USA Production Class

19Turkeys said:
Pete,

I am making one really big assumption here and that is that Production entries are competing against Production entries only and not $3,000 FWB/Nightforce equipped rifles. That said, "winning" is not going to be 250x75. I recognize that going in. However, using a Production class rifle does not mean that I can't be competitive IN THAT CLASS. As in IHMSA handgun silhouette competition, I see my biggest competitor as being ME! My goal is to improve.

I played with Wacky Wayne's Marauder last Saturday. There was one thing that I learned, and that is that I have a lot to learn. As I shot a Hunter class Field Target pistol entry that took most of my time, I was only able to shoot through on one card. But, I found it a fun and interesting experience, and I even has a few hits that were 10X! (Then Wayne had to tell me he had hung a 50 meter target instead of a 25 meter target.) :)

We have multiple classes in IHMSA, Production, Unlimited, classes with iron sights and classes with scopes only. Some shooters elect to shoot only specific classes (or disciplines such as AIR only). Others branch out into many of our disciplines. I know some shooters that shoot only Standing events. We do our best to be inclusive and tell potential new shooters that they should not be intimidated by those of us with $3,000 whiz bang pistols, they they should shoot what they have or begin with minimal investment until they decide what they feel most comfortable with. Plus, we understand that not everyone can afford or wants to expend $3,000 on a full custom gun.

There is no reason why this game cannot be as inclusive.

I realize that I am 1 of 1 here (an uninitiated newbie), but all I am really asking is the opportunity to get into this game with minimal outlay.

Steve W.
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There are a few folks out there who only want to be part of it, not many, but there are some. Perhaps I am all wrong but I simply reported on what my life experience has been. I grew up in a world where being the best was important and many people strived to be that. I am not saying it is wrong to be anything else but that hasn't been my experience.
 
Pete Wass said:
There are a few folks out there who only want to be part of it, not many, but there are some. Perhaps I am all wrong but I simply reported on what my life experience has been. I grew up in a world where being the best was important and many people strived to be that. I am not saying it is wrong to be anything else but that hasn't been my experience.
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Hi Pete,

& I will strive to be the best in Production class! :)

Steve W.
 
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Good Points Wilbur,

But if a guy shows up with a gun he's owned and shot for awhile, and wants to see how he does for his first time at Benchrest .... only to be given sort shrift by the "pros" who obviously wouldn't be caught even picking up a gun like his to see its weight, well there's way MORE chance they will never be back, right?

Look, you have been shooting a long time, and so have I. I shot airgun Benchrest back in the mid 90's .... but it never really took off. Its STILL a very small, relatively new sport. I think its healthy for ANY shooters that want to show up with anything safe and give it a whirl. They will know if they like it, and if they want to return. And if they want to try more dedicated equipment, well fine, but even if every bench has a different looking and sounding gun for the next year or two ... well, then there's still time to firm up classes and rules ONCE we find out what folks really want of the game.

I know there is a little clique, or establishment that thinks Airgun Benchrest should be the little sister of Rimfire Benchrest ... but frankly, I see the airgun game as having greater potential. Because of the limitations of airguns, we can shoot at fifty meters and simulate what rimfire guys are seeing when they try 100 meters or perhaps even 120 meters. I know some think that shows how poorly airguns are, but to me, its the STRENGTH of airgunning, since we can have challenges at shorter range and for less cost and effort. But if we stifle ourselves by following the footsteps of the rimfire guys by rote rather than by reason ... I see little future to it.
 
19Turkey,

I think you don't realize Wayne and others mean attracting "new to benchrest shooters", not "new to airguns" shooters. See, there are lots of airgunners out there that already own powerful and accurate airguns, often a stable of them, but if they are to try a new game where you are trying to wring the best you can off a bench from an airgun, isn't it natural to bring your very best rig?

Sure, if a guy has no gun, he shouldn't NEED to buy some ultimate gun that can compete in the Worlds this year just to see if he likes the game, so there should be a place for him even if he has a low-bucks rig that wouldn't actually be very competitive ... but I don't think there needs to be a special class for either of those guys. If they are new, they are new, regardless of the gun they have, and they should be welcomed to shoot first time, every time. Sure, eventually, if they like the game, things will sort out and they may or may not get different guns, but it likely they will at least change or modify some things, and that's a huge part of the fun of it.

Were I to be starting out again, I would try to get the bet USED rig I could, prolly low bucks, and hoot it for awhile as I watched and learned, and, if i stuck with it, I'd trade up a bit t a time.

I personally would only try a "stock class" even with a low prive range if I already owned such a gun, and I'm quite sure I would get bored with it right away unless I could move it into a "modified class" and fiddle with it.
 
