30br-30ppc.....30ppc-30br

I don't know

mwezell said:
I'm sure that Hendrick Motorsports would be happy to share with their competitors whatever they find that works...you know, for the publicity.:rolleyes:---Mike Ezell
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How you could make that leap with what I had to say. I find your comment to be totally out of context. ;)
 
Pete Wass said:
I think you will probably find that the folks who worked on making the stuff earlier spent their own money to do it as well. For one reason or another they 1. never got any recognition for what they had done and 2. Times changed and they quit using what they had discovered.

I'm sorry if you took offense at what I said as it was not directed toward you. That said, all of the Hot Stuff this year has been around for years and we have all just gotten around to using it. Most of us and I include you in those of us, don't have unlimited time and money to work on the equipment we use in out sport. We don't have any Factory Support, as the Pro Race teams do and we don't have the public support they do. Imagine what Hendrick's shops would do with Benchrest Rifles if they were being paid by say, Remington to win a few matches!

I first heard about the 30 BR in 1999 or so when I first got involved in Benchrest . Back then Randy Robinette had done all the work and had developed the standard that most of the reamers are made to. Some of us up here in Maine started using them in 2000. They have come to dominate Score Shooting in spite of all the Nay Sayers. We weren't the only ones shooting and working with them back then either. Ergo my comments.
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To add to Pete's comments, the .308X1.5 has been around for decades, and its virtually the same as the 30BR. The obvious differences being the small rifle primers and shoulder angle, but the concept is the same. Cast bullet shooters have been using this cartridge as well as the 30BR for many moons in their quest for the ultimate in lead bullet shooting. The 30BR would never have become a BR cartridge if it hadn't been for the slow twist 30 caliber barrels being made. That's what brought it out of the closet, so to speak. Speaking of slow twist barrels, how slow can we go? Jackie, being that you shoot in a warmer climate for the most part, I'd urge you to try something a little slower than you've been talking about. As Randy has said, the numbers support a 19 twist for .925" jackets. I'm here to tell you that you can go slower than that with .925's, as well as bullets made on 1" jackets...One day I plan on finding out just how slow I can go. I've got a Bartlein that starts out at a 28" twist, and finishes at 19". For every 3 inches i chop off the barrel, the twist at the muzzle slows down an inch. Right now it's at 20 at the muzzle, and it flat out shoots. I can take 3 more inches off twice, and still be legal. I'm not gonna start hacking on it anytime soon, but eventually it'll be crowned at a final twist of 22". I'm betting it will still shoot the .925's...
 
Pete Wass said:
How you could make that leap with what I had to say. I find your comment to be totally out of context. ;)
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Pete, I'm terribly sorry if I offended you or was out of line with my post. I felt like your "publicity" remark was pointed as well. I enjoy this forum and the wealth of info that it offers. I also love what I do and love the sport of BR shooting. The 30 Major may not be a new concept at all, but it is new in that before the 6.5 grendel cases were available it wasn't a viable option. Now with quality lapua brass for the Grendel, all one has to do is neck it up to 30 and screw a barrel chambered for the 30 Major or Grendel or whatever, on and they have a wonderful combination for shooting score matches with their 6ppc rifle and thier new 30 cal barrel. That to me makes it a worthwhile cartridge and I hope that the information that I give about it is appreciated by someone on here. There does seem to be a lot of interest in the concept and why wouldn't there be? It just makes sense and it works. Now..if I get any recognition or publicity from that, that's fine. Others may have tried it or something very near it but most haven't offered the input that I am trying to make available.It could open the door to many more shooters to get back into shooting BR without the expense of a whole new rig. If it helps the sport, then I'd be very proud of that. Again, I'm very sorry if I offended you. Thanks to Wilbur and to this forum for giving us a place to share and find information related to this sport.---Mike Ezell
 
...We don't have any Factory Support....paid by say, Remington to win a few matches!
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Why would they - We won't even recognize a Factory Class.
 
My intent

AVanGorder said:
Why would they - We won't even recognize a Factory Class.
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was simply to point out that if the industry got serious, there are resources that would trump all of ours and to the max. None of the makers of the stuff we use are ever gonna spend any big money on supporting the sports for the products they make. They don't need to, not the BIGS anyway.
 
Hal

I just recieved a new Krieger 1-18 LV blank. I hope to get it chambered up and on the Rifle so perhaps I can see what it does this week end..........jackie
 
Industry, schmindustry

Pete Wass said:
was simply to point out that if the industry got serious, there are resources that would trump all of ours and to the max. None of the makers of the stuff we use are ever gonna spend any big money on supporting the sports for the products they make. They don't need to, not the BIGS anyway.
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True BR is not about the corporate involvement. This as close to true amateur sports as you can get. If there is any corporate entry into what we do, it will pretty much screw it up
 
I hear what you're saying, Pete. I also think we'll see things change.

