Tuners!!!!

Fan in window

I shot in a winter evening 10-22 50 BR league back in the 90's. HB Shilen barrels, custom stocks, new or tricked out triggers, sub-sonic ammo only.......Ely, Gold Medal or Lapua ammo etc. 5 shot 5 target agg each week. Cumulative agg winners for the year.

We shot from indoor to lighted target outdoor. We had two tubes 16"x16"x96" with waffled carpet inside to suppress the report from the rifles for the neighbors nearby.

The tubes worked extremely well muffling the sound but the mirage was hideous.

Tried blowing fans trough the tubes with little success.

Solved the problem by opening a window in the clubhouse and placing a fan in the window blowing out. The cold winter air flowed through the tubes outside to in eliminating the mirage.
 
Ricco1949 said:
I shot in a winter evening 10-22 50 BR league back in the 90's. HB Shilen barrels, custom stocks, new or tricked out triggers, sub-sonic ammo only.......Ely, Gold Medal or Lapua ammo etc. 5 shot 5 target agg each week. Cumulative agg winners for the year.

We shot from indoor to lighted target outdoor. We had two tubes 16"x16"x96" with waffled carpet inside to suppress the report from the rifles for the neighbors nearby.

The tubes worked extremely well muffling the sound but the mirage was hideous.

Tried blowing fans trough the tubes with little success.

Solved the problem by opening a window in the clubhouse and placing a fan in the window blowing out. The cold winter air flowed through the tubes outside to in eliminating the mirage.
Click to expand...
That makes sense to me. A warm room(or tube) with warm air rushing through a window is terrible for mirage.
 
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The last word on tuners?

Tuners and can they actually stop the muzzle is a topic often seen on the shooting forums. Most people say no they can not.

Many believe tuners only act as a weight and they can only slow the movement of the barrel.

Others think barrels can be tuned to compensate for fast rounds verse slow rounds. Many even tune by shooting fast rounds and slow rounds and adjusting the tuner until these rounds strike the same vertical location.

All of this has led to some heated discussions.

There is a thread on another forum that I thought was interesting and should be copied for those interested.

http://www.wwaccuracy.com/showthread.php?t=5626

I know better than to take sides so I'll leave it there.

TKH
 
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tonykharper said:
Tuners and can they actually stop the muzzle is a topic often seen on the shooting forums. Most people say no they can not.

Many believe tuners only act as a weight and they can only slow the movement of barrel.

Others think barrels can be tuned to compensate for fast rounds verse slow rounds. Many even tune by shooting fast rounds and slow rounds and adjusting the tuner until these round strike the same vertical location.

All of this has led to some heated discussions.

There is a thread on another forum that I thought was interesting and should be copied for those interested.

http://www.wwaccuracy.com/showthread.php?t=5626

I know better than to take sides so I'll leave it there.

TKH
Click to expand...

Tony, BC is maybe the only person left on earth that still believes that's how a barrel vibrates and the whole stopped muzzle bung.

It's been proven wrong and is just counter to physics. Why resurrect that nonsense over here? It's best left on his personal site for art.

Lots of GOOD info can be found here.
https://www.varmintal.com/aengr.htm#ModalAccuracy
 
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mwezell said:
Tony, BC is maybe the only person left on earth that still believes that's how a barrel vibrates and the whole stopped muzzle bung.

It's been proven wrong and is just counter to physics. Why resurrect that nonsense over here? It's best left on his personal site for art.

Lots of GOOD info can be found here.
https://www.varmintal.com/aengr.htm#ModalAccuracy
Click to expand...

Nice post.
When you have won about 10% of what TKH has, you get to preach.
You have also stated RF barrels and CF barrels vibrate EXACTLY the same. I have recieved PM’s from guys that have tested RF barrels considerably more than yourself that have stated, if they have learned one single thing........that ain’t true.
I have asked you a single rebuttal question which you have consistently dodged....IR sporters. Please, kindly tell me how my sporter works .
And FWIW I ask this as a serious question, not to bust your chops. Now you asked a question above which I extended a polite, factual ( I hope) response. So I think I deserve, at least, an attempt.
At the end of the day, most guys are interested in results, not physics lessons.
Put up or shut up.
 
