USA Production Class

Wayne,

You may have a solution.

Run a "claiming" match with some price tag for the top rifle and see how many shooters are interested. The real question is after the modifications or the sheer luck, is the winning shooter actually going to let someone buy the rifle out from under him/her.
 
Cris,

If someone didn't want to "sell" the rifle.. they wouldn't enter the "Claims" match... they'd shoot in the regular meet that's going on at the same time. Some folks who are good at getting inexpensive rigs shooting well, could "prove" out their rigs at these claim matches and make a few bucks on em.. then on to the next challenge of getting a cheap gun to shoot good. Lot's of guys enjoy this kind of challenge.. and lot's of others just want to shoot, but want a proven rig to compete with..

Seems like a win/win to me..

Wacky Wayne
 
So then, what eggzackly would be the attraction for folks to enter a claims match? I see it in of itself as a dissentive for some folks to enter almost at any reasonable price, if they value their gun a lot and had plans to finish out a season or more with it.

A few years ago I had a couple pretty well-known rimfire benchrest guys stay at my place for about a week and test various ammo and tune settings in my 51yd tunnel. Anyhow, one of em (Darryl) mentioned how he had passed up selling the barrel in his gun for near two grand because he wanted to finish out the season with it ... he admitted he could sell it for way less AFTER the season ended, but needed it for now. He HAD a couple other good barrels, but felt THIS one was slightly better in hot weather or sumthin ...

To me, a claims rule is good within a class meant to contain only low priced guns as a means to keep folks honest, and only in matches that are offering some sort of exceptional prize or award for winning it. For instance a match near the year's end to decide the National Champ in the "stock Marauder class" or something like that could work if the prize was a brand new Marauder, and any of the top three guns (sans scope) be claimed for say .... $600.

But obviously that sort of thing can only happen once the appeal of the airgun benchrest game gets so large that such a match could be hosted with a reasonable expectation it would be well attended enough (gate money) to warrant separate classes like that, with the inference being the prize would be from a dealer or manufacturer.

I could be wrong tho, and there's noting stopping a guy like you from hosting a claims match to see how it draws. I know I suggested something similar back in the 90's at a Field Target match, and most of the top shooter wuz just lookin at their feet, and a few newbies were excited about it, but it never went nowhere ....
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sorry not to be more clear in my idea LD.. but you are close with....

"To me, a claims rule is good within a class meant to contain only low priced guns as a means to keep folks honest, and only in matches that are offering some sort of exceptional prize or award for winning it. For instance a match near the year's end to decide the National Champ in the "stock Marauder class" or something like that could work if the prize was a brand new Marauder, and any of the top three guns (sans scope) be claimed for say .... $600."

.. but I don't think we need the "other prizes"... the chance to get a proven rig for a decent price like $1,000 should be "draw" enough, seems to me.

If someone wants to have a hobby of getting cheap guns to shoot well, and maybe make a profit on em... and prove that they shoot well at a "Claims" match, with the HOPE someone might wanna buy it.. then for sure the "Claims" match is a place to get that done.. and have some fun. Folks looking for a good shooting rig would come to see what's shooting in the "Claims" class that day... and enter with whatever cheap gun they got, so they can buy the best gun after the match.

Don't you think there are a lot of folks that would like to tinker around and get a cheap gun to shoot well and then make $300-$500 on it... granted, if they count their time, they most likely would be working real cheap.. but still they get that pay plus the glory of making a silk purse out of a pigs ear.. or whatever that saying is:)


On the other hand if the gun is so good they don't wanna sell it.. then don't enter in the Claims match... enter the regular match going on at the same time.. Just like LV or HV class, the "Claims" class would be shot at the same time... you just state you're in it or not.

It would just be an added class that's waiting for those two types of folks to join in at anytime they show up to do it... no need to do anything by the Match Director.. just keep track of who's in and who's not for that match.

Anyway, if the weather holds up.. I'll be down there to let you guys beat my butt again this weekend... and yep.. I'll bring the venison:)

Wacky Wayne
 
Sadly, I think most folks wanting to sell a gun for such a huge profit as you describe are not interested in it enough to shoot it in match to advertise its capabilities first, nor are most newbies likely to realize if the gun DOES shoot truly well what a bargain it really is.
 
Don,

I suggest your very best route is to buy a used, but competitive rig from a member of a local club where you will be shooting. This method is likely to give more satisfaction than buying some new gun under advice and sorting it out for yourself.
 
Pete,

Not sure I understand the "Dead Horsing" comment?

LD,
I'm not describing "huge profits" for the seller.. just most likely $5.00 per hour for time cleaning burrs, polishing ports, re-crowning barrels, regulating, trigger adjusting, tuning and testing different pellets for that barrel... or whatever the hobby tunner does to make it shoot well... anyway.. it's just an idea, you folks can use it if you like... or let it slide like so much other duck poop:)

Wacky Wayne
 
therealld said:
Don,

I suggest your very best route is to buy a used, but competitive rig from a member of a local club where you will be shooting. This method is likely to give more satisfaction than buying some new gun under advice and sorting it out for yourself.
Click to expand...

