Outlaw Rimfire Matches

R

RLB 40X

Guest
With prices of everything going up, gas, bullets, food ,motels it is hard to justify traveling 400 mile to stay over nite, to pay $50 to $100 to enter a match to shoot up $100 worth of ammo to win a $20 plaqe or a $1.00 match pin.and chase a meaningless stat line.I think big money matches would draw a big croud,and clubs could still get a nice cut,we could not play without our clubs! somthing like $75.00 entery, 40 shooters =$3000 $1,000 to the club and a $2.000 purse divided however you like.if people will drive to win nothing, think how many would show up for a $1.000 first place prize! talk about serious compition and well tuned guns! will still shoot a few sanctioned matches not trying to cut thier throat,but i think a few of these around the country would be a big draw. think about a outlaw nationals,more shooters more entery fee,bigger purse,first place $2,000 everybody would be paying very close attenion,just somthing to think about,what do you think?:)
 
Large Prizes

I think 80 percent of the shooters would feel like they are subsidizing the elite and a few would drop out. Folks might start to feel differently about competing side by side with someone in the business. Some of the competitors I know have a hard enough time covering the cost of equipment and travel to shoot in a big match. They are there to enjoy the match, not get rich. I'd vote no. This may sound stupid, but personally I'd feel wrong taking folk’s money if I won. If the money came from shooting suppliers I'd feel different.

Mark
 
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There have been money matches in the past. Usually, they are held as a sideshoot after the regular match. Not everyone participates. A big money match might get all the top dogs together but it wouldn't be a "big" match so it couldn't be that lucrative to the winner. Most of us know our place in the shooting pecking order and I, for one, wouldn't bet on myself in a match like that.
 
RLB, Here in Ohio thats all there used to be outlaw matches.This past Saturday night they had one in Athens they shoot the old br-50 targets the winner paid $20 entry and won $146.00 not a lot but more than paid for the gas and ammo.This is what got all of us to shoot sancationed matches.So my vote would be a big yes.
 
there wouldent be 39 loosers if you went back 3-5 spots. and yes I have been beet by harry ,Dj and many other very good shooters.for the past couple of years i can think of no one two or ten people that have dominated, lots of different winners.I remember listening to john r from mishigan tell of sutch matches,where he would burn down the road in his camero on weekends in the early 70s going to them.
 
Sounds like fun, we have discussed(Chris and I )the same here in Texas....Don i know you and Darrel would show up for a match :D
As well as Danny and Scotty.


B.J.Hilliard
 
More matches more fun. This type of thing goes on all the time from center fire IBS money shoot to winter league cash payback. You just have to spread the wealth, so to speak, to keep interest up. Pay the big winner but offer $ for match winners, best target, etc. which will keep a few folks in it and interested.
 
In the past

BJ:
We held several matches like that in the past, and just might do it again. The main problem, was we could never get a solid commitment from a lot of the shooters, so it would wind up being just amost the few club shooters. We need to try the, rotate the shooter, not the equipment again.
 
I never thought of myself as an outlaw . . .

But: I dumped centerfire ten years ago (because I was going deaf) and started looking for a rimfire game that I could introduce to a couple of clubs I belong to.

I ordered targets and rules for each of the RF Associations, and tried to decide on one that would attract "new shooters". I came to the disappointing conclusion that NONE of them had rules that would attract new shooters.

So, what did I do?

I pieced together a set of rules, taken from each of the Associations that I felt would ATTRACT NEW SHOOTERS. Please don't call our shoots "Outlaw". Just call me a Maverick: A term suggesting independence of thought or action.

We are using an award/prize system that had been working well for us in our centerfire and cowboy shoots.

OUR AWARDS SYSTEM: In each of our matches we give "every shooter" an award badge. Who was the gunsmith who said, "Everyone who steps up to the firing line and shoots in a match is a winner" (?).

In our matches the hotshots who win the matches, get bragging rights. No fancy trophies, and plaques are rare.

