base to ogive tolerance when sorting???

4Mesh
You missed the entire point.If youi don't want to share your engine building secrets don't bother posting at all.Do you think if I called Richard Childress Racing and asked to talk to his best engine builder he would say sure no problem? I would think everyone in his shop has a signed contract that specificaly says you talk about our engines and you'll be in court the next day.
If I go to Drag-Racing.com or some other such forum I expect to be able to freely ask away about anything concerning drag racing engines.
If the top dogs choose not to answer that is swell and it is there choice.

When the best 600/1000 yard shooter in the history of the NBRSA comes on here and You Yourself haven't won a single National titlethebn you call everything he says BS you look like a very bitter little man who is jealous of his successes.He was telling everyone how he himself does it and if you don't like it tough twinkies.Yes you are free to openly debate him if he is willing to answer any of your silly questions but what gives you the right to call him a BS'er when your credentials don't hold muster?

I like most of your posts but it seems when someone comes on here who is a much better shooter than you detractors who have nothing to share you jump on them and run them off.It seems like you guys are afraid of any competition.

Mike in Co and MikeCR all of your questions can be answered by using the search feature and looking up the posts by Henry Childs or HBC. I would ignore the nonsense you are seeing here as it is petty at best.
This website and now this forum is at the lowest point it has ever seen.If you got nothing to say say nothing at all but don't ruin it for those of us who like this place.

Oh by the way I have the secret to world peace and world hunger but I'm not playing with you guys today--Give me a frickin break.
Waterboy aka Lynn
P.S. Next thing we need is a post about tuners so you experts without any titles can re-throw Bill Calfee off the forum.Ooops Jackie uses one so all is now well.
 
Yes Lynn, what I want is "National Titles". That's good...

I think you missed the entire point.

Did you ever show someone the basics of something and then allow them to carry out the process of getting to the end of the tunnel by doing their own work and having their own satisfaction doing so? Did you ever deal with someone who asks how something is done but does NOT want you to do it for them? I guess not. Ever learn by doing?

A question was asked, and I didn't really have much to say until the parts about "Bullet sorting doesn't matter", supported by data that pretty much proved, the sorting wouldn't help.

So Jerry is going to come here and tell all the people who sort bullets by weight, bearing surface, meplat size, base to ogive, or whatever, that it does not do anything, But his gun that shoots 15-20+fps of ES, needs no sorting, therefore its a waste of time.

Then after I say that's a bunch of crap, which it is, then it comes down to what range we shoot at and how terrible the wind is there. Ok, I'll buy, it's probably bad. But, if it is so much worse than here, how come the range is readable? Which is it Lynn, is it tough or isn't it?

THEN, after that, I hear Jerry say it is 'Not uncommon to make multi minute windage adjustments on EVERY SHOT'. Are you still with me Lynn? That is translated, "I sometimes adjust 20" on every shot". I've already specified BENCHREST, so now what is it? And, I'm supposed to believe this happens as the result of wind reading?

And you want me to keep a straight face while listening to that crap?

I'll tell you what, why don't you read back and see which one of us wanted our name listed in this thread with results. LIke anyone cares. What exactly is a "National Title" when it's a match 1/3 the size of ones we've had here in the regular season for a single class? If Jerry had said, I have better guns than anyone else out here and I prepare better, I'd never have said a word. But, I have adjusted 20" every shot while shooting a gun that shoots 21fps es, is a bit much for me to sit still for. Not for wind you didn't, or you shot bigger'n a house.
 
4Mesh said:
Yes Lynn, what I want is "National Titles". That's good...

Out here it means you brought your gun and ammo crafted anyway you like it and beat everybody else with there junk crafted anyway they wanted it.That is indeed good if done once it is even better if done repeatedly nd nobody on this forum other than Jerry has done it.I think Don "The Pumpkin" Nielson might have done it as well but what does he know as he doesn't sort bullets either!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Did you ever show someone the basics of something and then allow them to carry out the process of getting to the end of the tunnel by doing their own work and having their own satisfaction doing so? Did you ever deal with someone who asks how something is done but does NOT want you to do it for them? I guess not. Ever learn by doing?

Well I've been at this game for 10 years now and nobody has ever showed me a thing.I do read the posts by the successful shooters and try out there ideas to see if they help me or hurt me then implement what I think is beneficial.In my opinion if your a sharp guy its all just a matter of time and timing.Time allows you to make mistakes and remove or correct them for the next match.Timing is having all your ducks in a row when the big match roles around.

A question was asked, and I didn't really have much to say until the parts about "Bullet sorting doesn't matter", supported by data that pretty much proved, the sorting wouldn't help.

Jerry came on here as a very sucessful Benchrest Shooter who doesn't sort bullets and gave his opinion based on his findings and he posted a very small sampling of his data.You are disputing what?


