base to ogive tolerance when sorting???

[Charles E]

I'm not sure any of my words are immortal. "Don't mislead" would be good ones, though.

I don't sort bullets, at least, not by shank length. Bad habit, I suppose. I shot enough BIBs with ES (not SD) in the <8 region to not worry about velocity variations. The bad habit is I don't always shoot BIBs.

When I sort bullets, I set them up on the Juenke and have the sound head a bit up from the shank/beginning of ogive junction. And what I look at is not deviation, but the number itself -- comparatively. The old Sierra 142 MKs use to give two readings -- you'd sort into two batches. Each shot great, within their own batch. Not if you didn't segregate them, though.

I use to check boattails, too, and that was for deviation (offset mass). It was remarkable how many bullets had <10 deviation units on the shank or ogive, but had boattails that wandered (i.e., >10) Off-center mass is still off-center, wherever it falls. And the boattail is one place it can be common.

Usually, What I'm really interested in is the ogive, which affects drag. Hand-made bullets tend to have the same shank length, or the operator isn't paying attention. But the point depends on the lube, and that can vary. Pretty hard to get the lube even across a long run of bullets.

What I believe, anyway.

Low velocity variations doesn't equal low vertical dispersion, it's only one factor. Two bullets with the same velocity & weight but with slightly different drag will show vertical at 1,000 yards.

To test, you need an Oehler 42 with the microphone "target." Sort by whatever it takes to get low SD on velocity, AND BC (drag). You can tune the load some to get rid of the effects of velocity variations. I don't know of any tuning that will get rid of the effects of variations in drag (B.C.)

First Larry Bartolomew (sp) then Dave Tooley did work on this with a Oehler 42. Dave and I saw a lot of the raw data from Larry's testing, and noticed the tipped bullets had the lowest ES in B.C. Dave began tipping bullets, then went to meplat trimming to achieve the same end -- less ES, albeit a bit lower B.C.

So when anyone talks of "sorting bullets," I kinda tune out, unless they say WHY they are sorting, and have some statistically significant data to back it up. Can it matter? Sure.

But the only variance I've seen with the BIBs 187s is what I mentioned earlier -- a sometimes a slightly different length ogive between different lots, likely due to difference is jackets & lube. So I get lazy, and just be sure I stay within a lot at a match.

YMMV.

 

[JMC]

4mesh,

I shoot in Sacramento with Jerry and Lynn and no we never practice in good conditions a good condition at 600 yds is when the wind switches direction and you only have to adjust 1.5-2.5 moa, that’s a good condition. A thousand yards can be another story and the amount of shots dropped off target at 600 and a 1000 yrds is quite a few. Yes Jerry does win but not with small groups he does not make the big mistakes and when you run your shots you set yourself up for the big mistakes. Jerry is a very consistent shooter who can read the wind better than almost anyone and better than the one who runs his bullets.

My gunsmith Gary Ocock is one of the better short range shooters, wind dopers and does not run his groups and reads conditions and picks and chooses his shots. What do both have in common, they don’t make the big mistake, they win and part of their game plan is the people who run and gun not stopping in time and then get a big group. Different people different styles.

I am with Jerry and do not sort my bullets either and my 6 Grendel will shoot with the best of them and usually I place in all matches I shoot in except when they are in Ojai and a lady I know who has never shot before shoots a world record with my rifle. Bullets straight out of the box more important things to worry about then sorting bullets.

Sacramento is a tough windy range the short range guys have yet to my knowledge shoot a teen agg in 100 or 200 yrd group shooting and they get some top shooters out there. In this day and age in short range when more and more matches are shooting teen aggs and Sac still hasn’t shot one yet, yes the wind is tough and switchy out there. Look at the group sizes that Lynn posted in of our last match, not pretty and he only posted the shooters that placed and some of the shooters that placed dropped shots off of the target the shooters that did not place dropped a lot of shots off of the target and the groups got big.

Here is a link that shows Jerry’s full blown benchrest rifle he won the NBRSA nationals with, and as Lynn said he has fired more rounds and has done more testing than the next 30 shooters behind combined.

http://www.6mmbr.com/600nbrsa08.html

John

 

[mike in co]

well while you guys were discussing the merits, i completed the 498 bullet sort.
>.797 2
796 22
795 73
794 203
793 132
792< 67

it definitely skewed to the low end......
the five boxes packaged from one lot has a spread of 791 to 798.....0.007
mike in co

 

[mike in co]

jerry...i am new, you are not. this is a serious question. how did you sort your brass ??
i'm starting with 100+ pc of rws 300 win mag that is +/- 0.5.
i'll be using a mx123 for powder weighing. ( 0.02 accuracy/0.03 sensitivity)

mike in co

Mike in co
I only posted a small part of the test data. I believe that sorting in most cases is a waste of time, having sorted and shot thousands of them, but once in while I find a bad bullet when sorting. Were the cases sorted -YES. Was the powder within .05 - NO it was weigh to +- one kernel.

