Weighed Charges at The Nationals

jackie schmidt

jackie schmidt

New member
Could not help but notice the number of shooters who are now weighing each charge. Some use those little scales, zeroing it with the case, then adding the powder, others have opted for the RCBS Chargemaster.

We have always said, "if you are in the load window, a 1/10 ot two one way or another doesn't matter". But, considering how many shooters shot quite well, weighing charges, you have to wonder.

As a note, World Champion Gene Bukys, who demolished the 200 yard LV Record, still throws his charges.

Just another observation........jackie
 
But a tenth or two either way, has the possibility of making 4/10.
weighing is really an insurance policy, that you are where you think you are
 
Another Note

I wonder how long it will take for one of the enterprising Benchrest Vendors to contract for a version of the Chargemaster, (or similiar brand), ie a small, compact unit specifically geared to the 100-200 yard crowd.

Or, maybe the small scales that feature the wind cover already have this covered.........jackie
 
I'm just a nobody as most supers know. I weigh first to see if that is what i want, then I drop 15 or 20 charges and weigh again to confirm, if you are consistent your drops will be within a tenth of what you want, just my opinion.:D

Dan Honert

ps: I like crows
 
Last edited:
jackie schmidt said:
I wonder how long it will take for one of the enterprising Benchrest Vendors to contract for a version of the Chargemaster, (or similiar brand), ie a small, compact unit specifically geared to the 100-200 yard crowd.

Or, maybe the small scales that feature the wind cover already have this covered.........jackie
Click to expand...
Jackie, RCBS is already working on a Chargemaster with a battery pack. Those of us reloading in the campers just plug them in.

Many of the guys in the loading shed used automobile battery booster packs of about 500CCA that have a cigarette lighter hole. Then get a Radio Shack cigarette lighter extension chord that has the correct end on it. It outputs 12VDC but the Chargemaster will take up to 16VDC/VAC even though the 110V to 9V adapter comes with them.

Why throw volumetric charges when we all know it is not precise. When a guy has a 0.202" agg and is in 19th place and there are some .14/.15 aggs up at the top why take a chance??
 
Dan

We had several 'challenges' to see just how accurate shooters were. I managed to get 5 shooters, all pretty good at the game, to throw ten charges, weighing each. None could do no better, (to their surprise), than +-2 tenths. That could be a 4 tenths spread, and in a world where shooters are tuning within a 2 tenths window. That sounds like too much.

I have tried every technique I can amagine, and I will get an occasional heavy, or light, charge.

I took my measure over to Billy Stevens Motor home one night, and we had a heads up against his and Bart's Chargemaster. I could throw 8 out of 10 charges within a tenth, but two would always be enough off to cause concern..........jackie
 
Dan H said:
I'm just a nobody as most supers know. I weigh first to see if that is what i want, then I drop 15 or 20 charges and weigh again to confirm, if you are consistent your drops will be within a tenth of what you want, just my opinion.:D

Dan Honert

ps: I like crows
Click to expand...

Dan...I used to think so, but try weighing every charge. I find that charges tend to be thown in strings. Three to five charges will throw high up to .2 grains, usually followed by the same number thrown low. You also get strings thrown at the correct weight. I do believe this only applies to extruded powders like N133. I can usually throw ball powders to the correct weight 90+ per cent of the time.
 
I have seen some 8208 military pulled down powder that contained
what I believe was very small brass particles. Though small, they would
affect the true weight on a chargemaster. would think a measure may
prove a better way with that. A chronograph may answer that question.
 
Bob Kingsbury said:
I have seen some 8208 military pulled down powder that contained
what I believe was very small brass particles. Though small, they would
affect the true weight on a chargemaster. would think a measure may
prove a better way with that. A chronograph may answer that question.
Click to expand...

Bob,

I can't comment on particles in the powder (brass??) but I have a good scale, it weighs to the single kernel of powder (3-5fps) and I shoot thousands of rounds over the chrono...... I can state with absolute certainty that for long range shooting I CANNOT stay in single digit ES with thrown charges. With the scale, single digits is the norm. I believe that I can see the effect of a single kernel of H4350 (there, I said it out loud and in public..... ahhhhhh, relief....)