I think we are so new at this sport here in the US that there are very few truly competative rifles and not many of them available and for sale. This is the issue. We are at a place where if they would, those making Air Rifles could make some especially for benchrest competition. Perhas it's a Hen and Egg situation where they want to see the demand and don't believe there are truly people willing to buy Benchrest rifles. So be it, there will be Custom Makers who beat them to the market. For most people, trying to make a $500. rifle competative willl be like trying to compete in NASCAR with a Yugo.
 
Pete, I feel your best bet would be an EV2. For $2k you won't have a better chance of getting a competitive gun that is nearly ready for benchrest. If I'm not mistaken AA makes an aluminum front rest for the gun that will allow it to work in a mechanical rest.
There are so few competitive benchrest shooters in the US, or the world for that matter, that I feel most manufacturers won't see the benefit from providing a benchrest ready rifle over the counter.
Dan

Pete Wass said:
I think we are so new at this sport here in the US that there are very few truly competative rifles and not many of them available and for sale. This is the issue. We are at a place where if they would, those making Air Rifles could make some especially for benchrest competition. Perhas it's a Hen and Egg situation where they want to see the demand and don't believe there are truly people willing to buy Benchrest rifles. So be it, there will be Custom Makers who beat them to the market. For most people, trying to make a $500. rifle competative willl be like trying to compete in NASCAR with a Yugo.
Click to expand...
 
Dan is right on . There are things coming down the road , but for now the EV2 is the closes one can get to a ready made competitive rifle . Not counting the Worlds , just here in the north East I have seen or shoot 4 good EV2 .( not one was bad ) .All have shot 250 on a regular bases . I know of no other rifle currently in production that can do that .
 
Gentlemen,

To get back on track. This potential new class is not intended for shooters crossing over from rimfire benchrest or field target.

The USA Production class is intended for new shooters or shooters new to benchrest. The price limit on the air rifle, scope and rings is designed to make it affordable to the uninitiated or a shoot what you have affair. Even those simply curious after seeing scores that are posted might find this a non-threatening place to test themselves and their equipment.

This class could shoot along side LV, HV or Open class shooters with the same target at the same distance, indoors or outdoors. Match director involvement should be limited with the obvious distinction in equipment. Cheating is not a significant concern with most match directors foregoing any power checking for other classes.

If every club brought one new shooter to the line each year, our ranks would increase. More shooters mean manufacturers pay more attention and become more willing to provide the specialized equipment we need. This also creates the cottage industry of custom products from small shops that rimfire and centerfire benchrest shooters enjoy. More gunsmiths become comfortable doing barrels and stocks for air rifles. More importantly, we reduce the risk of losing clubs due to attrition and death.

A vote on thos forum by the match directors and shooters would be appreciated.
 
I vote no.

I feel the price limit of $600 is totally unrealistic, and if the class were to be started up, it might lead to entry level shooters wasting their money on equipment that doesn't resemble what more experienced shooters are using, making them feel strange.

These new shooters would be better served to simply show up with whatever they have, or borrow something while getting acclimated, rather than spending time, effort and money on a (competitive) $600 rig even seasoned air BR shooters would have a tough time selecting from retail product lines.

If they end up not liking the game right off, they are soured by that purchase, and if they DO like it, they wish they hadn't bought that rig because they now want a better one.

As to the experienced airgun BR shooters ... why bother? They don't need a class like that to learn if they like the game or not, and if its not growing the sport, whats the point of it?

I think the best entry level guns would be used 10M rifles fitted with $300 scopes. If you don't like the game after trying it, you really haven't got stick much, since used 10M stuff is pretty easy to resell, and not bad to just keep for other kinds of shooting. I now many don't think it works, but even sidelever springers and singlestroke pneumatics can be satisfying if there is more than one on the line if you work hard for it.
 
cris said:
Gentlemen,

To get back on track. This potential new class is not intended for shooters crossing over from rimfire benchrest or field target.

The USA Production class is intended for new shooters or shooters new to benchrest. The price limit on the air rifle, scope and rings is designed to make it affordable to the uninitiated or a shoot what you have affair. Even those simply curious after seeing scores that are posted might find this a non-threatening place to test themselves and their equipment.

This class could shoot along side LV, HV or Open class shooters with the same target at the same distance, indoors or outdoors. Match director involvement should be limited with the obvious distinction in equipment. Cheating is not a significant concern with most match directors foregoing any power checking for other classes.

If every club brought one new shooter to the line each year, our ranks would increase. More shooters mean manufacturers pay more attention and become more willing to provide the specialized equipment we need. This also creates the cottage industry of custom products from small shops that rimfire and centerfire benchrest shooters enjoy. More gunsmiths become comfortable doing barrels and stocks for air rifles. More importantly, we reduce the risk of losing clubs due to attrition and death.

A vote on thos forum by the match directors and shooters would be appreciated.
Click to expand...