Adrian
 
I think

mwezell said:
Pete, I'm terribly sorry if I offended you or was out of line with my post. I felt like your "publicity" remark was pointed as well. I enjoy this forum and the wealth of info that it offers. I also love what I do and love the sport of BR shooting. The 30 Major may not be a new concept at all, but it is new in that before the 6.5 grendel cases were available it wasn't a viable option. Now with quality lapua brass for the Grendel, all one has to do is neck it up to 30 and screw a barrel chambered for the 30 Major or Grendel or whatever, on and they have a wonderful combination for shooting score matches with their 6ppc rifle and thier new 30 cal barrel. That to me makes it a worthwhile cartridge and I hope that the information that I give about it is appreciated by someone on here. There does seem to be a lot of interest in the concept and why wouldn't there be? It just makes sense and it works. Now..if I get any recognition or publicity from that, that's fine. Others may have tried it or something very near it but most haven't offered the input that I am trying to make available.It could open the door to many more shooters to get back into shooting BR without the expense of a whole new rig. If it helps the sport, then I'd be very proud of that. Again, I'm very sorry if I offended you. Thanks to Wilbur and to this forum for giving us a place to share and find information related to this sport.---Mike Ezell
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We appreciate others offering other solutions to things but some of us have been at this for quite a few years. We have all the trappings for the 30 BR and are satisfieed with what they give us. It's not that we have no appreciation for an alternative but some of us don't see any benefit to be gained by making a change for the sake of change. I have gone down that road and never reaped any dividends from it. Perhaps if I were starting out and was astute enough to look at all the offings available, I would opt for something different but I am content with what I have right now. What you are pointing out is a good way to go but many of us are locked in and too old to change.

What is even more interesting is most of my work is not with the 30 BR. I have been shooting HBR cases most of the time for most of my BR career so far. I have two 30 BR rifles and a third being made but My heart is truly elsewhere. My being a lot Irish has a lot to do with the corners I seem to paint myself into! :p
 
Pete Wass said:
We appreciate others offering other solutions to things but some of us have been at this for quite a few years. We have all the trappings for the 30 BR and are satisfieed with what they give us. It's not that we have no appreciation for an alternative but some of us don't see any benefit to be gained by making a change for the sake of change. I have gone down that road and never reaped any dividends from it. Perhaps if I were starting out and was astute enough to look at all the offings available, I would opt for something different but I am content with what I have right now. What you are pointing out is a good way to go but many of us are locked in and too old to change.

What is even more interesting is most of my work is not with the 30 BR. I have been shooting HBR cases most of the time for most of my BR career so far. I have two 30 BR rifles and a third being made but My heart is truly elsewhere. My being a lot Irish has a lot to do with the corners I seem to paint myself into! :p
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I know what you mean about that Irish blood.--Mike Ezell:)
 
keep an open mind....

jackie schmidt said:
I just recieved a new Krieger 1-18 LV blank. I hope to get it chambered up and on the Rifle so perhaps I can see what it does this week end..........jackie
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Jackie,
Keep an open mind to allow ALL possibilities. Faster is good too....:eek:
Hunter guns of the 30 cal flavor often use a 14 twist.
David
 
My first30BR

David Apple said:
Jackie,
Keep an open mind to allow ALL possibilities. Faster is good too....:eek:
Hunter guns of the 30 cal flavor often use a 14 twist.
David
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barrel, almost 10 years ago, was a 1-14 Hart. It shot so well it was scary. Made me think I was actually pretty good. Next barrel was a 1-17 Lilja that betterd the first. Head swelled again. Third barrel put me back into a normal hat size!

The one thing the slow twist barrels do, vs. the 1-14, is lower the rifle recoil torque and "violence" in the bag. The slower twist barrels just seem to float straight back without all the Irish jig contortions. They are accurate and more forgiving in the bags for the bullets most seem to shoot(.925 or 1" jacket offerings). This is a big plus to me shooting free recoil with my VFS gun.

I have a 1-15 Shilen on my Hunter gun and it shoots as accurately as any slow twist I've had. I hold onto that on howerver. --Greg
 
Yesterday

at the range I shot some 100g 30 cal bullets I have had a few years but haven't shot many of them. They worked great in the rifle Greg just spoke of but through a 1-17 barrel. The bullets measures .882' in length and is a 7 ogive I think. I shot a three shot series of them through my first BR rifle yesterday. The rifle is a Rem 700 in an older McMillin stock. It has a Bell 1-15 twist barrel on it which has been set back and is now only 19" in length. The groups from the series went like any of them do. When I got to .015 in the hole measures .425. This was shot using a 6x scope and in a fairly brisk swirling wind. The blind hog was present I guess but my point here is tiny bullets will shoot well in a fast twist barrel. I wish Kenny Bell was still making barrels. :(
 
Pete..