Primers are huge but amazingly consistent.... as single digit ES will prove.

I've been testing throwing techniques for about 15yrs, two others that have spent a lot of time with it are Boyd Allen and the late Franklin L Murphy. Some like Francis Becigneuel and Al Nyhus will remember the "powder thrower tests" back in the mid 90's. As anyone who cares to test it will find, it's very hard to throw consistent strings and even harder to do it hour to hour, day to day. If we could get Boyd to comment he could share some of the techniques that have worked better than others....... (If we could get Frank to comment I'd go put some odds on something..... MAN I miss that guy! :( )

In My Opinion everyone should try at least twice't or three times to correlate their tune to velocity and load for the center of this "velocity node" for a few days.

Jim Borden should comment on this :cool:

His opinion means something.

al
 
Jackie I hear

what you are saying by weighing charges. The next thing we will need more time to load unless one HAS a RCBS chargemaster.

I am seeing the trend of going backwards to the old days the way things were done back then and all this new fandangled technology going by the wayside.

I would like to know what the Hall of Fame leader does?

Calvin
 
For those that wish to try weighing their loads, and do not wish to invest in a Chargemaster, I have a suggestion. For a little time, and material, you can do as I did (Actually my friend Ed Hellam did it for me, to my design), some time ago. Build a scale wind box for your balance scale, that features a vertically sliding glass front cover, and a trickler that has its handle extending, through a closely fitting hole, throughthe side of the box. It works like this. You throw a light charge into the scale pan, slide the front cover up with one hand, place the pan on the scale with the other, lower the cover, trickle the remainder of the charge, raise the cover, and dump the charge into a funnel. With practice, this can be done about as quickly as the Chargemaster, and the whole thing can be built for about $30, assuming you already have the scale and trickler. As to measure technique, that is a whole article, but I will say that more than one Benchrest shooter has said that my way works better than his previous technique.
 
Boyd Allen said:
As to measure technique, that is a whole article......
Click to expand...

I can attest to this! :)

Boyd has done a BUNCH of work in this area and due to his guidance my technique has changed over the last several years.

I spend a lot of time throwing "under weight" and adding kernels to make weight on my MMC 123 scale, some days are diamonds, some days are stone. I'll comment that for ME the most consistent throws are the result of slow and gentle throws using a Harrell measure. If this doesn't work I'll switch to a technique (adapted from Boyd) called "triple stroking."

or visey varsey.......

al
 
Calvin

I doubt you will ever see things "go back". Far too many top rank shooters are now weighing charges.

As for the time thing, as long as there are three relays, there is plenty of time for everything. It's the one and two relay matches where Range Officers start calling shooters to the line before the allocated 30 minutes has elapsed.

I know every body wants to get finished,and get on the road, but the Rules do say that shooters are allowed 30 minutes between relays. If the Range Officers adhere to this, there is little problem........jackie
 
Dillon

Jackie, I have been using my Dillon scale for 4 years now weighing every charge. All you need is AA batteries. The cover that is provided is the secret.
RCBS is very good but for the thrifty the Dillon is an exceptional scale that fits into your loading box.
Centerfire :)
 
2-Cents from a Newbie

In the 2 years I've been participating in this addiction, I've watched the slow but steady increase in folks using the Chargemaster at matches. For what it is worth, the majority of excellent shooters in my region (Ocock, Libby, Murdica, Nielson, Bruno, Miller, etc) still throw their charges. I think one of the reasons folks are using the Chargemaster or weighing charges is the popularity of 133. When I started in benchrest, 133 was the only powder I could get readily. As you know, it is a longer "stick" powder and I was always cutting when I was throwing charges and the weights were inconsistent.

I've since got some 8208 and I'm able to throw charges much more consistently than with 133. I've also been experimenting with 748 and it throws like a dream. It will be interesting to see how the new 8208 will throw when it becomes available. Lou Murdica and others that have been using it tell me it throws very well.