So Jerry is going to come here and tell all the people who sort bullets by weight, bearing surface, meplat size, base to ogive, or whatever, that it does not do anything, But his gun that shoots 15-20+fps of ES, needs no sorting, therefore its a waste of time.

Yes that is what Jerry did.

Then after I say that's a bunch of crap, which it is, then it comes down to what range we shoot at and how terrible the wind is there. Ok, I'll buy, it's probably bad. But, if it is so much worse than here, how come the range is readable? Which is it Lynn, is it tough or isn't it?

You say its a bunch of crap yet you have no titles and haven't shot in years.Jerry has the titles and shoots a minimum of 5 days a week.What was your question again? No it doesn't come down to the range we shoot at because Jerry wins at more ranges around the world than anyone posting here.It is worldwide success.
I never said the range was readable because to me it isn't.Jerry said the range is readable because he does it and he does it quite well.If you ever had the chance to shoot with him he would tell you which shot number you blew and the pits could confirm or deny it.My money is on Jerry being correct.I guess you didn't read any of my earlier posts.I clearly stated it is tough most of the time.We do get one or two decent matches a year and one great match every 4-5 years.
If you were to go to weatherunderground.com and type in Williamsport,Pa and look at this sundays weather forecast by the hour and compare it to Sacramento,Ca something would jump out and bite you on the A$$.They have these little arrows that show you the winds directions every two - four hours.The wind this sunday at Williamsport will blow at 260 degrees for 18 hours out of the day and the big change in direction will come late in the evening when it goes to 270 degrees.All in all the range will see a 10 degree directional change from 2AM until the next day.
In Sacramento on the same website we will see a 130 degree change and we will see more change hourly than Williamsport will see in 24 hours.
If you look up the dates on what they call the trip planner you can input the dates for your world open and get historical highs and lows.I have done this and believe me when I tell you this YOU HAVEN'T SEEN NOTHING WHEN IT COMES TO WIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!i I suppose I could have hacked the website and planted that info so I suggest everybody does there own research on there own favorite weather website and then they can draw there own conclusions.

THEN, after that, I hear Jerry say it is 'Not uncommon to make multi minute windage adjustments on EVERY SHOT'. Are you still with me Lynn? That is translated, "I sometimes adjust 20" on every shot". I've already specified BENCHREST, so now what is it? And, I'm supposed to believe this happens as the result .of wind reading?

You seem to have a problem with the word BENCHREST as you mention it constantly.We are on Benchrest Central talking BENCHREST.Jerry is a BENCHREST shooter with atleast 3 BENCHREST national titles.He shoots with the Sloughhouse BENCHREST shooters in Sacramento.We don't shoot palma,highpower,across the course,prone,22 rimfire,cowboy action pistol,muskets,cannons,slingshots,rubber bands or pea shooters WE SHOOT BENCHREST.If that is unclear please let me know and I will know my parrot has escaped from its cage and is now posting on benchrest central using your user handle.
As you don't shoot in switchy conditions like is common out here the concept simply alludes you.I will now spell it a couple more times in case Robert Whitley is reading this.Alude,allude,elude,ilude,olude,ulude,ylude.Alinwa spell checker approved.
I guess my communication skills are tired right now but when the wind is blowing WHAT DOI YOU DO??????????????????????????? We have more wind so we do it bigger or with more magnitude.If you come out here you can hold for center on each and every shot.Our pit crew prefers shooters like that because your total score will likely be below 30 points and it doesn't use up the batteries in there calculators so quickly.


And you want me to keep a straight face while listening to that crap?

Jerry has done it and you haven't but your still entitled to your opinion even though your wrong.

I'll tell you what, why don't you read back and see which one of us wanted our name listed in this thread with results. LIke anyone cares. What exactly is a "National Title" when it's a match 1/3 the size of ones we've
had here in the regular season for a single class?

I recommended that a couple of new shooters check the match results.I posted the actual names and not the web handles because most actual shooters don't go by the name 4Mesh on the match results.In checking this out they would find Jerry Tierney,myself and John Crawford farely easily in the match results forum below.I could not find much on 4Mesh so I posted Phil Bowers and still not much came up.If you go to Butners new website you can see 7 matches and look up how Charles Ellertson is doing with his SOB.I recommend new shooters do this in order to avoid keyboard shooters.
As to the matches size since size does matter I suggest you never shoot shortrange benchrest.I say that because at a match with 10 shooters with one of them named Boyer,O'cock or Bruno you will get your A$$ handed to you.At a match with 240 shooters with one of them named Boyer,Ocock or Bruno you will still get your A$$ handed to you but atleast you can hideout in the crowd.
I would also suggest you don't tee off against Tiger Woods heads-up as even though you hypotheticaly have a 50-50 chance in reality you have no chance at all.I hope you find those analogies helpful in your size matters equation.

If Jerry had said, I have better guns than anyone else out here and I prepare better, I'd never have said a word. But, I have adjusted 20" every shot while shooting a gun that shoots 21fps es, is a bit much for me to sit still for. Not for wind you didn't, or you shot bigger'n a house.
Click to expand...



