USA Production Class

RE: Production Class

First a bit of background. I have competed in International Handgun Metallic Silhouette Association handgun matches since 1984 and helped write the IHMSA rules governing air pistol silhouette when it was sanctioned in 2001. Prior to 2001 my only air gun experience was with a Daisy Red Ryder as a kid. I have been competing in air pistol silhouette since it was sanctioned. I do not own an air rifle.

Wacky Wayne Burns introduced me to Field Target in 2011, and I have been shooting it in Ashland, OR using a Crosman Marauder pistol in hunter class and competed in Wayne's Western States Regional held here in Grants Pass, OR in 2011 and will compete in the FT Nationals this year.

I have not even considered air rifle BR due to the fact that I refuse to spend the $3,000 to $4,000 necessary to be competitive.

That said, I would certainly shoot air rifle BR IF this proposed Production class is sanctioned. I offer the following regarding the proposed rules.

1. IHMSA made a huge mistake when it allowed major modifications to Production pistols including after market sights. Keep Production Production.
2. Price caps will work, but be reasonable. IHMSA realized that there are not major differences between air pistols when it comes to barrel length, overall length, weight, etc. The differences are in the price tag. Thus, a Production air pistol is one with an MSRP of $375. This price cap is reviewed every two years by our board of directors and adjusted as necessary. The $375 cap was not arbitrary, but set to allow a Crosman 1701P to compete in Production class.

Concerning the rules for this proposed class, keep it simple. Determine what setup would be the maximum quality of rifle/scope setup allowed in this class. As an example, the MSRP of a .177 caliber Marauder is $510. At a price cap of $600, this leaves only $90 for a scope & rings. I would think a Marauder would be a rifle that a significant percentage of shooters would look to. Thus, a price cap of $700 would seem reasonable to me. This should allow a decent scope/ring setup for the rifle.

I disagree that a Production class will not bring in new shooters. Sanctioning air pistol silhouette has allowed my club to grow significantly. We have a whole new class of shooter that has taken to air pistol silhouette like ducks to water. Not only will this bring in new shooters, but it will also allow current shooters to compete in a new discipline.

I certainly hope that this rule proposal is passed as I will be competing.

Yours,

Steve W.
 
Cris,
I put this question out to a mix of air benchrest and air silhouette shooters. The Silhouette Match Director told me if the Marauder could get in ($650 limit), he would join us. That's without trying. If the Production class becomes official I will send out an invitation via our mother club newsletter (multi gun/archery disciplines) that reaches around 1200 members. I really think we'd be able to pick up some new members in this class.
Keep plugging.
Mike Hopkins
 
Mike,

The price limit being $650.00, or more, is where we are in most need of help. As much as the lure of new shooters, without trying, is appealing, most of the feedback is against the inclusion of a new class.

On the other hand, a trial period might open the door for you and actually determine if a new class will bring in new shooters and give those "just having fun" types a comfortable place to shoot.

Find out what your group believes should be the correct price limit and we can decide. You keep plugging.
 
MHOPKINS said:
Cris,
I put this question out to a mix of air benchrest and air silhouette shooters. The Silhouette Match Director told me if the Marauder could get in ($650 limit), he would join us. That's without trying. If the Production class becomes official I will send out an invitation via our mother club newsletter (multi gun/archery disciplines) that reaches around 1200 members. I really think we'd be able to pick up some new members in this class.
Keep plugging.
Mike Hopkins
Click to expand...

Years ago I shot in a Rimfire match in New Brunswick, Canada that was a combination of silhouette, Biathelon target and Benchrest. It took a long day to finish the match.
 
Pete,

We've done a "Triathlon" of rifle field target, bench rest and pistol field target three years in a row out here in Ashland, Or. Lot's of fun, but some think it's too much for them to do. We do it over two days of shooting, so it's 50 shots in each class... or 150 shots each day for two days.. 300 points possible. It's works and is real fun, for some "Iron" men, and not for others..

I think the price max for the class should be at least $750 and it should be a "claims" class. Then the Match Directors wouldn't have to police the rigs to see if they are "production" or have been modified. A "claims" match class, in my humble opinion, would bring the most excitement to our game and have the best chance to bring in new shooters.. and existing ones back to the game.. and crossover from field target.

But my feelings are more in line with "bring what ya got" whatever it costs... or borrow one of the rigs the club members bring in... we want new shooters and shouldn't care what they have to shoot.. just come and shoot, we'll find a place you fit in eventually... and for now, we'll just note what you are shooting in the match report..

