRECTION NW (330)
AVERAGE WIND SPEED 6.1
Friday:
WIND (MPH)
HIGHEST WIND SPEED 35 HIGHEST WIND DIRECTION NW (300)
HIGHEST GUST SPEED 43 HIGHEST GUST DIRECTION NW (310)
AVERAGE WIND SPEED 17.7
Saturday:
WIND (MPH)
HIGHEST WIND SPEED 28 HIGHEST WIND DIRECTION NW (330)
HIGHEST GUST SPEED 38 HIGHEST GUST DIRECTION NW (330)
AVERAGE WIND SPEED 12.0
I for one was very impressed with how well most everyone performed in the winds. ..... Hat's off to all in attendance and involved !!!!!
Happy Shooting
Donovan Moran
Thursday:
WIND (MPH)
HIGHEST WIND SPEED 18 HIGHEST WIND DIRECTION NW (320)
HIGHEST GUST SPEED 23 HIGHEST GUST DIRECTION NW (330)
AVERAGE WIND SPEED 6.1
Friday:
WIND (MPH)
HIGHEST WIND SPEED 35 HIGHEST WIND DIRECTION NW (300)
HIGHEST GUST SPEED 43 HIGHEST GUST DIRECTION NW (310)
AVERAGE WIND SPEED 17.7
Saturday:
WIND (MPH)
HIGHEST WIND SPEED 28 HIGHEST WIND DIRECTION NW (330)
HIGHEST GUST SPEED 38 HIGHEST GUST DIRECTION NW (330)
AVERAGE WIND SPEED 12.0
I for one was very impressed with how well most everyone performed in the winds. ..... Hat's off to all in attendance and involved !!!!!
Happy Shooting
Donovan Moran
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Donovan
It looks like atleast 20-25 mph of gusting if I read your post correctly? Anybody there shoot any 4 inch Heavygun Groups?
I did notice the wind was predominantly from 320 or 330 degrees? If you take that same wind and move it around in a 200 degree switch it helps explain what Jerry was saying about holding off for each shot.
Lynn aka Waterboy
It looks like atleast 20-25 mph of gusting if I read your post correctly? Anybody there shoot any 4 inch Heavygun Groups?
I did notice the wind was predominantly from 320 or 330 degrees? If you take that same wind and move it around in a 200 degree switch it helps explain what Jerry was saying about holding off for each shot.
Lynn aka Waterboy
Lynn You have got to give this reading the wind a break, I'll hold in the center and if that rife won't shoot in the same spot that I'm holding, then its time to do something else to the gun and make it shoot. Been burned to many times trying. I've told you I'm no good at reading that stuff to busy trying to keep them in the center. So if you and the Champ of the NBRSA are doing it God bless you both. Find out if you can, how many read the wind at the Nationals, Probably the ones with D.Q. after there name.
Joe Salt
Joe Salt
Joe
I don't read the wind.
I like you have tried and have always been hugely unsuccessful.
I started reading a book on how it is done and have yet to get past about page 3 o 4 without flling asleep in my recliner.
If I was a doctor I surely wouln't prescribe sleeping pills to my insomniacs I would make them read that book.They would be cured the first day.
I also sort my bullets as well as anybody in my opinion.
The only reason for me to be following this thread is a 3 time National Benchrest Champion tried posting here and was run off by a couple of non-winners non-shooters for no good reason.
If you don't like his post ignore it or start your own post.If you disagree that is fine.If you call him a liar PROVE IT!
If you go to the wind reading thread you will see the response by Jim Hardy you should read its caption very carefully then read the message.
If you hold for center on each shot the guy sitting next to you can watch your spotter disk while watching the flags.It gives him the advantage.
Lynn aka Waterboy
I don't read the wind.
I like you have tried and have always been hugely unsuccessful.
I started reading a book on how it is done and have yet to get past about page 3 o 4 without flling asleep in my recliner.
If I was a doctor I surely wouln't prescribe sleeping pills to my insomniacs I would make them read that book.They would be cured the first day.
I also sort my bullets as well as anybody in my opinion.
The only reason for me to be following this thread is a 3 time National Benchrest Champion tried posting here and was run off by a couple of non-winners non-shooters for no good reason.
If you don't like his post ignore it or start your own post.If you disagree that is fine.If you call him a liar PROVE IT!
If you go to the wind reading thread you will see the response by Jim Hardy you should read its caption very carefully then read the message.
If you hold for center on each shot the guy sitting next to you can watch your spotter disk while watching the flags.It gives him the advantage.
Lynn aka Waterboy
4
4Mesh
Guest
Where I've shot, there is a time limit to the relay. It's 10 minutes.
Now, if the wind changes 200 degrees 12 hours from now, do I really care and does that affect my group? For me the answer is no. Maybe you guys shoot groups for 12 hours? With need to adjust so much, it sounds like it to me.
Unless something has changed and one of those people got a HG, there is only one name of PA shooter that I see who owns one. The others shoot lights only in both classes.
Now, if the wind changes 200 degrees 12 hours from now, do I really care and does that affect my group? For me the answer is no. Maybe you guys shoot groups for 12 hours? With need to adjust so much, it sounds like it to me.
Unless something has changed and one of those people got a HG, there is only one name of PA shooter that I see who owns one. The others shoot lights only in both classes.
4
4Mesh
Guest
Lynn, I know what a switch is. What I do not see is what a switch over a 12 hour period has to do with a 10 Minute relay. I also do not see what it would do to a target when the range is as flat as a pancake.
You say the place is so much tougher than we have here, but it can be read. Then you say guys from CO come to your range to shoot small groups. Then you say our range that sits on top of mountains has mountains blocking the wind and so it is easy. Then you say the range where these guys come from that has mountains 7 times as high as the ones here, and somehow that makes it tougher.