In conclusion your last quote above is your most profound!!!!!! Jerry had 3-4 guns with him one year and they didn't make weight so he called his wife who showed up shortly with half a dozen more rifles.They weighed them in and he shot the one that made weight to a win.Now for the profound part.Jerry will let you shoot his rifle and ammo and still beat you.Why you ask----------- drum roll please-------- Because he can read the wind and you can't.
The only chance you have at beating him is during a decently calm match were reading the wind is not as important.

Oh by the way did You read the part were I sort bullets?
I ask that question because wether or not Jerry is right or wrong he should be able to post without listening to all the Horse$hit being spread here.
Waterboy aka Lynn
 
Well, there certainly is a lot of horse$hit, on that we can agree. Apparently we just can't agree on what the particular substance is.

"Agreement" is overrated anyway. "What can't we just get along?" Dunno, but 4,000 years of human history says we can't.

"Explaining" isn't overrated, just hard. Too many variables. Too many people drawing conclusions on insufficient data. Too many people drawing conclusions based on something that can only exclude, rather than prove.

I can give several reasons why one person has success without sorting bullets, whereas another doesn't. Here's one: Person A uses one brand of bullets, Person B uses another. Person A says "all bullets need sorting," Person B says "horse$hit." That's just a case of insufficient data.

What, you say, "there isn't any brand that is that consistent" (politespeak for "Charles, you're pushing BIBs again, I don't believe they are that good").

Story from Steve Shelp: Long time ago, he had a friend who shot at Williamsport. A 6.5 of some sort. He had a good day, and one of the old Willamsport legends wandered over and said "Nice shooting son," and gave him 100 or so of the bullets that come in a green box. Unopened box, straight form the factory. Funny thing. When he shot those bullets, he won. When he ran out and had to shot the same green box bullets purchased in the normal way. Back to the middle of the pack.

Bob Crone use to shoot BR at Hawks Ridge. Shows up one day with some new 6mm Hornady A-max bullets and cleans our clocks. Half the world (well, the small world that shot 6mm in those days) rushes out to buy 6mm A-maxes. Not available yet. When the orders are filled, they shoot ho-hum. As do Bob's next batch. So the story goes, that first batch was handmade, the next made with the usual production techniques & all its tolerances.

Ever notice that the first lot of bullets from the commercial manufacturers often seem to be real good, with subsequent lots not always measuring up?

Column B: Somebody mentioned that bullet makers give Tierney bullets to test. It is a possible explanation. Could be wrong. What isn't wrong is that *amount of variation* from different manufacturers itself varies.

As for the wind: Anybody believe in unexplained phenomena? Phil says a "big" wind appears, he holds for it, and the shot goes where he held, not where it should have. We've all got stories like that -- more than one story, too. If we're careful, we say "insufficient data." I, for one, am not willing to suspend all the collected data and explanatory models from the science of external ballistics.

Phil says some barrels "shoot through the wind." So does Tony Boyer. But Mr. Boyer really means "they give up less," not that all drift goes away. A .020 improvement in Point Blank group shooting is a great thing. I suspect Phil means something similar.

* * *

As for reading the wind, don't any of you guys shoot point-blank BR? Y'all just squirm on your belly like highpower shooters or the girl of song? Go shoot a few 100 yard score matchs & ponder the differences between that and 1K BR.
 
Lynn, I have had good match shooters lie to me, when talking right to your face. Phil will not lie to you and he is telling you what he believes. If you think good bullets don't matter, look at what John Buhay has done in the shootoffs at Williamsport this year. I think he has 8 wins total in light and heavy combined. Those numbers are really great because in the shootoff you are shooting against 10 really good guns. The bullets they are using are custom made 6mm. Every bullet is within .001 in bearing, .001 in total length and within 1/100 of a grain. Frank Weber also just broke the light gun score record with the same bullets. If you think sorting bullets doesn't matter then so be it. But if you really want to shoot small , YOU MUST HAVE GOOD BULLETS. Our shootoffs are the relay winners and usually they have 10 relays with around 10 shooters each. A lot of really good shooting guns end up in the shootoff. Matt Kline
 
Lynn, you do make me laugh.

One thing I see that's consistent with you. The more elixirs and snake oils someone is selling, the more you buy. You avoid working on mechanical provable things like the plague.

How many "Titles" do you have Lynn? I'm thinking of one...