Chris,

Setting a limit of any kind on new shooters will eliminate as many as it will allow to shoot. If you talk to any one who does not own an air rifle the consensus is that anyone who would spend more that a couple of hundred dollars on an air gun is crazy. Many competitors in other disciplines own some match type air rifles and if you ask what they use it for will say they practice for what they really do and have never fired it in competition. The majority of air rifles sold are spring piston break barrel and are plinkers and hunters. The advent of the Crossman discovery and Marauder has brought some hunters into that group. The serious PC Hunters have more than the dollars being discussed invested.

Any one of us including the match directors can recognize a rifle that is not capable even in the hands of the Masters among us. This in my opinion is a club level decision. For my club It is come one come all and try bench rest plinking for score you will be shooting for fun. You will classified in the Basic rifle class by the match director. If I get some attendance I will pull out my Hammerli Pnuema at 249.00 and shoot with one other shooting now. The other gentleman knows that he cannot score with my high dollar guns. He competes with his own last best score.

I think we are a little anal in some of the gun weights as example striping down the EV-2 to make weight. The weights seem to be a carry over from rim fire and center fire.

My vote is to allow any rifle and let the Match Director Classify them at the Club level. When we have gained 10 problem shooters turning in postal scores solve the problem of classification at that time. The problem is not classification it is getting any new shooters. Solve the most difficult first.

Bob
 
Chris,
I support the Production Class idea. We often have conversations with spectators who own Springers. When the talk comes to, "how much are these setups?", conversation over. This is a good recruiting tool we would use. Like airgun silhouette, the main distinction for the Production Class is gun cost. I agree the purpose is to recruit NEW shooters, many of whom have their own less expensive fun/pest/varmint shooters. Cost should be based on NEW rifle cost, no lucky ringers with a buddy's XX10 Whizbang. Keep it bags and spacers to keep it even. I think $600 is a good limit ...for this year. In order to keep from having to make changes months after the initial launch, I would suggest $650 - $700. Covers price changes and allows the Maurader to enter the class. Variables to choose from are still gun, scope brand & power and one of the the biggest variables of all, pellets. I'm sure the comraderie and encouragement of all shooters makes as much impact in recruiting newbies as the equipment. It's a great idea, Chris.
Mike Hopkins
Match Director
Wild River Air Rifles
 
Mike,

Thank you for your input. You are, however, in the minority. While most agree it is a good idea, few believe it will bring more of those new shooters into the game.

What happened in Arizona was very special and may not be repeated, we will wait and see. There may have been other factors playing a part, other than shooting entry level air rifles from front bags.

Time and patience will tell.
 
It's cold here and I'm spending too much time reading forums!

The previous comments are almost verbatim like those in other threads about a "Factory Class" in benchrest. If the factory could build a competitive rifle, air or otherwise, it would cost as much as a custom and they'd have a market of a few thousand at most. There aren't any factory rifles in LV, HV or RF why would there need to be in AR (air rifle)? Seems to me, from considering years of prior history in BR, that no one has ever been able to bridge the gap from shooting for fun to competing without going to custom guns. Not sure why it would work any better in AR. Shooting for fun always escalates to competition and a lot of money can be spent in between that, I think, would be better spent on a custom rig to start with.

I don't have a handle on why so few people want to compete in shooting. We all have scads of buddies with .270s that will shoot 1/2" at 200 "all day", but they never bring 'em to the range. I've come to the conclusion that it's difficult to come up with a scenario to lure them into the effort and desire necessary to be a competitor.

The real lure of AR benchrest to me, would be to have an indoor range (or at least indoor benches) of 25- or 50-yds. and have it as a "winter league" to shoot during the cold times of winter here in the Northeast. I've been looking at some of the PCP rigs and they are fascinating. What's needed is to come up with a set of rules and regulations, like IBS or NBRSA, and let the customs abound.
 
Last edited:
I do not think a factory class well bring new people into bench rest . We well be holding a air gun fun day at Salem . Shoot what you bring with with lots of fun shoots , We well advertise heavily in local papers and covenant stores etc. I don't know how it well work but think it is worth a try . There is winter air rifle shooting in NY , NH .and Mass. now . Wood like to see you at one . Rick
 
Rick, I'm certainly curious as to the skeds for the NH, NY shoots. I plan on taking in a couple of the winter league (centerfire) shoots at Dunham's Bay this year.

Do need to add here, though, that I have spent lots of time last couple days looking around the web at PCP Air stuff. My interest is waning fast as I have no interest in paying two, three, even four thousand dollars on another class of benchrest. And, certainly, none of my shooting buddies are either.

I look at Air BR as a fun thing to do in the off-season, not as a replacement for my BR shooting. That probably puts me in a different category than some of the comments of folks looking for a less-expensive alternative to rimfire and/or centerfire BR.
 
Last edited:
Reed,
Where in VT. are you? We have a couple of indoor benches at Salem (3 miles from Vt. border, west of Manchester, 30 miles SE of Dunhams Bay) and are planning on adding more and holding some shoots this winter. Rick and I are there almost every Sat. and most Wed. evenings and always have extra rifles with us. You're more than welcome to come shoot with us. Shoot me an e-mail at TKBanks98@aol.com or give me a call at 518-796-0768.
Hope to shoot with you sometime,
Todd Banks
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top