Look Bob,
Ultimately, the game only works if folks enjoy it enough to keep coming back. If you have rules that work for your club, its foolhardy to change em in too fast, because you have to see your clubbies all the time, and the outfit here making the rules changes their minds on a daily basis, which might leave you in the lurch on occasion unless you have the sense to adjust to what you know YOUR club wants and needs.

You have been shooting Airgun Benchrest for longer than most and have your finger on the pulse of shooters in your area, so take what you like, and leave what you don't.
 
LD,

Thanks for the comments. The local club I think is first in the mind of most of the Match Directors. The Postal matches especially the International matches just make our world smaller and our ability to test our skills larger. I think that most all are now on board to let the new comers decide the parameters of an enjoyable shooting class, with out spending huge sums of money for fellowship and challenges. It seems that some of our base will be giving the new class a try. It is not the same game we have been playing. Where often a extra points or X's are materially affected by a better rest or barrel or trigger.

Many among us who are used to a twist of a couple of knobs not touching the rifle and curling a finger on a very good trigger. The difference is, being one with the rifle and not the rest. To move from bull to bull with a squeeze and slide of the rear bag. To control muscles and breathing and squeeze some of the worst triggers in the world even after adjustment. Then if you happened to get a decent barrel you must deal with the very limited number of accurate shots from a rifle that is not regulated and gets maybe 20 to 25 shots in the sweet spot and sighters will give you fewer accurate shots and you will have to know when to hold over a little as the pressure drops..

New shooter or those from our current base are going to be shooting a real challenge. In the past, when we learned to shoot at that can that jumped when we hit it and we were hooked on shooting. The chances are pretty good that who ever set the target. put it close enough to be sure we could hit it. I will run the first few matches on the 50 meter target at 25 meters so I can hook em on success. The equipment and the wind will be challenge enough without a target designed for rigs costing 5 times as much then adding an expensive rest to the total.

I was going to suggest in all of this that we just say any rifle without a regulator and without a price limit. That would not have worked out with your innovation of an extreme non regulated rifle.

Good ShootN' to you.

Bob
 
Bob,

My last match, we encouraged shooting off a front bag only, with wood block risers. And on the rear, a bag to support the hand, but not the butt itself ... and we had a lot of fun, even with winds so high the flags blew down a couple times. Though there WERE some USFTS's shooting against Marauders, FX, HW, etc., the setup and winds put the biggest burden on the shooter's skills, not the kind of gun.

I realize with the chilly weather in some parts, folks shoot indoors, so the challenge of wind isn't there, but beleive me, hand hold the bottstock and no mechanical rest up front, and its a new game!

Not to say kool rest setups and nice rear bags aren't the bomb to pull the last bit of precision out of that gun, but its also fun to mix it up a bit. When I saw Dan B. whip out a 250 off a bag sitting on a wooden block at the Worlds, then saw Shane at Az. shoot a Top World class score from a huge beanbag, I realized one can go far with "simple equipment" if you work at it.

So for now we are emphasizing the more simple rests for the short range shooting, and going with the fancier stuff in the fifty yard distance legs.
 
I hope this last page of this thread sums up how we can begin this potential new class.. Mike, Ron, Steve W. and I came together on a trial plan for our local area, and I guess Steve (Cris) is ready to launch it on "Scoreline", so the test begins!..

We'll have "official" scores at serious matches allowing only the $700 limit for scope and .177, .20, or .22 airguns with bags only as listed above, but if someone shows up with a higher priced or .25 cal rig, we'll welcome them with open arms.. If they kick ass.. we'll put em in HV, LV or Open class as necessary, but if they are truly a "newbie" and scores show it.. then put em in "Production" class for awhile to keep them feelin good and coming back... But, keep in mind, the best way to keep em coming back is good food.. lot's of smiles & encouragement, and sharing of info and equipment! .. at least that's what I got and it worked on me about a year ago, now..

Wacky Wayne,
Match Director,
Ashland Air Rifle Range
 
The scope is delivered & the rifle, rings & bags are all on order. We had our monthly fourth Saturday IHMSA air pistol match today, and I discovered that we have at least 2 additional shooters that will be entering the new Production class. Exciting times!

Steve W.
 
19Turkeys said:
Hi Pete,

& I will strive to be the best in Production class! :)

Steve W.
Click to expand...