Now, Mr Scientific... You look up "Williamsport" and "Sacramento". Are either of the 1000 yard ranges within the city limits? Are they at the airport? Hmmm, Williamsport, like virtually every city in the world, is situated near a river. See, in the old days, folks needed water. Water goes to low elevations. Like, the lowest. Now, the airport at Williamsport where your data comes from is situated between two very close mountain ranges. The airport is basically sitting in a bowling alley, and there simply is no way for wind to be in multiple directions. It hasn't got a choice, there's walls on 2 sides. The range at Williamsport is what, 30 miles from there, on top of the mountains and with no surrounding mountains that are higher? Hmmm, look up the weather graph for there instead. Sorry, but, historical records are not kept for that location since it's in the middle of nowhere. (tho I did consider doing it at one time). I used to post weather graphs on the wailing wall before every match and there would be 360 degree changes there during some days, admittedly not often, but 180 wasn't uncommon to be shown. If you think things just blow one direction at the PA club, well, they don't.

One of the "Nationals" winners lists I saw (never did see a relay results) showed a HUGE margin between 1st to 5th. Jerry was shown in 5th there several times so I use that number here. That indicates to me, not a whole lot of shooters with equipment capable of winning. Results at agg matches around these parts do not look that way. Typical win margins are .1" or .2" unless someone really cranks something, and a 5th place might be back a whole inch of agg, not 3". But remember, it's all luck cause we only shoot 2 targets per class. Results at regular matches can be extremely close. I've been in relays with 5 of 10 shooters shooting a 5.x group. This year in one shootoff a 4" 100 took third place. ALL the guns are capable, there isn't 3 or 4 shooters who are life and death serious. (or one)

Experienced shooter... shows up at the match with 4 guns and none of em fit the rules... Bring me 10 more and I"ll find something legal to shoot with... I had to laugh out loud, sorry Lynn. Needs 15 guns to find one for the match. :D A good question too, did you hold the match up for that?

One last question for ya Lynn. If a person goes to the pb br forum and says they have a factory rifle that shoots 2's all day long, what do the shooters there say? This is something they are reasonably certain, like bet their lives certain, is patently false. They call the person out on it, pretty simple. Seen it enough times.
 
Lynn
Go to 6mm br and read what David Tubb said about reading the wind, THERE IS A LOT OF LUCK INVOLED! So if you have a good shooting rifle and guess it right , you win.
Joe Salt
 
Joe Salt said:
Lynn
Go to 6mm br and read what David Tubb said about reading the wind, THERE IS A LOT OF LUCK INVOLED! So if you have a good shooting rifle and guess it right , you win.
Joe Salt
Click to expand...
\give us a link..as i did not see an artcle by david.

did david say HE DID NOT READ THE WIND ???

10 11 NATIONAL championships.....???

there is luck in most things........but the winners are typically those that MINIMIZE what they can CONTROL.
 
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Mike Go to the daily bulletin under Shooting sports USA turn the page, you will find the part about wind reading. Oh and I don't believe David has just a run of the mill rifle he is shooting. I'm sure he puts a lot of time in preparation into loading besides. But I would like to see if someone could teach me to read the wind at our range. I promise I will give my utmost respect to this person if he tells my were to hold and all the bullets go in the center. Not saying it can't be done, but in my 30 some years at this my only hope or LUCK has been one hell of a good shooting rifle. And a good relay.

Joe Salt
 
joe,
your comment is complety out of context with the actual artilcle.
david shot 47 10's across the period of a day at 1000 yds.....constantly accounting FOR wind, ..............he was being quite polite claiming it was "luck" that allowed him to win......47 10,s at 1000 yds with iron sights is not all luck.

mike in co
Joe Salt said:
Lynn
Go to 6mm br and read what David Tubb said about reading the wind, THERE IS A LOT OF LUCK INVOLED! So if you have a good shooting rifle and guess it right , you win.
Joe Salt
Click to expand...
 
I believe most of the tools used to measure the bearing surface of a bullet are not very accurate. If you use a barrel stub with a reamer ran in, it is not a very accuurate way to measure. I also believe most of the tools sold for this are not very accuate. Matt Kline
 
See Mike this is what I don't like about putting this stuff on this forum, you take things the wrong way. Its not like talking in person. Nothing against his abilities he is probably one of the best shots in the country but I would like to sit next to him on a bench and see if I could keep up. I put some good ones in there once in a while myself and against some of the toughest Benchrest shooters on the EAST COAST, Did you read that right. Even I get LUCKY. So if he said it it must be true.
JOE SALT
 
The rain simply will not let me finish this house this weekend, so I thought I'd address a point. Another of Lynn's fish stories...

Lynn said:
Well I've been at this game for 10 years now and nobody has ever showed me a thing.
Click to expand...

Actually Lynn, I think your memory is not so good. Let's see if you remember this...

Few years back, you were spending a kings ransom on tuners. Remember? By your estimates at the time, I think you said in the neighborhood of about $10K? Please correct me if I'm wrong but I do believe you cited that machine work there is expensive. I agree, yes it is.

After many discussions, and disagreements, SOME PERSON on the forum offered you the use of an Agilent 4 Channel 500Mhz Digital Storage Oscilloscope, Probes, a power supply, any sensors and equipment you needed except that there was a high-res accelerometer that you needed and that was about 100 bucks and you had to purchase that yourself. This way, you would have EVERY tool you needed to stop poking in the dark and get REAL DATA from YOUR tuner (that I say is bs). But, This offer was made and you refused.