Pete Wass said:
at the range I shot some 100g 30 cal bullets I have had a few years but haven't shot many of them. They worked great in the rifle Greg just spoke of but through a 1-17 barrel. The bullets measures .882' in length and is a 7 ogive I think. I shot a three shot series of them through my first BR rifle yesterday. The rifle is a Rem 700 in an older McMillin stock. It has a Bell 1-15 twist barrel on it which has been set back and is now only 19" in length. The groups from the series went like any of them do. When I got to .015 in the hole measures .425. This was shot using a 6x scope and in a fairly brisk swirling wind. The blind hog was present I guess but my point here is tiny bullets will shoot well in a fast twist barrel. I wish Kenny Bell was still making barrels. :(
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sell it!!
 
Save yer $$$, Hal - "been there, done that, got he results . . ."

Hal D. said:
To add to Pete's comments, the .308X1.5 has been around for decades, and its virtually the same as the 30BR. The obvious differences being the small rifle primers and shoulder angle, but the concept is the same. Cast bullet shooters have been using this cartridge as well as the 30BR for many moons in their quest for the ultimate in lead bullet shooting. The 30BR would never have become a BR cartridge if it hadn't been for the slow twist 30 caliber barrels being made. That's what brought it out of the closet, so to speak. Speaking of slow twist barrels, how slow can we go? Jackie, being that you shoot in a warmer climate for the most part, I'd urge you to try something a little slower than you've been talking about. As Randy has said, the numbers support a 19 twist for .925" jackets. I'm here to tell you that you can go slower than that with .925's, as well as bullets made on 1" jackets...One day I plan on finding out just how slow I can go. I've got a Bartlein that starts out at a 28" twist, and finishes at 19". For every 3 inches i chop off the barrel, the twist at the muzzle slows down an inch. Right now it's at 20 at the muzzle, and it flat out shoots. I can take 3 more inches off twice, and still be legal. I'm not gonna start hacking on it anytime soon, but eventually it'll be crowned at a final twist of 22". I'm betting it will still shoot the .925's...
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Hal, for FB bullets, based upon the 0.925" long jackets, I strongly recommend AGAINST using anything slower than a 1:20" twist - that rate will keep the Sg just at a healthy 1.4. There are NO goodies to be had via a slower twist, and below 1.4, precision begins to errode. A true 1:19" twist, at sea-level and standard atmospheric conditions, and 3000 FPS MV, will impart 1.5 Sg.

Way before the 30 BRs, we messed with these Sg numbers via our HUNTER Rifles :eek:: that is, we PAID to have the barrels made - as slow as 1:20" - and tested them with varying bullet LENGTHS, but static weights! The math holds up well and mirrors the predicted outcome(s) for various twist rates/bullet LENGTHS. Barrel/bullet combinations producing less than 1.4 Sg will, in clam conditions, shoot, but will make life misirable in the wind! :eek:;)

Ronnie Long suggested using the BR case following a couple of seasons of messing with 30x47 HBR chamberings, which featured 1:18" twist barrels! :eek: You are correct - combined with the "JUST RIGHT" twist/bullet length(s), it has, arguably, proven to be the most [notably] successful adaptation of the 1.5"x.308 case!:D

Greg is correct regarding "over-spinning" - with QUALITY bullets, there is less deterioration of precision, but a greater penalty to pay regarding bag behavior. Of course, the worse the jacket wall run-out, the greater the precision penalty for over spinning - the bag behavior is more subjective, but still, I believe, REAL!:eek: Good shootin'! RG
 
Something I have noticed

while helping change targets and tape backers, there's a lot of key Holes in the backers. Does that say we are running our bullets on the ragged edge of stability when target paper and cardboard backers will turn them sideways?
 
Pete Wass said:
while helping change targets and tape backers, there's a lot of key Holes in the backers. Does that say we are running our bullets on the ragged edge of stability when target paper and cardboard backers will turn them sideways?
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yes. at longer distances it is more noticable and it is not the paper doing the key holing.
 
Pete

Which way was the keyholing that you observed? If it is up and down then it could be unstable bullets I suppose but if the keyholing is horizontal it may simply be the drag of the wind. Some of the wind that we have had to contend with so far this year could be doing that to a stable bullet. The nose is going to fight to maintain it's course and I have heard some people shooting when my probe was buried as far as it would go. Scoring some of the targets had all the black on the far edge and none on the near side. I take from that that the bullet is not parallel to the line of sight fighting the wind. That effect has nothing to do with stability from twist. Make sense???? Randy J.
 
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