I'm not opposed to a "production Class". I just personally don't wish to go there even though I have a rifle that fits in the catagory. It will never be a 250 class rifle is all and I won't spend any more money on it trying to make it better. I shot it the other day in the wind @ Titusville. I realized there is a steeper learning curve in a 15 - 20 MP breeze than I had previously thought :)
 
Today was it, my first match in the new Production class. I had acquired a Marauder, BSA 36x fixed power scope, and rings well under the $700 price cap. Ron was kind enough to help me with bag selection and even provided the sand and help to fill them. I had taken the rifle to Wacky Wayne's last Saturday and obtained some rudimentary sight settings (windy enough to blow my hat off I might add!). The match today was indoors; so, the wind factor was not an issue.

Honestly, I had no idea what to expect. I am a 26 year competitor in handgun silhouette, but a total novice with an air rifle. I was considering myself lucky to break into the 200's prior to the match beginning!

I learned quite a bit on my first card regarding holding the rifle, use of bags, etc and was thrilled with a 222 and 2X. Using what I had learned on the first card, my second card score improved to 240 and 6X. I decided to try Ron's Baracuda pellets on the third card which was a mistake. After thirteen targets I realized the rifle did not like them (-15 points and only 1X); so, I switched back to the Air Arms Field Target pellets for the last 12 and shot a -8 and 2X ending up with a 227 and 3X on the third card for a total of 689 and 11X.

Considering that the second card was a 240, I believe the Marauder can be competitive in the Production class.

My overall impression is that (1) I learned quite a bit, (2) I had a ton of fun, (3) I am looking forward to the next match, (4) I think I am going to like this Production class. It is great to be able to shoot with friends and not spend $3,000. In fact, I would not spend $3,000 even though I like my friends.

Thanks to Steve George for having the courage to open the sport up to those of us that would prefer to spend less on equipment. I look forward to many hours of enjoyable shooting.

Steve W.
 
Steve,

The real thanks should go to you, and other shooters, who are willing to give our sport a try, using equipment they are comfortable with. Your scores have set the bar for your next time and the next shooter. Thank you.
 
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Wilbur,

I think you DO belong in the discussion, because your question is an excellent one. I see different personalities that will have various answers, some surprisingly similar at the yes or no level, but much different were it to be expanded.

To some, there is little interest in spending money if they can simply borrow a winning gun, since its the WIN that counts, not the owning or building. To others the winning is also most important, but it needs to be with one's own gun, and ideally, it should be the shiniest, most expensive model with series of smith's names added to it that made it even MORE special. And to others, it must be very inexpensive, but capable "somehow" of beating all the fancy smancy stuff.

There are gonna be some in each class, and that's good ... generally folks will spend to their level of interest, eventually. In this fairly new game, with its very limited attendance, there is room for all types and all budgets. Its really early to try to tie down the equipment and costs based on the input of folks that are more motivated by political than pragmatic ideals, so to me t least I say we shouldn't try to control a budding game so much right at first that it ends up like it did four years ago.

Me personally? Yes, I'd spend good money on an airgun rig, because airgunning is my passion.
 
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While the amateur analysis and profiling might be interesting to some, the objective of this new class is to provide an easy entry into the game and hopefully, everyone will have a good time.

So far, by all accounts, things are on the right track. Thank you to those match directors and shooters for their efforts.
 
Thank you LD for your version of benchrest which as usial does not make any sense. You are so un informed about this sport. The sole purpose of this game is to see how accurate we can make a rifle what ever the class within the rules. If peers want to win step up your game. It is called good sense like actually using your head and healthy competition. That's why we have classes, the sport advances. This may come as a shock to you but this is not a feel good game where you get a EXTRA EFFORT bumper sticker because you competed and lost. There are going to be cherry pickers no matter what the sport. Somebody is by some stroke of luck is going to have a better gun than someone else and if you had one of these little jewels you would not be complaining. Been that way for years. Where you been?

And your shot again at Tod Banks and others that borrow guns to intellegently compete is not cheating as you have suggested. It is the nature of the competitive spirit. Why would a great shooter go to a match to lose? Using your logic you might as well send in your entry fee and stay home. We that truly enjoy the spirit of this sport are not of the same as you that are content to shoot poorly. Your peers seeing the writing on the wall know you are not competitive and have decided not to pay their dues those required to make a champion. Now as an easy way out simply have placed food first and accuracy second. I have seen it in Archery a sport I competed in nationally for years. People so like you who did not shoot well and did not want to pay their dues like all winners do just confess they are in it for the fun. They like you make shakey tables, have a ton of excuses, enlarge targets and say they are benchrest shooters so they can feel good.