Now either they block the wind, or they don't. LMAO. Either the trees help, or they don't. Here's how I see it. Each range has good days and bad days. On the good days, guys who come prepared shoot small groups. I've seen it too many times for it to be chance. This is because they come prepared all the time in anticipation of shooting small if they might get a lucky relay. Perhaps you should prepare a little more and then go shoot some small groups when Your good day comes.
Now, I have to tell you, I got a terrific laugh out of one of your statements above. I've seen this before by a "Wind Reader", and it was hilarious.
Then, once upon a time, I had a wind reader shooting beside me and another one spotting for them. The one spotting was waiting till I'd shoot, then "Reading the conditions" for the shooter by looking at where my bullets went. It was comical. See, I wasn't adjusting my scope, but not aiming in the same spot for any two either. (Very common for me). When it's all said and done, I don't put my crosshairs in the center of the target anyhow. But anyway. So this person was calling shots and then they'd adjust, then wow, it came back now. Musta been a quick switch. So then I'd shoot where they were expecting and it would confirm their analysis. And on went the sighter period. Now at 12 sec, they shot their last sighter, and I shot mine at like 1 sec (I count down). I aimed mine just a little farther out than their last one had gone, and low and behold, I listen to the spotter say, look, it seems to be picking up a bit... yada yada yada. It was hard to not burst out laughing, but I managed not to. I went on to the group shootoff winning both Group and Score, and they shot out in the 8 ring. Some of the most fun I ever had in shooting. I wish I'd gotten a video of that.
The moral of the story is; If you decide to use someone elses sighters, don't use ole 4Mesh's. Don't use anyones who's gun doesn't shoot. And watch very carefully how many clicks they put on every shot. Know their gun and how it behaves in a sighter period. And most of all, if you're talking out loud, don't ever use someone else's sighter to confirm your guess. It's bad karma.
As for Jim Hardy, he said he reads wind in F-class very conventionally, and did the same thing anyone else does when he shot benchrest. I didn't see anything unusual in his post and he didn't exaggerate anything. I really don't know why you keep referring to it. I said the F-Class examples do not apply to our record strings. I don't care about wind reading in the sighter period. The sighter does that for me. Ya know, I also don't need years of F-class experience to understand it. I've shot sighter periods galore and it's the same thing as F-Class. Shoot, and they spot it, then adjust. It ain't rocket science Lynn.
You say the place is so much tougher than we have here, but it can be read. Then you say guys from CO come to your range to shoot small groups. Then you say our range that sits on top of mountains has mountains blocking the wind and so it is easy. Then you say the range where these guys come from that has mountains 7 times as high as the ones here, and somehow that makes it tougher.
Now either they block the wind, or they don't. LMAO. Either the trees help, or they don't. Here's how I see it. Each range has good days and bad days. On the good days, guys who come prepared shoot small groups. I've seen it too many times for it to be chance. This is because they come prepared all the time in anticipation of shooting small if they might get a lucky relay. Perhaps you should prepare a little more and then go shoot some small groups when Your good day comes.
Now, I have to tell you, I got a terrific laugh out of one of your statements above. I've seen this before by a "Wind Reader", and it was hilarious.
Tell me, how does someone know you are holding center? Does he just assume this because some people do? I suppose that's possible but, what could you possibly learn from that persons gun? How do you know how well it shoots? How do you know how much they've adjusted. How do you know that person isn't messing with ya, aiming all over hell? Ya see, I ask that cause I've had so called wind readers use my sighters in the past and I DO NOT aim my sighters in the same place. If a person beside me shoots one out slightly, I am likely to aim there and shoot one myself. I often aim 9-9 and even go up and down, just to make certain I do not have a "Same Spotter" and it not get moved. Ya know, the lower/raise thing but don't move the sighter. See I don't like them.If you hold for center on each shot the guy sitting next to you can watch your spotter disk while watching the flags.It gives him the advantage.
Then, once upon a time, I had a wind reader shooting beside me and another one spotting for them. The one spotting was waiting till I'd shoot, then "Reading the conditions" for the shooter by looking at where my bullets went. It was comical. See, I wasn't adjusting my scope, but not aiming in the same spot for any two either. (Very common for me). When it's all said and done, I don't put my crosshairs in the center of the target anyhow. But anyway. So this person was calling shots and then they'd adjust, then wow, it came back now. Musta been a quick switch. So then I'd shoot where they were expecting and it would confirm their analysis. And on went the sighter period. Now at 12 sec, they shot their last sighter, and I shot mine at like 1 sec (I count down). I aimed mine just a little farther out than their last one had gone, and low and behold, I listen to the spotter say, look, it seems to be picking up a bit... yada yada yada. It was hard to not burst out laughing, but I managed not to. I went on to the group shootoff winning both Group and Score, and they shot out in the 8 ring. Some of the most fun I ever had in shooting. I wish I'd gotten a video of that.
The moral of the story is; If you decide to use someone elses sighters, don't use ole 4Mesh's. Don't use anyones who's gun doesn't shoot. And watch very carefully how many clicks they put on every shot. Know their gun and how it behaves in a sighter period. And most of all, if you're talking out loud, don't ever use someone else's sighter to confirm your guess. It's bad karma.
As for Jim Hardy, he said he reads wind in F-class very conventionally, and did the same thing anyone else does when he shot benchrest. I didn't see anything unusual in his post and he didn't exaggerate anything. I really don't know why you keep referring to it. I said the F-Class examples do not apply to our record strings. I don't care about wind reading in the sighter period. The sighter does that for me. Ya know, I also don't need years of F-class experience to understand it. I've shot sighter periods galore and it's the same thing as F-Class. Shoot, and they spot it, then adjust. It ain't rocket science Lynn.