Tuners Spinning Out Of Control

greg, just think about this for 5 minuets........ no one from any applied science has come to bill's defense on barrel vibration/tuning. not one from math, not one from physics, not one from engineering, just think for once. greg the thing about a book is an inside joke... I was prepared to present opinions on stocks,bedding,vibrations, harmonics not from me but from some of the most knowledgeable in their field, and we found it's not worth the agravation. and this involved work from california,texas,new york and pa. not one thing from me. but you and a few others made it impossible. martin

I majored in Electrical Engineering, with a minor in math and physics. My career is spent working out problems to +3 sigma confidence to ensure the millions my company spends will be money well spent. I just spent the last 9 months of my life looking at one project, crunching data and running analysis for days on end. There are often misguided and 'kindergarten' approaches to prove a hypothesis in these forums. People often draw conclusions on data that is suspect, riddled with error and completely void of process. Furthermore, most lack the necessary equipment to adequately conduct such experiments in a manner conducive to true scientific methods. Not to mentioned the aforementioned equipment is often expensive to own and maintain calibration.

But, I think you're missing the point. These forums are intended for discussion among our peers of benchrest shooters and light technical dialogue about what seems to work and what does not. It's about what's new on the horizon and which setup seems to yield the best results or for that matter, where to get the coolest gear for a reasonable price.

Trust me, leave the science to real scientists and quit using the data here or elsewhere as raw, unquestionable fact.

Cheers,
Michael
 
After his suspension was served, he pulled the threads. As Greg noted, apparently not 100% of the threads were pulled by "Kathy".
 
I majored in Electrical Engineering, with a minor in math and physics. My career is spent working out problems to +3 sigma confidence to ensure the millions my company spends will be money well spent. I just spent the last 9 months of my life looking at one project, crunching data and running analysis for days on end. There are often misguided and 'kindergarten' approaches to prove a hypothesis in these forums. People often draw conclusions on data that is suspect, riddled with error and completely void of process. Furthermore, most lack the necessary equipment to adequately conduct such experiments in a manner conducive to true scientific methods. Not to mentioned the aforementioned equipment is often expensive to own and maintain calibration.

But, I think you're missing the point. These forums are intended for discussion among our peers of benchrest shooters and light technical dialogue about what seems to work and what does not. It's about what's new on the horizon and which setup seems to yield the best results or for that matter, where to get the coolest gear for a reasonable price.

Trust me, leave the science to real scientists and quit using the data here or elsewhere as raw, unquestionable fact.

Cheers,
Michael

well michael please tell everyone here what you disagree about on varmint Al's web page??????????? you of all people should know about speculation. do you want me to tell you about the plant's, that's plural, that I managed worth tens of millions??????? why do some of you think your the only one that got to sit and ride in the cab of the turnip truck....... martin
 
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martin,

it really wasn't me. i was driving a train home when this all happened. i can post up federal proof. i was on a train and i don't have a iphone anymore. you see i fear our government and refuse to buy a rifle that i have to fill papaer work on period anymore. i do face to face perchases anymore and i use a different name for that. i would not and will not use anybodies name but the one i post under. to me that is less than american to be who ever did that is less than american and deserves to to be shot at high noon by the best rimfire has to offer.

You do all that and then put up a post about it on a public forum?
 
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Michael/sideburn, on Dec. 19th, 1988 from laguardia we took pan am clipper maid of the sea to Frankfurt GR. from there to west berlin, stayed at the American hotel. after many meetings a procurement specialist asked how I was there? meaning everyone was in their 70's and 80's, my answer I listened to smart people. Michael I was lucky enough to visit most of Europe on business, saw the protests and riots at check point charlie same at brandenburg gate. had east Gr guards point their rifles at me standing on bleachers looking down into the rotunda. same soccer field where a small grave was set up where the east germans had murdered those that tried to cross the river and climb the bank including a 12 year old boy. Michael if you want to stay where you are for the next 25 years keep talking down to everyone including strangers. martin
 
Once again...you are wrong....

redux,madrox,beau. it didn't take John Carper long to figure you out........................ martin

Howdy Martin,
I am pretty much done responding to you. You don't answer rebuttals, if you answer at all. You ridicule when you can, but that would not be appropriate for what I posted earlier. If I were so inclined, the ridicule that could have been laid out to you is self evident. That is not who I am. You did not delete this, obviously it is not your thread. That leaves your last commonly used method of answering an argument. To answer anything except what was posted. When you respond to the actual argument laid out above, I may respond, but I doubt it.