Who says a palma rifle is not a bench rest rifle? All you have to do is add a scope and a little block on the bottom and you got a 16# heavy gun for 1000 yard bench rest matches.

Mikecr.
That data was part of a test I did for some one on their sorted bullets. I have asked the same question many times (what are you really measuring).
I seat the bullet way short of the lands and a couple of thousands variations in seating don't matter.

 

[Charles E]

Testimonial evidence -- so & so won X number of matches or National Championships is worth something. But there is always the context.

California is NBRSA country. NBRSA shoots multiple target aggs for the Nationals, What is it, 6 targets each light and heavy? I don't even know. OK, if you shoot 12 targets, "not making a mistake" can be a good strategy, especially if the conditions are challenging.

IBS and Pennsylvania (where Phil shoots) shoot, typically, two targets LG and two HG targets for the Nationals. A total of 4 targets. There will be 25 people or more who don't make a big mistake. Not making a big mistake will not be a successful strategy

Those unfamiliar with the IBS or Pennsylvania format often complain that the few targets make it a matter of luck. The usual format, in matches other than the Nationals, is you are only shooting against everyone else on the same relay. Win your relay and move on. Lose and go home. That takes the luck element down to bench assignment, relay draw is far less relevant. Luck then, is LESS a factor than with the NBRSA format at a regular match. But we don't do this at the Nationals, more's the pity. We shoot an agg that is too few targets.

So point one is success with NBRSA Nationals may not transfer to success at IBS or Pennsylvania Nationals.

Point two is that ranges differ. I don't know anyone who could read the wind, or mirage, at Hawks Ridge, and I know a fair number of 1K shooters. I've only shot the Pennsylvania range once, but it felt like the same kind of range. On the other hand, the old Virginia range at Rob Ritchie's was pretty honest. There was a hole at 600-700 yards you had to watch, but otherwise, both mirage and wind could be read. Never shot 1,000 yards west of Iowa, so I have no idea about those ranges.

Maybe there are visible clues at Sacramento that let you "not make a big mistake" for 12 targets. I'll guarantee you there wasn't such a clue at Hawks Ridge. Not making a mistake wouldn't work, somebody was going to shoot small.

Equipment matters more when you have to shoot small. It becomes a larger part of the needed skill set.

One thing I do find a bit galling -- and admittedly, I do it too -- is trying to get other people's opinions on what matters and what doesn't. Sometimes it is a real time and money saver. Other times it is just being lazy, and invites *testimonials* that for one reason or another, are not appropriate.

As far a case weight goes, get some cases of different capacity and shoot over a chrono. What does the data say? If you're going to use group size rather than a chrono, better use a blind test. Have a buddy hand you the ammo so you don't know what you're shooting.

Always consider the context. For example, does anybody really think that the Dasher has the same parameters as the .300 Ackley? Really? You must have skipped basic arithmetic. Plus/minus .1 grain of powder is a different animal when the case holds 40 grains of powder, as oppose to 100 grains. Set the chrono up well, and use it. This isn't point-blank competition.

 

[4Mesh]

Well I for one would be interested in what BASE to OgV measurements mean exactly.

It's a primary datum that is the only thing you can count on, (if the bullets all came from the same die), and is the indicator if they did not.

You want all of your bullets as ballisticaly uniform as is possible.If your extreme spread was zero the vertical seen at the target would be the ballistic variation between bullets plus some dispersion from the wind.

Along with the errors in the gun, bags, bench, shooter, reloading bench, etc. But yes, essentially true.

Vaughn's book describes early on that 5 errors of x size does not create 5x groups. This is pretty simple. If you are not seeing errors in the bullets, then you have too many other errors to find it. He also tells you how to find that as well... Not that it was anything new.

There's a host of guys on forums saying they point bullets, trim bullets, etc, and all of them are convinced it helps. No doubt, done right, I'd agree. If they can modify the bullet and make it "More" consistent, would it not stand to reason you could let them alone, measure and sort?