Wacky Wayne,
Match Director,
Ashland Air Rifle Range
 
I'm real picky, but I'm not showing up at a match with a perfectly legal gun that I have personally fitted with the scope and mounts I like, adjusted to my liking, and have some sore loser say here's $750 and take my gun. Then I can go back on the waiting list for getting another, buy another scope, etc. Not gonna happen.
 
Hi Cris
Airguns of Arizona lists a .177 and .22 caliber PCP Marauder for $399. The .25 caliber is slightly more. Based on that, I would suggest a $650 limit. I agree that it would be upsetting to have someone claim your rifle after a match and would NOT recommend it. The simplest rules would be best for folks new to competition, including bags vs mechanical rests. We're ready to participate in a trial period when you are. I love the idea of a farm team; newbies learning the ropes and wind before the more serious move up to the big boy rigs.
Mike Hopkins
Rogue River Air Rifles
 
Mike,

Simple rules.

Factory air rifle that must remain completely unmodified.

MSRP for air rifle, scope rings and scope not to exceed $650.00USD

No mechanical front rest or one piece rest.

Front bag must be a factory version and be completely unmodified. Only sand can be used as fill.

Rear bag must be a factory version and be completely unmodified. Only sand can be used as fill.
Spacers of wood or synthetic materials are allowed.

Any caliber. Any power level.

All other international rules will apply.

Anything else?
 
You just got one new shooter. I'm in. I will be at the SHOT Show and will decide on scope/rings. The rifle will be a Marauder.

Steve W.
 
That sounds pretty good to me.. like "shoot what ya got" too, as being open to any power level.. but not sure that .25 cal and larger can play on the same targets as the we use now... but I wouldn't turn anyone away if they showed up with a .25 cal rig.. I'd let em shoot and note it on the match report, and ask the shooter to change barrels/rigs to .22 or .177. over a reasonable time.

I also just picked up a new .177 marauder for this class, cause LD was doing it last weekend in a very strong swirling wind.. made us all feel like beginners:). I'm so glad to see Steve join in the BR group in Grants Pass... We'll get to play together more and we'll all eat real well too. With Carol, Steve and me bringing in soups and stews, devil eggs.. word will spread and we'll be having to have relays on the 8 or 10 lanes we have indoors now... See ya next Weds.!

But what does " must remain completely unmodified" mean? no trigger adjusting?.. cleaning barrel burrs? polishing ports? adjusting or regulating power? You need to draw the line more clearly, so if it grows like we hope, a serious match director.. at a finals match, could enforce your rules reasonably well.

Wacky Wayne
 
A Marauder MSRP is $510. That leaves only $140 for scope & rings. I am having a tough time finding a reasonable scope for that price. Any chance you will increase the total MSRP to $700?

Steve W.
 
I thought the springer class was the entry level class?
Adding an entry level class with a claiming rule is just adding complexity to a class that should be simple to enter and compete in. Your asking for problems with the claiming rule. Why does this have to be complicated?

If everyone is bent on adding ANOTHER class, then have a stock unmodified Marauder class. Keep it simple. For example: Have a $10.00 protest fee (can be any amount). Whomever protests the rifle, pays $10.00. If the rifle is deemed legal, the $10.00 goes to the owner of the protested rifle, if the protested rifle is deemed illegal, the money is returned to the protester and the rifle is disqualified for that day of shooting and is disqualified from shooting at the next event.

Gordon
 
Gordon,

I think we are dropping the "claims" part of the idea..

Cris,

I agree with Steve, you can't use MSRP and keep it at $650.. $750 makes more sense to me at he MSRP level.

Wacky Wayne
 
I think we are headed down a very bumpy path with this class . The marauder or CZ 200 fetes into classes that we all ready have . There is nothing stooping a 20 ft/lb Marauder shooting the 20 ft/lb class . The marauder as it comes wood probably fit into the 35 ft/lb class . I have owned 2 Marauders and I wood think that there are very few that have not been modified in some way .
 
Everyone,

The USA Production Class will begin with a trial period. We are hoping for a 'just having fun", "bring what you got" class, where shooters might try benchrest and then stick around, without any time frames to become more involved. There will be no "claiming".

Wayne,

Please get with Mike Hopkins and make a final determination as to the price limit and other rules, regarding "completely unmodified" should look like. Also, please remember, the goal is for the rules to be simple.

Gordon,

The USA Springer class was never intended to be an entry level venue. The intention was to give those shooters who wanted to shoot another type of air rifle, i.e., springers and SSP, a level playing field.