It is an exercise in futility.

I type slowly, and I try to reason out what I say before I post it, whether I am successful in that or not. It takes a long time to reply, because I type slowly, and I try to document what I say with other posts or threads containing information. Takes a while to find it. So when you delete your threads, it is a bunch of work gone down the drain. I am convinced, right or wrong, that you delete the threads because you cannot rebutt the argument. Or you find that you don't like others doing to you as you do unto them. In short, you take your ball and go home. In past posts I have gone out of my way to be respectful to you. I made it a point to be respectful, if for no other reason, to contrast your behaviour to that of others.

Martin, if I read it correctly, Tom said you shoot 4 hours a day, 5-7 days a week. (I can't go back and check it, because I think it has been deleted.) Anyone who shoots that much is going to get some insight into accuracy. I sincerely hope that you do, and that you can find a way to pass it on to others without bashing. It simply kills your argument, no matter how good it would be. I know I am not the only one who thinks that way. And it is not just you that I think that about. I see people all the time who simpy cannot advocate their own position without slamming someone else. It kills the argument that they try to present as well.

Regarding this quote from you:

"I was prepared to present opinions on stocks,bedding,vibrations, harmonics not from me but from some of the most knowledgeable in their field, and we found it's not worth the agravation. and this involved work from ohio,carolina, california,texas,new york and pa. not one thing from me. but you and a few others made it impossible. martin"

I am not stopping you from anything. I am literally nobody in rimfire benchrest. I have never claimed to be anybody. I have only said that I am trying to learn, and I have said that repeatedly. Nobody else is stopping you either. Folks are just sick of the bashing!!!

You can post your findings without bashing others. It is a choice. You must make that choice.

I wish you no ill, as a matter of fact, I wish you all success. I just wish you would stop with the bashing. Perhaps you will be able to advance accuracy. But that advancement will be lost because of the way you currently treat people.

I leave you with this quote from Erastus Wiman, it is useful, and appropriate.

"Nothing is ever lost by courtesy. It is the cheapest of the pleasures; costs nothing and conveys much. It pleases him who gives and; him who receives, and thus, like mercy, it is twice blessed."
- Erastus Wiman

Wishing you the best,
Greg

P.S. I almost forgot the reason I started this with the quote from you that I used. Justathought is not Beau. No kidding. He really is who he says he is, and he has said it it in his profile. He joined up at rimfireaccuracy.com using his actual name. I can understand why it seemed like Beau, they write with a very similar style, I believe the style is called APA. Beau and I have talked about the similarity.

But again, Justathought is not Beau.
 
Michael/sideburn, on Dec. 19th, 1988 from laguardia we took pan am clipper maid of the sea to Frankfurt GR. from there to west berlin, stayed at the American hotel. after many meetings a procurement specialist asked how I was there? meaning everyone was in their 70's and 80's, my answer I listened to smart people. Michael I was lucky enough to visit most of Europe on business, saw the protests and riots at check point charlie same at brandenburg gate. had east Gr guards point their rifles at me standing on bleachers looking down into the rotunda. same soccer field where a small grave was set up where the east germans had murdered those that tried to cross the river and climb the bank including a 12 year old boy. Michael if you want to stay where you are for the next 25 years keep talking down to everyone including strangers. martin

You are so misguided I wouldn't know where to begin. I never mentioned anything with regards to turnip drivers vs. non-turnip drivers or whatever point you were making there and I certainly wasn't talking down to you. I simply said you were missing the point of this forum. Your post is point in fact. Perhaps with you everyone is a foregone conclusion but I encourage you to read my post again.