Do you remember that Lynn?

Do you remember who offered you every tool at his disposal and offered even to pay the shipping?

Do you have even the slightest concept of how much a 4 channel DSO like that costs? Go HERE TO THIS LINK and sort by price and just look for the cheapest one. That's a 2 channel, but who's counting, you only needed two anyhow.

Do you know ANY other shooter in the shooting world that would make such an offer even to a close friend, much less to someone they'd never met? I guess there's none at your range is there?

Take a poll and see how many people who actually know me think that sounds like the 4Mesh they know. Ya know, the one who won't help anyone. AKA, ... 4Mesh... That's my name.

Has any of your beloved champions ever made such an offer? I think in your own words above, the answer is no isn't it?

Do you know what I think the problem was Lynn? Did you read the part above where I said I prefer to let people learn on their own rather than doing for them? You were too damn lazy to even accept the challenge of finding out the answer that you didn't want to know anyhow, even if I paid the bill for you to find it. You knew before you checked that there was nothing to find cause I told you so. How close am I?

Rest assured, you'll never see an offer like that again.
 
4Mesh said:
The rain simply will not let me finish this house this weekend, so I thought I'd address a point. Another of Lynn's fish stories...



Actually Lynn, I think your memory is not so good. Let's see if you remember this...

Few years back, you were spending a kings ransom on tuners. Remember? By your estimates at the time, I think you said in the neighborhood of about $10K? Please correct me if I'm wrong but I do believe you cited that machine work there is expensive. I agree, yes it is.

After many discussions, and disagreements, SOME PERSON on the forum offered you the use of an Agilent 4 Channel 500Mhz Digital Storage Oscilloscope, Probes, a power supply, any sensors and equipment you needed except that there was a high-res accelerometer that you needed and that was about 100 bucks and you had to purchase that yourself. This way, you would have EVERY tool you needed to stop poking in the dark and get REAL DATA from YOUR tuner (that I say is bs). But, This offer was made and you refused.

Do you remember that Lynn?

Do you remember who offered you every tool at his disposal and offered even to pay the shipping?

Do you have even the slightest concept of how much a 4 channel DSO like that costs? Go HERE TO THIS LINK and sort by price and just look for the cheapest one. That's a 2 channel, but who's counting, you only needed two anyhow.

Do you know ANY other shooter in the shooting world that would make such an offer even to a close friend, much less to someone they'd never met? I guess there's none at your range is there?

Take a poll and see how many people who actually know me think that sounds like the 4Mesh they know. Ya know, the one who won't help anyone. AKA, ... 4Mesh... That's my name.

Has any of your beloved champions ever made such an offer? I think in your own words above, the answer is no isn't it?

Do you know what I think the problem was Lynn? Did you read the part above where I said I prefer to let people learn on their own rather than doing for them? You were too damn lazy to even accept the challenge of finding out the answer that you didn't want to know anyhow, even if I paid the bill for you to find it. You knew before you checked that there was nothing to find cause I told you so. How close am I?

Rest assured, you'll never see an offer like that again.
Click to expand...

Matt Kline
If you were to actually re-read any of my posts I do sort all of my bullets and have posted that on this thread.I am sorry you can't find it but it is there.

Phil
I never posted that I spent $10K on tuners YOU ARE WRONG.I would correct your post but at this point you are so comical I am actually laughing while replying.

I worked on X and Ku band amplifiers for 22 years for the government but no I have never used any low frequency outdated equipment such as what you have mentioned.I also built DRO's and Yig's for 5 years before doing OTHBR then switched to building a satellite simulator for Korea Telesat while at H.P. using 2 47dbm traveling wave tubes at 1.3 million dollars each. I also did millimeter wave for about 3 years as well.These names might ring a bell for you even though none of them would use o-scopes, I started out at Avantek which at the time was the worlds largest microwave company building Gallium Arsenic Field Effect Transistor Amplifiers for integrated front ends on missile systems such as Pheonix and HARM.I then went on to work for Loral Space and Missile systems on fabian lane building high-rel amplifiers.In the early days we were triple redundant and they had to last 7 years so there was no pushing the envelope as once in orbit they are tough to service.When I left we were building double redundant units with a 13 year lifespan required in order to get Loyds of London to insure them.