Adding another class is a concern and this will be addressed in the future with the possibility of eliminating another class with little or no participation.

The rules will be simple, which is why a "protest", where the match director is left with the unenviable task of deciding if a gun shoots great due to a super barrel or a modified trigger, is not what we are after.

Rick,

Good points. The only issue with the other classes that the air rifles you mentioned can shoot in, is the cost of a front rest. Yes, there are inexpensive front rests available and the ingenious car jack but even these options can add too much to the cost to play. The clubs in Oregon have extremely large memberships that compete in multiple disciplines where some small level of crossover is more likely.
 
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Cris,

I'm with you on the goal.. but we are running into differing ideas on ideas on how to get there...

Should the "production class be only for beginners? How do you define a beginner? Now the match director is trying to figure out if the gun has been modified, and if the shooter is still a beginner after how many matches?... at what score level.. it all seems to complicated and limiting of the number of shooters... we want anyone and everyone with an airgun to feel welcome to try our sport..

a whole lot of possible new shooter bought a air rifle to hunt and they are shooting a Daystate or Air Arms or something, way over the $650 price limit your suggesting... they are beginners too.. and most of the potential new shooters... but left out with your plan..

Wacky Wayne
Match Director,
Ashland Air Rifle Range
 
Wayne,

Should the production class be only for beginners? No.

Hopefully, the beginning shooter is who will be drawn to this class but anyone can play here. It might also become a class where a shooter can enjoy a more relaxed form of competition, without any time frames to upgrade their equipment.

Simple rules means match directors have it equally simple.

Now, for all of those shooters that made a more substantial investment in their first air rifle, LV, HV and USA Open class can still be shot with a front bag. No one should be left out.

Lastly, this is not "my plan". It was an idea, a concept. Read this thread again, very few shooters and match directors thought this would work. I was ready to move on, just another dumb idea but one shooter wrote that he would get involved, if this class was available, just one shooter.

Everyone should try to bring in one shooter, per year, to try our game out. By going through with a trial period for the USA Production Class, I have done my job for 2012.
 
New shooter here! Please, let's keep this simple. Just define the equipment. Rifle, scope & rings to not total more than $700 MSRP. The class is Production. It is not Production Beginner. If Wacky Wayne, LD, or anyone else wants to compete in it as an additional entry, fine. Don't worry about power levels, shooter classification, etc. Just define the equipment & let's get on with shooting! If more advanced shooters compete, I will learn from them!

Steve W.
 
Attention Match Directors.

I have three new shooters interested in this class. None of them will fit the rules. One Maruader and two Hammerli Pnuema. plus mine as I will shoot with them. These folks own a rifle that comes close to the guide lines. All fit the key words for a factory gun, no internal modifications such as adding a regulator or barrel or custom trigger . Two Hammerli's have external modifications one with a dust collector on his muzzle and removal of factory sights and useless barrel bands. One has a scope that is old and no list price is available. Nothing in the variations will make a tinkers damn in the outcome of the score. All have adjusted power and all have adjusted their trigger. To use inflated retail pricing is not realistic the inflated retail is to make the discounted prices look good. Telling someone that they have a 549.00 list price rifle that they paid 249.00 for, makes no sense in Houston.

We will use current internet pricing instead of list price on guns and scopes. I will not turn these guys away for a few dollars and if they are not willing to change the equipment in order to shoot guidelines, as that would only allow one of the four to shoot, I will allow them all. We will shoot and turn in scores and if no one wants to count them that's OK. Should someone show up with sports match mount that put them 15.00 over price they will still shoot. I will not turn one single shooter away. as I am trying to build local club shooting not postal competition. If they own a scope and have a rifle that I know will give no substantial advantage, they will shoot. All of the four have some kind of a rest mostly they are the cheapest thing that one can find at retail. No use of a mechanical rest will be allowed. If they have a front rest they can rest the gun on it, but make no adjustment during the match. Bag shooting is just that, using the rear bag to adjust elevation and windage. To use a front leather bag means almost all of the new shooters will have to purchase one and then make something out of a block of wood to get enough elevation at the muzzle. If anything using a squared front rest will be a dis-advantage as these stocks are rounded and shooting a soft leather bag would give a better fit. Some have no rear or front rest or bag so we will have to lend them something or fill some shot bags with sand.

That's the scoop from Houston and if we cannot play, I guess we will have to muddle through.

One thing we may consider since success to a new shooter is what will bring them back. We may use the 50 meter target at 25 meters for this class so that higher scores will result, then move to the 25 meter target once we have them hooked.



Bob Z
 
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