If I've learned anything from this forum as of recent is that if Martin doesn't agree with you or misunderstands your point, watch out - attacks ensue that are off-topic.

Seems you should take your own advice.
 
Side-burn or what ever your name is..... Martin has been taking insults before i came along. Maybe you don't know who the haters are.... anyone that gets off topic would be a good start for a "hater".


I am glad to see Martin hold his ground. Ask a tuning question and i bet you get Martin's best answer. Ask or comment on BS and i bet you get his best answer. Most have been on here long enough they have forget what this forum is about -rimfire.

You have stumbled across a site where haters meet up and bash each other, it's their sport. Don't eat eggs and b*tch because it ain't steak. Moderators are here but they join in on the hate - yea a funny deal for me to.

I shot a couple of cases of ammo this year built several rifles... gonna take a drill bit in a few days to a good bbl and see how much chambering really matters. I've met nice people here, haters to - it's just like life -take the good with the bad. joe
 
I majored in Electrical Engineering, with a minor in math and physics. My career is spent working out problems to +3 sigma confidence to ensure the millions my company spends will be money well spent. I just spent the last 9 months of my life looking at one project, crunching data and running analysis for days on end. There are often misguided and 'kindergarten' approaches to prove a hypothesis in these forums. People often draw conclusions on data that is suspect, riddled with error and completely void of process. Furthermore, most lack the necessary equipment to adequately conduct such experiments in a manner conducive to true scientific methods. Not to mentioned the aforementioned equipment is often expensive to own and maintain calibration.

But, I think you're missing the point. These forums are intended for discussion among our peers of benchrest shooters and light technical dialogue about what seems to work and what does not. It's about what's new on the horizon and which setup seems to yield the best results or for that matter, where to get the coolest gear for a reasonable price.

Trust me, leave the science to real scientists and quit using the data here or elsewhere as raw, unquestionable fact.

Cheers,
Michael

Eureka! Finally, a degree'd engineer who don't have his head up his ass. Talk English here, if most folks are like me, they can't wade through all the minutae. The last time I sat in a classroom was june, 1964, and no, it didn't have a dirt floor, but I can't hardly remember a single thing the teacher said. Some of it must had rubbed off because I can read and write and add 2 plus 2, but all this real highly technical stuff has me scratching my head. Thanks, Douglas
 
greg/404tbang, you and everyone on billie/beau forum knows that I have not and never will post on that forum, simple reason in my mind it would lend credibility to it and it has no credibility. questions on that forum only get ignored not answered. martin
 
Side-burn or what ever your name is..... Martin has been taking insults before i came along. Maybe you don't know who the haters are.... anyone that gets off topic would be a good start for a "hater".


I am glad to see Martin hold his ground. Ask a tuning question and i bet you get Martin's best answer. Ask or comment on BS and i bet you get his best answer. Most have been on here long enough they have forget what this forum is about -rimfire.

You have stumbled across a site where haters meet up and bash each other, it's their sport. Don't eat eggs and b*tch because it ain't steak. Moderators are here but they join in on the hate - yea a funny deal for me to.

I shot a couple of cases of ammo this year built several rifles... gonna take a drill bit in a few days to a good bbl and see how much chambering really matters. I've met nice people here, haters to - it's just like life -take the good with the bad. joe

Joe:

you may be correct telling people to take it for what it is; but--------when nothing meaningful and i mean nothing ever comes out of all of these threads then its just plain silly to continue. do all these people realize how many thousands of words have been written in the recent past pertaining to this tuner stuff with nothing coming out of it but bashing. if people were getting something good between the bashing then maybe it wouldn't be a total waste. but as it is---------
 