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tim said:
Nice post.
When you have won about 10% of what TKH has, you get to preach.
You have also stated RF barrels and CF barrels vibrate EXACTLY the same. I have recieved PM’s from guys that have tested RF barrels considerably more than yourself that have stated, if they have learned one single thing........that ain’t true.
I have asked you a single rebuttal question which you have consistently dodged....IR sporters. Please, kindly tell me how my sporter works .
At the end of the day, most guys are interested in results, not physics lessons.
Put up or shut up.
Click to expand...
I've never dodged anything you can dish out, for starters. Sporters shoot for the same reason that any other in tune rifle shoots when it's in tune. It's not a difficult concept at all. You're showing your ignorance of the subject.

Second, you'll need to do a couple of things for me...One is to name another person who has actually done vibration analysis regarding tuners and barrels. This is important because you've either done it or your full of . I'll name one and you name another...Varmint Al.

Third, I guess you'll have to define what you mean when you say a rf bbl vibrates differently than a cf.
Yes, if it's less stiff, it vibrates differently but no, it doesn't magically know the primer is not in the center.

You can only offer what you've been told and that Tony is a very accomplished shooter.

What have YOU got? I'm betting nothing...but I'll wait for you to give me something based on physics and not what someone told you.

Come on Timmy...holding my breath here.
You called me out buddy. I'm here! Dont bring he said, she said bs to this dance.
 
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mwezell said:
I've never dodged anything you can dish out, for starters. Sporters shoot for the same reason that any other in tune rifle shoots when it's in tune. It's not a difficult concept at all. You're showing your ignorance of the subject.

Second, you'll need to do a couple of things for me...One is to name another person who has actually done vibration analysis regarding tuners and barrels. This is important because you've either done it or your full of . I'll name one and you name another...Varmint Al.

Third, I guess you'll have to define what you mean when you say a rf bbl vibrates differently than a cf.
Yes, if it's less stiff, it vibrates differently but no, it doesn't magically know the primer is not in the center.

You can only offer what you've been told and that Tony is a very accomplished shooter.

What have YOU got? I'm betting nothing...but I'll wait for you to give me something based on physics and not what someone told you.

Come on Timmy...holding my breath here.
You called me out buddy. I'm here! Dont bring he said, she said bs to this dance.
Click to expand...

Ignorance of the subject??? Have you been within 100 feet of a sporter? You know the ones , the good ones which shoot in pretty much all conditions without benefit of adjustable tuners.
I won’t name any guys, they have asked me not too. Essentially they understand the benefit of not arguing with a brick wall.
I can offer plenty of real world experience and more knowledge with actual gunsmiths that have built more world record guns Than you can imagine that have one thing in common, as it applies to rimfire, basically you’re full of sh.t.
You mak make/sell tuners, although personally, I’ve never seen one at any match, nor pictures of same. Since you are, at least a part time smith, where’s those finely honed Mike E match killers?
Several of the guys you tend to preach to know how to shoot AND tune a rifle or two
It’s pretty simple, with this vast sum of knowledge you continue to preach about, wouldn't it seem logical You might have shown up somewhere at a sanctioned match (that anybody ever heard of ) and shown the world.

Where’s the beef ? Mikey

IMHO my belief/suspicion is that a lot, if not most/all of your testing has been with average barrels, not superior ones, because if you have ever had a really superior barrel you could actually be shown, those , when they get tuned, they’re tuned, now, tomorrow, next month, and three years from now. My best gun hasn’t had a click since the barrel went on.

Few more things for you Mikey. Does a barrel slightly out of round vibrate EXACTLY like one perfectly round in the bore ?
Does a barrel with a nice even taper vibrate EXACTLY the same as one with lots of inconsistencies
in the taper?
Does a barrel the seals a round very quickly in the early part of the bore vibrate. EXACTLY the same as one that does not.
Does a barrel that puts a slug “ to sleep” in the first 18”-20” vibrate EXACTLY the same as one incapable of ever doing that?
Point being here Mikey, you may think you have answers to some questions but I guarantee you you have’nt thought of all the important questions , nor likely utilized big enough samples to realize there are slight variations, enough to make a difference.

Back to school for Mikey.
 