I could go on and on but I figure you have already went sour on me but I do remember your offer.I declined your offer because after spending most of my life looking at waveshapes for 50 hours a week I had nothing to gain by using your test equipment.The only poster here with more wave experience than myself is no longer posting here but if my memory is any good he is from North Dakota?
I know your feathers are all ruffled up by now but I still need a few questions answered.
Did you notice that Jerry had all of his measurements but only posted a small number?
Why did Jerry do that if he doesn't sort bullets?
Was Jerry going to tell us all what is important about bullets?
And if yes why didn't you simply ask him that question instead of saying BS BS BS BS before ever finding out why he posted?
Most scientific minds would rather show you how to fish and feed you for a lifetime than give you a fish and feed you for a meal.You probaly don't remember the post were Charles E ran Henry Childs off the forum but I do.Nobody ever asked Henry what was actually going on.If they had he would have answered them.
If those are not sinking in I'll help you out a little bit.When somebody comes on here with measurements posted and says there meaningless next time ask them which measurements matter and which measurements don't in there opinion.You will most likely get an answer you can check out for yourself and believe it or not you might even learn something.Doubtful but atleast a possibility.
I am feeling most generous tonight so I'll even help you out on your WRONG POST ABOVE.It had nothing to do with tuners.Think more along the line of tensioned tubes.I'll even help you out further someone on this thread who gets free machine work from a friend said it was impossible to spend that much money only to have a actual machinist from Australia set him straight.Am I close yet?


Mike in Co
Its a real shame the non-shooters ran off a multi-disciplined championship winning benchrest shooter before we could ask him anything.As a actual winner he has lots to offer but can't spend good time seperating out the chaff and he shouldn't have to.Like I said earlier look up the match results and look for the group sizes as its a real eye-opener.If my groups looked like that I wouldn't give away to many bullet sorting secrets either.
Waterboy aka Lynn
 
lynn,
i actually find it strange that a guy that is not currently shooting 1000 yd br has been so vocal, but has only won "club" matches.....ok so pa's club is well known...but he bad mouths the nationals in sacto...cause of the number of shooters. the only shooter that counted was him and he did not show...so it was a"non champion" national...lol
i won my club sniper match 4 yrs in a row. not only won but took 4 of the top 6/7 places each year...yeah i shot four different guns.but that does not apply here....neither does his club wins.
my guess at this point is that it is attidudes like that keep us from having a single us br organization.
keep up the good work
mike in co
ouch...
 
Mike in Co
The problem at this website is non of these guys can check there over-inflated egos at the door and let someone new play in there sandbox.
If you remember back when Bill Calfee came on this website they all cried and howelled that he was a nut.The worst ones were the Supermoderators with there super egos.Freud wrote about it in the 20's in his book the ego and the id.
They were so busy trying to show us there superior intellect that they didn't look his name up and find out he was the best rimfire gunsmith in the world or that he had placed higher at the supershoot than all but 2 of them.I posted that question and it took the experts 3 days to get the answer to my question yet they were all bashing him.Of course if you read Freuds book you already why but for the life of me I don't know why they are allowed to continue.
Naturaly one of the biggest detractors has just set a agg record using a tuner and naturaly it had nothing at all to do with any of Bill's posts.
If you have ever raised turkeys you would know to put chickens in with the chicks so they figure out how to eat.I am suprised that the turkeys here have managed to survive as long as they have.I suspect they are all very thin.

I worked with a very sharp engineer for several years when an old man came in as a technical writer to check our work before submitting it.One day my friend came to me and said look at all these corrections to my work by that old man.He was about to rip the guys head off he was so disgusted so I had him take a break while I went over his work.I approached the old man and asked him why the work was wrong.He got a huge smile on his face and we discussed it for several days.Long story short the old man invented the circuitry we were working with and new its limitations.He had retired but was still interested in the work so he came on as a technical writer for extremely little money.
One more analogy before I go deer hunting.In my younger days I considered myself a decent water skier.I had a friend I always went with and we always went on christmas day.It was a meeting point in case we had lost contact during the year.He had a friend we took out many many times and each trip there was a reason he never showed us how good he was.Wrong ski wrong rope length no glove you name the excuse he had it.One day we were on my boat and I had every concievable excuse covered.I asked him if he would like a tow and for the first time in almost 3 years he said sure why not.To this day I have never seen or met a better skier.
I learned from these two gentleman it is always better to ask question than to make statements because there is always somebody out there better than you think you are.I have worked with some extremely bright people and the one thing they all seem to have in common is a lack of communicating with normal people.
The next time some nut tells you he can turn cotton candy into diamonds rather than running him off ask him to show you how.If you only get one right answer your set for life.
Waterboy
 
Well Lynn,

You certainly did work for a lot of companies that make high tech stuff? What did YOU do? Work in the mail room? Sounds to me like you had trouble keeping a job as well. Doesn't really surprise anyone I'm sure. So if you possess all these skills, what are you doing working at the post office? Do they have a lot of call for that sort of skill? I know a few people who work for post offices here and they don't have to ask for vacation a year in advance. I guess you're not valuable enough to have that sort of benefit.

Ya know, I know lots of guys who are machinists and shoot, and most of them don't generally avoid collecting data with their guns due to not wanting to do a little machine work. Funny how you have decades of experience "Looking at waveforms" yet, now in 10 years of shooting, supposedly attempting to become better shooter, and while testing "Tuners" and tension barrel guns, you have no desire to learn anything about those devices. You'd prefer to tighten a screw here and there and go shoot a group, and see if that was different than the one last week.