The only way you can get away with not sorting bullets in stiff competition, is if someone already sorted them for you. Maybe they were hand made and don't need sorted. Otherwise, if anyone else is actually doing their homework, you loose.

I have not shot in CA either, but I've shot enough places to know, ranges are ranges. Some are better, some are worse, but they all have a personality. I've shot on rolling hills ranges, mountain ranges, ranges that were flat as a pancake; I've never seen one that anyone could "Read" and beat the people who shoot fast. You might wait and pick a better time to shoot, ok. You might even fall in a bucket of ___ and come out smelling like a rose for score too. Not any fault of your own. Usually that doesn't happen.

1000 yards of switching winds, and someone reads it. I have to leave this thread...

 

[mike in co]

well the last match i was at, the guy reading the wind, won 2 of four spots(an ibs match). one of only 2 or 3 with flags out. the rest used the range flags......way to high to be of use in my opinion. lovely colorado with 20 plus tail winds at the bench that did switch as they moved to the targets.

mike in co

 

[Charles E]

well the last match i was at, the guy reading the wind, won 2 of four spots(an ibs match). one of only 2 or 3 with flags out. the rest used the range flags......way to high to be of use in my opinion. lovely colorado with 20 plus tail winds at the bench that did switch as they moved to the targets.

mike in co

Fine. Now you know what you will do.

 

[jerryhm]

(1000 yards of switching winds, and someone reads it. I have to leave this thread... )

4Mesh time for you to leave the thread ------ Yes I DO read switching winds at 1000 yards. 10s of thousands of rounds out of an iron sighted palma rifle is how you learn to read 1000 yard winds. Not uncommon to make multi-minute windage changes on every shot at Sacramento.

This is my LAST post on this forum.

Good by and good shooting to all.

Jerry Tierney

 

[4Mesh]

4Mesh time for you to leave the thread ------ Yes I DO read switching winds at 1000 yards. 10s of thousands of rounds out of an iron sighted palma rifle is how you learn to read 1000 yard winds. Not uncommon to make multi-minute windage changes on every shot at Sacramento.

This is my LAST post on this forum.

Good by and good shooting to all.

Jerry Tierney

I see!

And the competitors who do NOT adjust 2 minutes shot to shot, their consecutive shots are 2' apart eh? Unless, that wind is only ever at your bench and you just read it real good.

Ah, and, this is learned by shooting with iron sights... Hmmm, while looking at a target, you can perceive everything going on in the air for 1000 yards of depth, do the math, and adjust in real time...

With ammo that has a half minute of vertical before it goes bang...

Ok Jerry, I'm just gonna say it.

BULL____ (edit, it took out what I wrote, but I bet even you can guess what it was)

bs, bs, bs... Who do you think you are kidding?

If you have all these people snowed into believing this crap, and everyone else there also aims all over hell as they shoot, it's no wonder nobody shoots small.

 

[mike in co]

4 mesh...may we see some of your results with your method ?
we have seen jerry's...it seem to work for him.

remmeber i am new to 1000yd...so am just asking for support of your position.
thanks
mike in co

 

[JMC]

Jerry, sad to see you go as you have a wealth of information to share and we have a lot to learn. Keep in mind, no offense to any shooters on the board but this is typically what happens when a world class shooter posts and everyone seems to want to doubt and challenge your position instead of having a decent conversation. I have shoot with Jerry and he is a top, tough competitor and very hard to beat at 600 or 1000 yds and there is a great feeling of accomplishment when you have an opportunity to out shoot Jerry but they are far and few between.

4mesh

And the competitors who do NOT adjust 2 minutes shot to shot, their consecutive shots are 2' apart eh?

Couldn’t have said it better and the short answer is yes and possibly 4 feet and off the target if your not paying attention.

With ammo that has a half minute of vertical before it goes bang...
BULL____ (edit, it took out what I wrote, but I bet even you can guess what it was)
bs, bs, bs... Who do you think you are kidding?

Kidding? All Kidding aside, yes it is learned with Iron Sights the other very good wind reader we have is Bob Hoppe another transplant form the world of Palma and is an extremely tough competitor when he is at our matches. There is something to say about shooting tens of thousands of rounds in a rifle with iron sights that you have to adjust the sights each shot and cannot hold off. Jerry and Bob both can read and handle the wind.

If you have all these people snowed into believing this crap, and everyone else there also aims all over hell as they shoot, it's no wonder nobody shoots small.

Nobody out here is snowed over by Jerry at all, we shoot in Sac and know just how tough it can be. It is obvious that you believe we are feeble minded or as you said snowed over, problem is we don’t get snow in Sacramento, and maybe that’s the reason we shoot large groups.