Joe:

you may be correct telling people to take it for what it is; but--------when nothing meaningful and i mean nothing ever comes out of all of these threads then its just plain silly to continue. do all these people realize how many thousands of words have been written in the recent past pertaining to this tuner stuff with nothing coming out of it but bashing. if people were getting something good between the bashing then maybe it wouldn't be a total waste. but as it is---------

Gary, this is a tough nut to crack, by the end of 2011 tuning will be put to bed, too many shooters from all over are working on this. martin
 
Joe:

you may be correct telling people to take it for what it is; but--------when nothing meaningful and i mean nothing ever comes out of all of these threads then its just plain silly to continue. do all these people realize how many thousands of words have been written in the recent past pertaining to this tuner stuff with nothing coming out of it but bashing. if people were getting something good between the bashing then maybe it wouldn't be a total waste. but as it is---------

ya just gotta hang in there.... everyone has different ideas
I never thought i would cut up one of my tuners -but here is a Harrel cut to 4.6 0z. Yea i been here before -got lost and now i'm back. I'm hoping my rifle will be more repeatable in different conditions.

I do read the tuning threads searching for new ideas. There is a lot of hate but i do learn new ideas.
Here is my first testing with a 4.6 oz tuner from today. I think i'm about 275 on my Harrel -5 shots @ 50y. Nothing to brag about and 1 group ain't nothing. I had 10+ less than .200 when i got out past 250 clicks.
I feel like you have to shoot enough you understand what your looking at.
We have a good smith on here, he ain't saying much -to bad. joe

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We have a good smith on here, he ain't saying much -to bad. joe


He didn't start this thread for it to become a mess, he was going to pass along his knowledge, agree with what you want and don't agree with what you want. He would answer any questions anyone had but he didn't want to be told what to do and who to agree with . Why can we ask questions and listen ? He doesn't want to be told this works or that works, he was just trying to pass along his wisdom. His rifles speak on their own.

Wonder why the gunsmiths that read this forum don't post ........

There are too many people here spouting their horn and have never shot or built a winning rifle
 
you're a "Lucky Man" if you have three rifle that will shoot any ammo good ,No it was anything? I've got one that will do that, the only problem is I can't it anything with it .
Martin , you know the "Vinton County Flash" Jerry Graves shot a factory barrel on a 40x for years and won about everything with it too.
I wonder if those old factory barrels have about the same inside dimensions as these new " MI Barrels" ?

Foster.

Foster, used the wrong term: " they won't shoot in a bucket". martin
 
Well, you got Martin Hammond and he agg'd a 1654.0476 in ARA for 2010.
 
hey Joe sent that out today you should have it wednesday!!!! you need to clear some pm's, might be a bit early but who knows if these lightened tuners just might start showing up at the barn. folks that would be awesome....... probably safe to say after 2011 anyone who mentions the term stopped muzzle in relation to a tuner will just be called plain silly. lol martin forgot this parallel node, silly silly............
 
Gary, this is a tough nut to crack, by the end of 2011 tuning will be put to bed, too many shooters from all over are working on this. martin

I don't know how long tuners have been around in rimfire benchrest but in all that time it hasen't been figured out. and people have been working on it for many years.

i'll make you a friendly bet. it won't be figured out by the end of 2011 or 2020. one thing nobody seems to accept is that there are just to many variables when it comes to shooting a rimfire rifle with the precision we want to obtain. when trying to tune a tuner your always going to be dealing with those variables which are constantly changing making it "probably" impossible to ever find a setting that consistantly works.

we may vary well have come to a place where only better ammo will really make scores go up on a consistant basis. good shooters will always win. everyone else will always be playing catch up. anyone can buy "the best guns" available but the cream of the crop will always come to the top. tuner or no tuner. this stuff is supposed to be fun so why do people have to get into bashing each other? nothing whatsoever is gained by it.
 
Gary, by the end of 2011 it will be widely understood to set your tuner,never touch your scope and pretty much use any speed of eley black box with good results, and that's just the way bench shooting will be.............. and Gary I hope it's starts this weekend at the barn, not sure yet but I hope so....................................
 
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