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You're correct, Tony. I used to get teased about shooting closer to the target. My only comment, is lookout for the powder burns, when scoring it.
 
tim said:
Ignorance of the subject??? Have you been within 100 feet of a sporter? You know the ones , the good ones which shoot in pretty much all conditions without benefit of adjustable tuners.
I won’t name any guys, they have asked me not too. Essentially they understand the benefit of not arguing with a brick wall.
I can offer plenty of real world experience and more knowledge with actual gunsmiths that have built more world record guns Than you can imagine that have one thing in common, as it applies to rimfire, basically you’re full of sh.t.
You mak make/sell tuners, although personally, I’ve never seen one at any match, nor pictures of same. Since you are, at least a part time smith, where’s those finely honed Mike E match killers?
Several of the guys you tend to preach to know how to shoot AND tune a rifle or two
It’s pretty simple, with this vast sum of knowledge you continue to preach about, wouldn't it seem logical You might have shown up somewhere at a sanctioned match (that anybody ever heard of ) and shown the world.

Where’s the beef ? Mikey

IMHO my belief/suspicion is that a lot, if not most/all of your testing has been with average barrels, not superior ones, because if you have ever had a really superior barrel you could actually be shown, those , when they get tuned, they’re tuned, now, tomorrow, next month, and three years from now. My best gun hasn’t had a click since the barrel went on.
Click to expand...
That brick wall is called physics Timmy. You keep wanting to talk sporters, like they prove me wrong or something. Newsflash Timmy...they don't.

Clearly, you have no firsthand experience and just parroting what you've been told..again.

Think what you want to think and use what you want to use, and how...but just stop with the bs, and stop arguing with physics.

I share things that I've learned with vibration testing freely to anyone that asks. Sometimes the answer is a simple..I don't know. And often, what analysis showed is proven on target and vice versa.

Lets get back to this notion of tuners working differently on a cf vs a rf. My tuners and work have a very good record in cf. Teach me what exactly is different and why. Please...no more of this he said, she said stuff. Either you know or you don't. And if you understand it, you can explain it so even a dummy like me can understand.


edit...you asked a lot of questions while I was typing but I didn't see any answers from you involving science or sound reasoning even.

You have no idea how many barrels I've tested but some are good enough to hold records and national championships, so those must've been respectable. Stop assuming that you know ANYTHING about me!
 
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mwezell said:
That brick wall is called physics Timmy. You keep wanting to talk sporters, like they prove me wrong or something. Newsflash Timmy...they don't.

Clearly, you have no firsthand experience and just parroting what you've been told..again.

Think what you want to think and use what you want to use, and how...but just stop with the bs, and stop arguing with physics.

I share things that I've learned with vibration testing freely to anyone that asks. Sometimes the answer is a simple..I don't know. And often, what analysis showed is proven on target and vice versa.

Lets get back to this notion of tuners working differently on a cf vs a rf. My tuners and work have a very good record in cf. Teach me what exactly is different and why. Please...no more of this he said, she said stuff. Either you know or you don't. And if you understand it, you can explain it so even a dummy like me can understand.


edit...you asked a lot of questions while I was typing but I didn't see any answers from you involving science or sound reasoning even.

You have no idea how many barrels I've tested but some are good enough to hold records and national championships, so those must've been respectable. Stop assuming that you know ANYTHING about me!
Click to expand...

Mikey, I have no argument about the whole tuner deal in CF.
We’re talking RF here And we’re not talking about the junior leagues where you hang, so as far as major sanctioning body accomplishments......that would be.....ah.....zero.
RF crowd tends to migrate to what works, over time so let us remember, typically you enter these threads as the constant counterpoint with a heavy dose of pedantic preaching.
It’s really rather simple, where is your RF track record, those tuners should be flying off the shelf.
Who, where, is the top flight RF shooter using your tuners/rifles/methodology ?
For somebody so quick to call ignorance, your awful light on results there Mikey
 
tim said:
Mikey, I have no argument about the whole tuner deal in CF.
We’re talking RF here And we’re not talking about the junior leagues where you hang, so as far as major sanctioning body accomplishments......that would be.....ah.....zero.
RF crowd tends to migrate to what works, over time so let us remember, typically you enter these threads as the constant counterpoint with a heavy dose of pedantic preaching.
It’s really rather simple, where is your RF track record, those tuners should be flying off the shelf.
Who, where, is the top flight RF shooter using your tuners/rifles/methodology ?
For somebody so quick to call ignorance, your awful light on results there Mikey
Click to expand...
And you still have only offered anecdotal bs..no science at all. I shot ARA and PSL for a season. I learned a lot and part of what I learned is what I'm preaching. A lot of good people in the game and yes, there are several of my tuners out there..Yes, even in RF. I live in a hotbed for cf and can't afford to shoot every discipline that I'd like to, both time wise and monetarily. But I did fairly well and I had to decide to shoot one or the other...I went cf.