Frank
 
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shadowalker said:
Thank you LD for your version of benchrest which as usial does not make any sense. You are so un informed about this sport. The sole purpose of this game is to see how accurate we can make a rifle what ever the class within the rules. If peers want to win step up your game. It is called good sense like actually using your head and healthy competition. The sport advances. This may come as a shock to you but this is not a feel good game where you get a EXTRA EFFORT bumper sticker for your car because you competed and lost. There are going to be cherry pickers no matter what the sport. Somebody is by some stroke of luck is going to have a better gun than someone else. Been that way for years. Where you been?
And your shot again at Tod Banks and others that borrow guns to intellegently compete is not cheating as you have suggested. It is the nature of the competitive spirit. Why would a shooter go to a match to lose? That is why sports have classes. Using your logic you might as well send in your entry fee and stay home. We that truly enjoy the spirit of this sport are not of the same as you that are content to shoot poorly. Your peers seeing the writing on the wall know you are not competitive and have decided not to pay the dues required to make a champion have now as an easy way out placed food first and accuracy second. I have seen it in Archery a sport I competed in nationally for years. People who did not shoot well and did not want to pay their dues like all winners do just confess they are in it for the fun. They like you make shakey tables, have a ton of excuses, enlarge targets and say they are benchrest shooters so they can feel good.

Frank
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Again, Frank you have mis read others comments, and said something that makes no sense at all..

maybe you could reread and try again.. thanks

Wacky Wayne,
Match Director,
Ashland Air Rifle Range
 
Wayne,

This thread was ready to end on a wonderful note and you can see what happened.

It is easy to misinterpret others' comments when they are cloaked in innuendo.

"simply borrow a winning gun, since its the WIN that counts,"

"Its really early to try to tie down the equipment and costs based on the input of folks that are more motivated by political than pragmatic ideals,"

"that it ends up like it did four years ago."

"only to be given sort shrift by the "pros" who obviously wouldn't be caught even picking up a gun like his"

"little clique, or establishment that thinks Airgun Benchrest should be the little sister of Rimfire Benchrest ..."

"stifle ourselves by following the footsteps of the rimfire guys by rote rather than by reason ..."

The above are recent examples. Please let's end this, give me a call.
 
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Cris,

Not sure a call between us will solve the problem of folks not reading carefully... And if one cannot totally understand a comment.. it might be better to ask a question (without accusing baggage attached), before responding with attacking comments.. That's the only way to solve this issue, in my humble opinion..

And.... the old saying... "If you can't say something nice... don't say anything at all"!!

Wacky Wayne
 
Wayne,

I think he did a good job of letting most of us know how he feels about some of the other shooters that don't fit into his box. He's right, I AM in it for the fun ... frankly I hate to think I would NEED to be in it for other reasons than fun. Sure, I have MORE fun when I win, but I have ENOUGH fun even when I don't. I really feel bad for those that NEED to win so bad its not worth shooting if they don't.

I imagine looking at all the guys that didn't win a match at its end, and would be saddened at the thought of some being totally disappointed and disgusted for not winning. I know there is only ONE overall winner, and all the rest are losers when that sort of attitude is taken, but for me, I mostly am just trying to do as well as I can, and with or without a trophy, I know when I've done better or worse even before seeing the scores of others, since I know how I felt as I broke those shots.
 
Congratulations LD you just proved what I have been saying all along.................This is Benchrest WHICH YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND, not can shooting or a BBQ.
Here we push the limits on everything and strive for excellence within the boundries set by the rules and regulations of the governing body.We as a race are severly competitive in nature. Why should this sport be anything different? It was founded to advance accuracy not promote feeling good. We all have a learning curve and it is part of how we as young aspiring shooters got from point A to point B and became champions. We do not change our targets because they are too small. We learn to shoot better. It IS about the winning Sir. How do you excell by coming in SIXTH every time? You don't. You have to change something. There always will be two kinds of shooters those called participants and those called winners.....WINNERS ARE WINNERS BECAUSE THEY SIMPLY KNOW SOMETHING YOU DO NOT The decision is up to the individual shooter as to where he wants to be and how much of whatever he wants to expend to get there. But please do not come over here and lecture us that know better about our sport. We got it where it is today all by ourselves without you. We have exceptional accuracy where up to now you had none. WE BECAME THE BEST SHOOTERS IN THE WORLD using not a single piece of Yellow Forum or LD logic, mostly rimfire expertise. We learn from each other and advance the sport AND here is the thing you are not going to believe .....Some even had 3 inch forends.

One can easly see how much progress your way of thinking and methods produced simply by looking at the history of air gunning. You were a major player in this sport and participated in 30 plus years of sub standard methods and accuracy. This folly was surpassed in only two years by benchrest shooters that DO like to win. Obviously two different types of motovation and thinking. There is a message here for those of us who are "in the box " but think outside it. We are those that did not drink the Kool-Aide and know how to read..

Frank
 
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