You would be very welcome to come out to Sacramento, maybe in the middle of summer and show all of us that are snowed how it is done. There is a wealth of information to be shared and you could very well teach and school all of us on what happens if you are not compensating for the wind with each shot. I personally would welcome a shooter of your caliber to come out and join us, as I do understand you are a very good shooter, that is not a smart comment as I have heard you are a very good shooter.

Next maybe we can go to a match in Reno where the 1000 yrd National Champion was shooting a 338 Lapua improved launching 300 gr bullets and won the whole match. Why? He was the only competitor at the Nationals that was able to keep all of his shots on paper, forget the group size as the groups where the 42” square target. Or one might say he won by default since all of the other competitors dropped most of their shots off the target. 4mesh Please come out and show us how you can disregard the wind and shoot small groups as I am sure we would all welcome the wealth of knowledge to share that you have.

In closing please do not go off on another rant like you did about Jerry and shooting in the wind. All that shows is you have nothing constructive to say, cannot carry on a decent conversation and get loud and obnoxious to make your point heard and really do not have a decent objective as to why it is not possible. This should be a gentleman’s board and we should be above belittling others on the board and share ideas more constructively.

John

 

[Greg Culpepper]

4 mesh...may we see some of your results with your method ?
we have seen jerry's...it seem to work for him.

remmeber i am new to 1000yd...so am just asking for support of your position.
thanks


mike in co

Mike,

Phil is a terrific shooter, just as Jerry is. They come out of different shooting environments and have different skill sets and perspectives as a result. Jerry's set works pretty good when the wind is howling and Phil's works great when things are more subdued as is typical at Williamsport or Virginia where he shoots. Both have learned what it takes to get it done where they shoot. Phil might be lost at Sacramento but likewise Jerry's casual approach to ammo precision would likely cost him dearly back here in the east with our more moderate conditions. Just so you know, I watched Phil shoot an IBS light gun group record at Quantico a few years back. Phil was the only one at the match that was indifferent. He wasn't even going to have the target submitted because it was only five shots and didn't mean much to him as ten shots make a light gun target at Williamsport, his home club. Phil walks the walk. He is no keyboard cowboy.

Greg

PS, Thinking back I seem to recall that Phil's target was a 50 and a score record as well. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong about that.

 

[vinny]

Mike,

Phil is a terrific shooter, just as Jerry is. They come out of different shooting environments and have different skill sets and perspectives as a result. Jerry's set works pretty good when the wind is howling and Phil's works great when things are more subdued as is typical at Williamsport or and Virginia where he shoots. Both have learned what it takes to get it done where they shoot. Phil might be lost at Sacramento but likewise Jerry's casual approach to ammo precision would likely cost him dearly back here in the east with our more moderate conditions. Just so you know, I watched Phil shoot an IBS light gun group record at Quantico a few years back. Phil was the only one at the match that was indifferent. He wasn't even going to have the target submitted because it was only five shots and didn't mean much to him as ten shots make a light gun target at Williamsport, his home club. Phil walks the walk. He is no keyboard cowboy.

Greg



SUBDUED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I would hardly call the conditions at Williamsport "subdued". I've been shooting there for 4 years, 20 matches a year, 10 LG and 10 HG thats 80 matches and I can count on one hand conditions that were shooter friendly.

 

[milanuk]

Just curious, and since we are already *way* off topic at this point... why is it that it seems most BR shooters don't believe in 'reading the wind' the way most HP and F-Class shooters do? If you have no choice but to 'pick' your shots instead of 'running' one condition window...

 

[Greg Culpepper]

Hey Vinny,

Didn't mean to disparage the challenges at "The Original 1000 Yard Benchrest Club". I've been plenty challenged there myself. In a contest of "My range is tougher than your range" I'm confidant that Williamsport and Hawks Ridge would be elbow to elbow and near the front. But if Sacramento's reputation is deserved (I've no reason to believe it's not) then it's a whole different kettle of fish. Every range has its own personality and as a consequence is likely to reward a variation or outright change in strategy.

Best regards to you and all the folks in PA.

Greg

 

[Greg Culpepper]

Just curious, and since we are already *way* off topic at this point... why is it that it seems most BR shooters don't believe in 'reading the wind' the way most HP and F-Class shooters do? If you have no choice but to 'pick' your shots instead of 'running' one condition window...