No, YOU are wrong when you say it had to do with tension barrels, as I've never cared one way or the next about them. My theory is, if you stretch a really good barrel, it'll shoot. The fact that they tend to move less is as painfully obvious as it can be. Simple physics. But, there's compromises.

Lynn, how small have you ever shot? You keep referring to my shooting, but, what credentials do you have? If I look at the NBRSA history, could I find your name at the top of any lists? I mean, where I shot, there was more shooters in a regular match than there is in the NBRSA LR. How many 10 shot groups have you ever fired in the 4's? I mean, you've shot for a decade and clearly you're so intelligent you should be way ahead of the crowd. You'd think you'd progress at some point eh? How many in the 3's? How many in the 10 ring?

Now, as for me saying BS about Jerry's bullet sorting or lack thereof. Again, your memory is not so good is it. When exactly did I say, "Bs, bs bs"? Huh? I think it was at the part where Jerry said he adjusts 20" every shot, wasn't it? Here's where it began:

jerryhm said:
July 2010

IS IT WORTH WHILE TO SORT BULLETS?

Palma Rifle 308 win.
Measured base to ogive with a barrel stub cut with the chamber reamer.
Measured the loaded round from bottom of case to ogive with same stub.

Notice that the seating die reduces the case/ogive as compared to the base/ogive!

Group 01 -----
---- B/OGIVE --- CASE/OGIVE --- MV
--- +0.000 ------- +0.000 ------------ 3020 -------- Bullet used to zero tools.
--- +0.000 ------- +0.002 ------------ 3025
--- +0.000 ------- +0.002 ------------ 3006
Click to expand...

Now, low and behold, by looking at this data in the first 3 shots, I see several things. He has 2 rounds with Identical B/Ogive C/Ogive, so his theory about the seater being the problem is wrong. He has MORE ERRORS. Isn't that what I said?

Now, on the two rounds with identical B/O C/O, he has 21fps es. And it doesn't get a whole lot better later. Now, with most rifles exterior ballistics numbers, that translates to at least 5" at 1000 yards. He goes on to say, he does not sort bullets cause he can beat you without doing it, and so sorting doesn't matter. I say, no way, sorting matters.

And we come back to where now the wind is so bad and yada yada yada.

Shooting isn't the only thing in my life, or in anyone elses life usually. If I return to shooting, I fully expect to be very competitive. I don't care if they change the name of our matches to "National Championship" in order to then say I'm a National Champion if I win. Of the people I know, nobody really cares. They all stick their pants on one leg at a time, and I've never seen one so childish as to ask to have match results posted so they could boast about a match win.

I said earlier that the only way bullets don't need sorted is if someone else already sorted them for you. I believe that's been covered now a few times.

And, you're continuing to rant while expecting any 3rd match 1K shooter to believe anyone alive adjusts 20" every shot and stays on a target (shooting anything less than 24") is simply absurd. Go back and re-read, you'll see what I took issue with.
 
4Mesh said:
Well Lynn,

You certainly did work for a lot of companies that make high tech stuff? What did YOU do? Work in the mail room? Sounds to me like you had trouble keeping a job as well. Doesn't really surprise anyone I'm sure. So if you possess all these skills, what are you doing working at the post office? Do they have a lot of call for that sort of skill?

Phil
I didn't even begin to list the amount of companies I've worked for but rest assured those listed are a small number.I didn't wok in the mail room I mowed the lawn.LOLROFLMAO
You obviously have never even heard of silicon valley or how it works out here but as you have been a good sport I'll attempt a cluing in(stop Lynn don't do it you'll be sorry you tried)sorry about that my sub-conscious tried to warn me.
Out here when your a specialist in a certain field or body of work your jobs last until they are completed then you move on to another project.If there is nothing interesting going on you go next door.You could work for company "A" until lunch time then move on to company "B" after lunch.


I know a few people who work for post offices here and they don't have to ask for vacation a year in advance. I guess you're not valuable enough to have that sort of benefit.

I don't work with the mail or even touch it on a daily basis as I suspect your buddies do.I might however have certain skills they can use especially since 9-11.I don't know why your buddies don't put in for there vacations as required maybe they are Rebels? maybe they can be replaced very easily by someone else? In any event I follow the rules.


Ya know, I know lots of guys who are machinists and shoot, and most of them don't generally avoid collecting data with their guns due to not wanting to do a little machine work. Funny how you have decades of experience "Looking at waveforms" yet, now in 10 years of shooting,
supposedly attempting to become better shooter, and while testing "Tuners" and tension barrel guns, you have no desire to learn anything about those devices. You'd prefer to tighten a screw here and there and go shoot a group, and see if that was different than the one last week.