Below is a photo I took of Tony's loading area during the 2008 Nationals at Ben Avery. It appears he has a digital scale and that he was weighing his charges - or at least checking them periodically.

DSC00998.jpg
 
jackie schmidt said:
We had several 'challenges' to see just how accurate shooters were. I managed to get 5 shooters, all pretty good at the game, to throw ten charges, weighing each. None could do no better, (to their surprise), than +-2 tenths. That could be a 4 tenths spread, and in a world where shooters are tuning within a 2 tenths window. That sounds like too much.

I have tried every technique I can amagine, and I will get an occasional heavy, or light, charge.

I took my measure over to Billy Stevens Motor home one night, and we had a heads up against his and Bart's Chargemaster. I could throw 8 out of 10 charges within a tenth, but two would always be enough off to cause concern..........jackie
Click to expand...

Jackie

I guess i should have added that if a charge feels wrong then I will dump that case and drop a few charges into the jug then start over weighing first. I have gotten into a routine that seems to work for me. I try to bump the top the same all the time count 2,3 then slowly drop the charge with a double tap at the bottom, seems to work for me but, I'm not a world class shooter by any means.
How did those Chargemasters do? With the upper window that you like to shoot have you ever tried to get a weighed charge into the case after dumping it into a pan? Whenever I try that it seems like there is more powder going in than just came out of the case.
Maybe that is how Johnnie Stewart shot that .047 at Unaka in July he uses a Chargemaster, and I think 8208 which meters nicer.

Dan Honert
 
Dan H said:
Jackie

I guess i should have added that if a charge feels wrong then I will dump that case and drop a few charges into the jug then start over weighing first. I have gotten into a routine that seems to work for me. I try to bump the top the same all the time count 2,3 then slowly drop the charge with a double tap at the bottom, seems to work for me but, I'm not a world class shooter by any means.
How did those Chargemasters do? With the upper window that you like to shoot have you ever tried to get a weighed charge into the case after dumping it into a pan? Whenever I try that it seems like there is more powder going in than just came out of the case.
Maybe that is how Johnnie Stewart shot that .047 at Unaka in July he uses a Chargemaster, and I think 8208 which meters nicer.

Dan Honert
Click to expand...
Dan...if you are loading very hot you have to either pour the powder very slowly from the pan or get a funnel with a long drop tube. Sinclair has such a funnel.

I have tried tapping at the top and bottom of my stroke, and I still get the variations...usually worse. I've found it to be most consistent using a slow stroke to the top followed by a slow stroke to the bottom. The only reason I still drop powder occasionally is because I only use my ChargeMaster when I'm loading in my trailer. I have a small digital scale for other times. In those situations I tare each case, drop the powder and weigh the charged case. If it's over I pour a little powder out. If it's low I start over. If it's right on I thank the benchrest gods and move on.

That's how I found the over/under string problem. Many times I've been ready to go postal when I threw the fifth or sixth charge under. Almost invariably when the under string ends I get a string that is over.
 
I thought the bag of prunes

Jeff Welker said:
In the 2 years I've been participating in this addiction, I've watched the slow but steady increase in folks using the Chargemaster at matches. For what it is worth, the majority of excellent shooters in my region (Ocock, Libby, Murdica, Nielson, Bruno, Miller, etc) still throw their charges. I think one of the reasons folks are using the Chargemaster or weighing charges is the popularity of 133. When I started in benchrest, 133 was the only powder I could get readily. As you know, it is a longer "stick" powder and I was always cutting when I was throwing charges and the weights were inconsistent.

I've since got some 8208 and I'm able to throw charges much more consistently than with 133. I've also been experimenting with 748 and it throws like a dream. It will be interesting to see how the new 8208 will throw when it becomes available. Lou Murdica and others that have been using it tell me it throws very well.

Below is a photo I took of Tony's loading area during the 2008 Nationals at Ben Avery. It appears he has a digital scale and that he was weighing his charges - or at least checking them periodically.

DSC00998.jpg
Click to expand...



Was an interesting touch to one's loading area :D
 
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