Hey Monte,

If targets are scored between shots as in the NRA games you have an enforced shot cadence of 15-20 seconds. Many benchrest shooters look for the rhythm of the wind and rip their shots downrange in the time it takes for your F-Class target to go down and come back up, hopefully while a condition holds.

Greg

 

[milanuk]

Greg,

I understand that... but I've seen a number of remarks over the years (several of them from 4Mesh) more or less stating that its 'impossible' to read the wind the way HP/F-Class shooters claim to.

I realize that everyone's opinions are colored by their experiences... up thread a ways someone mentioned that they didn't know of a reliable wind indicator @ Hawk's Ridge. I know of at least one HP range out here (Douglas Ridge) where I might as well bring a friggin' ouija board as look at flags/mirage for all the good it does me. Other ranges (Rattlesnake Mountain)... you damn well better learn to 'read' the wind if you want to even stay on the paper some days. Whether a person can 'read' the wind within an inch or two @ 1k for a world record BR group might be debatable... but in general terms it seems to be a fairly handy skill.

Monte

 

[Charles E]

I imagine it is pointless by this time, everybody's locked into their position, or has taken their red wagons & gone home . . .

I watched the World F-Class championships when they were at Butner. Some impressive shooting. It just isn't what I'm use to shooting.

Usually, in the IBS 2-targets-for-HG Nationals, the winning agg will be just over a flat 5 inches -- say, a 6 and a 4, or a 6 and a 5. In Iowa (2005), it was two 4s.The latter is significantly under .5 MOA. And 2nd and 3rd place etc. aren't in the 10-inch region. They'll be within 1/10 MOA of what wins. Somebody's always lurking . . .

Y'all hold for that? Or to stay on topic just a bit, if you're not careful about your bullets, do you think they're up to that? You may not have to sort, but they better be pretty consistent.

And two 10-shot groups that average .5 MOA at 1,000 yards, isn't, in my book, "not making a big mistake." It' small.

Now if it blows like hell in Sacramento, and you're shooting 6 or 12 targets, that could be a different story. What kind of aggs are you guys talking about for winning the NBRSA Nationals at Sacramento?

 

[Greg Culpepper]

Greg,

I understand that... but I've seen a number of remarks over the years (several of them from 4Mesh) more or less stating that its 'impossible' to read the wind the way HP/F-Class shooters claim to.

Monte, we both know that LR Score shooters do read wind. Chasing the spotter will bite you on the butt. Think back to back 7's, one at 9 and one at 3. Been there, got the shirt(s). Last year I had the privilage to shoot at the US Palma Development Team tryouts at Butner. Near the end, Emil put me behind the team scope with a headset so I could watch mirage while listening to all the coaches calling the wind and see the results form on the shooters targets. I learned more about wind reading in 20 minutes than I had in 10 years of LR BR. That was just after a very charming and talented young coach named Sherri wound my windage knob and allowed me to shoot a personal best 200/12x with Sierra tugboats. What a day! Someone with Jerry's LR score experience and skill can make hold-off decisions on the fly and make it work in blustery conditions in BR. Recently, Sam Hall broke his own 600 yd group record at Piedmont in the 0.6" range by holding off an inch on the last shot. Now that's 600 not 1K and Sam shoots with flags and he's undisputedly at the top of his game but most would agree that this was a bold move. By stark contrast, 90% of the time (in BR) when I hold off my shots seem to go right where I was holding and not where I hoped they would land.

I realize that everyone's opinions are colored by their experiences... up thread a ways someone mentioned that they didn't know of a reliable wind indicator @ Hawk's Ridge. I know of at least one HP range out here (Douglas Ridge) where I might as well bring a friggin' ouija board as look at flags/mirage for all the good it does me. Other ranges (Rattlesnake Mountain)... you damn well better learn to 'read' the wind if you want to even stay on the paper some days. Whether a person can 'read' the wind within an inch or two @ 1k for a world record BR group might be debatable...

When Pendergraff set the IBS 1k HG group record at Hawks Ridge he ripped off his shots at a blistering pace. He started his string about 45 seconds into the record period. I shot the same relay and began with the fire command. I won the relay for score with shots strung from the x-ring to mid 8-ring at 4 o'clock. Joel's 3.0" record formed in the 8 ring at 4 o'clock, same place that my last shots appear to have landed. I think you can win in blustery conditions by picking or holding off, but it is unlikely that a 1K group record will be produced in tough conditions without catching the condition.

but in general terms it seems to be a fairly handy skill.

I think you're right.

Greg

Monte[/QUOTE]