I don't understand your question or even if it was a question? On the tuners you don't need to look at a waveform.You need to set the weight out in front of the muzzle the correct distance at the correct weight.You need to center it up as best as possible and this is done atleast by me by shooting ammo downrange and moving the adjustable weight.If you are going about this by machinig the end of your barrel God Bless You.

I lost your next line somehow but it was about me being wrong on the $10K.I think you misquoted the price as the cost of a tuner when it should have been the cost of a tensioned barrel gun.Charles E said there was no way in ell I could have spent that much money on one.I told him that out here machine work was $120 an hour so you can tell it has been quite a while.It is now $180 an hour.He thought for some strange reason Joe Six-Pack reading this forum could walk into machining job shop and tell someone to build him a tensioned barreled gun without blue prints for $100.In the real world it just doesn't happen that way.Luckily Tony from Australia sent me the plans and as soon as my Bartlein barrel gets here(10 months)Jim Borden will semble tension gun number 3.I was making it over a year ago in 300 wsm but do touch confusion it got put together as a conventional rifle.I have never spent $10k on a tuner.If you can find the post were I said I spent $10k on a tuner let me know and I'll correct it.

Again I went to highlight your post and lost it.
You asked about my shooting.
You need to do a search on the NBRSA website and see what you can find.You can also do a search in the match forum below.I post the match results for each match I attendand this year I missed two in a row.Other than that they should all be there.
You also wanted to know about my credentials.If you re-call I wasn't the guy calling 3 time National Champion Benchrest shooter Jerry Tierney with 40 plus National records in other disciplines a liar you were.Usually when you say someone is a BS'er or liar you better be able to back up such a claim and you can't because you don't have the credentials.You also asked about 4 inch groups so I looked up the results from Ohio,Hawks Ridge,Virginia and several others and all I can say is you don't know squat about the wind or your better than everybody else.In my humble opinion and from reading this post I would say you don't shoot much in the wind.
I don't have the credentials either so I keep my mouth shut and not act the fool like others.
You should be able to see I placed 10th overall at the last Nationals.I placed 6th in heavygun group and 6th in heavygun score 13th in lightgun score and way back around 40th in lightgun group.Those are estimated rankings as I don't have my paperwork handy.
In lightgun it rained out here and I never got my seating depth dialed in so my gun shot centered up but lousy for group.
As to the rest of your rant I will let the readers here look at your earlier posts and decide for themselves who called BS to whom.
Lynn aka Waterboy
Click to expand...
 
Mike there will never be one organization in thousand yard. Too many clubs, rules and the distance to shoot matches would be to great. Just like there is more than one in short range. I base seeing what a person does by sizes of groups, scores, and aggs, also by traveling to other ranges like IBS nationals and other shoots. I really don't get to see much on the west coast because it is too far. I have never been past Pella Iowa. Matt
 
Mike in Co
Here are some photos of the Sacramento 1000 yard range.If you scan on all sides of the photos outer edges it will give you an idea of the surroundings of the club.As you probaly already know Sacramento is a very large Port and a quick wiki search would show you Mount Whitney at well over 14,000 feet in altitude as posted earlier.
4 mph SE
(130°)
2 mph SE
(130°)
4 mph SE
(140°)
6 mph WNW
(290°)
8 mph WNW
(300°)
6 mph WNW
(300°)
6 mph NW
(320°)
2 mph NNW
(330°)

Here is todays wind according to the National Weather Service.I hope they are not partial?
You should notice several things about the wind.The first thing youi should notice is the 200 degree change in direction.As you know 180 degrees is a total switch which means 5 mph at 130 degrees and 5 mph at 210 degrees means a 10 mph switch.

4 mph WNW
(290°)
2 mph West
(280°)
2 mph West
(270°)
6 mph West
(260°)
8 mph WSW
(250°)
9 mph WSW
(250°)
0 mph WSW
(250°)
0 mph West
(280°)

Here is todays weather at Williamsport according to the National Weather Service.
You will see 160 degrees less wind variation or what we call out here a steady wind.If you were now to go to another wind reading post started after they chased off a true wind reader please note the range is surrounded by trees.Now compare that to the photos included above.
Now for a little unscientific test you can do at home.
Take and set a balance beam scale up on a coffee table or TV tray and set it to read exactly 0 grains.Now have your wife/girlfriend take a 110 volt electric fan and standing in one position have her point it at your scale.Now surround that scale with your encyclopedia britanica collection.This would represent Williamsport.
Now remove all of the books and have her walk all around the scale while still aiming the fan at it.This would represent Sacramento.
The wind speed would remain constant in both instances but the trees and singular direction of the wind will be more easily dealt with.
Earlier in this thread Charles E asked what Jim Hardy might think about reading the wind now that he is shooting F-Class as opposed to Benchrest.
In that other thread Jim replied YES YOU CAN but it was dismissed by 4Mesh.
Tread very carefully when taking advice from your fellow competitors my friend.
Waterboy
 
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