I did virtually no ammo testing but tuned the rifle to whatever I bought. Yes, some was better than othrs but it was mostly all competitive, at the right tuner setting. I won several cards and finished respectfully like that. Not shabby for a one year rf shooter that knew nothing going in. The two biggest differences in the game itself, I found, are ammo inconsistency and how wind sensitive those little lead bricks are. In cf, the wind isn't as bad and the ammo is a high quality constant, that is within my control.

That made what I learned with cf an easy carryover to rf, where using a tuner is concerned. I applied the very same scientific approach to both rf and cf tuner adjustment. Keep in mind, I had tested bbls in both with sophisticated vibration analysis equipment and was out to verify my findings against top shooters, at the highest level rf has to offer. I was satisfied with my findings and decided to stay with cf..but not because I couldn't be competitive. Quite the contrary! I learned that with practice..I could be competitive in it. My scores reflected it, by my highest placement virtually always coming on the early cards, while conditions were best. It wasn't a tune or bbl problem, because I was fortunate enough to have high cards while the conditions were more suitable to a rookie rf shooter.

I'm done playing with you Timmy. You have had ample opportunity to say ANYTHING of value and..as I thought..you got nothing, apparently.

The world isn't flat Timmy. Try to keep up or crawl back under you rock. I will respond again when you have something valid to post. You've shown that you either can't or won't. I'll go out on a limb here and say it's the prior.

This has gone from a piece of wire(linked to a banned member's own website), to sporters, to the idiocy of bbls somehow knowing the cartridge primer isn't in the center, etc...but no real data.

I read almost every tuner thread. I eat, sleep and breathe this stuff. It's easy to separate the chafe from the posters with applicable data.

You talk a lot but say nothing. That's a shame and it holds us all back from advancing both rf and cf.

If you keep up with my posts, you'd know that I can back up what I say or will state what is theory and what I have learned and verified. I'm very honest about tuners and I'm happy to share anything I can with anyone who wants to know the actual science behind them. They are actually very predictable and repeatable...So there must be a REAL science at play and that's all I'm interested in talking about. There is no such thing as rf voodoo, err magic. The major differences are barrel stiffness and in bore time. So yes, the less stiff rf barrels vibrate slower(lower frequency) and the bullet is in the bbl longer. There's you difference Timmy. I PROMISE YOU...It's not art nor magic.
 
Wow, how have I ever managed to win a match now and again being this dumb.
Hope we get to shoot together sometime.

You take care now.
 
The match!

Guys, if you are really going to do this thing do it on neutral ground.

I suggest the IR 50/50 Nationals Sept. 25th 2020, at Kettlefoot Range Bristol,Va.

This side match will add to the excitement of the overall tournament.

TKH
 
mwezell said:
That brick wall is called physics Timmy. You keep wanting to talk sporters, like they prove me wrong or something. Newsflash Timmy...they don't.

Clearly, you have no firsthand experience and just parroting what you've been told..again.

Think what you want to think and use what you want to use, and how...but just stop with the bs, and stop arguing with physics.

I share things that I've learned with vibration testing freely to anyone that asks. Sometimes the answer is a simple..I don't know. And often, what analysis showed is proven on target and vice versa.

Lets get back to this notion of tuners working differently on a cf vs a rf. My tuners and work have a very good record in cf. Teach me what exactly is different and why. Please...no more of this he said, she said stuff. Either you know or you don't. And if you understand it, you can explain it so even a dummy like me can understand.


edit...you asked a lot of questions while I was typing but I didn't see any answers from you involving science or sound reasoning even.

You have no idea how many barrels I've tested but some are good enough to hold records and national championships, so those must've been respectable. Stop assuming that you know ANYTHING about me!
Click to expand...
i was tolled 1250 barrelhas no vibs in rimfire i just chambered 4 new barrels for unl. rimfire and turned front for m turner bill b.
 
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