Half way through the match, before lunch we start selling 50/50 raffle tickets, as the shooters are eating lunch. We have a bunch of shooting related prizes. The shooter who's name is on the first ticket drawn out of the hat, gets his or her choice of half the money pot or, pick of the prizes. That shooter then draws a second name, and that shooter gets pick or the prizes, or maybe the money pot, if the first shooter took a prize. And, so on until all the prizes are gone. Then we go back to shooting the match.

We are trying to attract new shooters. Would you think that by NOT offering fancy awards to the winners, that they will not come back for another match? NO! The hot shots always come back. We got them hooked already. It's the new shooters we are after, and with this system the new shooters DO come back.

Works for us, in this little town in Michigan's Upper Peninsula. In one of our matches last August we had 37 shooters. When the snow melts next spring, we will break that record.

Joe Haller :)

This graphic shows some of our award buttons. Every competitor gets one. The ones glued to a plaque are rare.

5buttonsplaque.jpg
 
You said,

"what do you think?".... I say,
"Build it and they will come". Give it a try. That's the best way to find out.
Gas in the 70's was about .50 a gallon and ammo $1 a box.....
Just my opinion... bill:confused:;)
 
Every sport goes through this stage. We tried the big money matches on the Golf Course a while back. The CGA came to visit and strip every winner of their amateur status. The majority could care less and the matches continued until the IRS got wind of the money payouts. They had no problem with the payouts, as long as Form 1099(taxable income) was filed. A few ignored that form at tax time, and got audited.

It usually comes down to this:

If the majority of shooters in Bench rest Shooting equate prize money to success, a Pro Shooting Tour will follow.

If the majority of shooters equate personal improvement and the sheer fun of competition to success, we will continue to shoot for those little pins and signed quarters. ( I WILL bring quarters this year Dr. Shelton:D)

It would be GREAT if we have enough shooters to support Club Shoots AND Pro Shoots.

It can happen that way. The mens Pro Pocket Billiards tour is open to all. When I played the mini tours, I was more than happy to shell out my money to compete in a field with Johnny Archer and Earl Strickland. I was never "lucky" enough to draw a match against the big names of 9 Ball, but I learned something about the game and competing under pressure.
 
Why do they have to be outlaw matches? Can't it be done at ARA or 50/50 matches? Seems I remember going to a couple of Tournaments that paid out pretty good.

But I agree, I would like to see some pay outs at the matches. Not anything to get rich on, but something to help with the gas and hotel.


Dan Killough
www.killoughshootingsports.com
 
Consider paying down a ways on the order of finish. That will give an average guy a chance at winning something. I have shot against Harry and DJ. I have even beat them on an occasional target 6 or 8 times. We don't talk about the 60 or 80 times they have beat me. While I'm not intimidated by the thought of competing against them, I realize that the odds are stacked against this average shooter. You will have to give the averge shooter a chance to recupe at least some of his entry fees to keep him interested.

Ken
 
I am an outlaw shooting occasionaly with the Maverick-Joe Haller.

Joe has attracted shooters for a long time-I am one of them.

I have looked over the rules and requirements for some og 'the shoots'. I cant inagine spending 40-50 bucks or more to shoot. Some do and they should shoot in those matches.
 
langenc said:
I am an outlaw shooting occasionaly with the Maverick-Joe Haller.

Joe has attracted shooters for a long time-I am one of them.

I have looked over the rules and requirements for some og 'the shoots'. I cant inagine spending 40-50 bucks or more to shoot. Some do and they should shoot in those matches.
Click to expand...

I'm a bit confused by your post. Your going to spend more than $50 to shoot in an IR5050 or ARA Match. Entry fee is $20. Your going to shoot at least 4 boxes of ammo in a 3 target match. Thats another $30 to $60 depending on ammo.

Is the extra $30 of entry fee to shoot for more money the problem?

Just trying to see where your coming from.

IMO, another $30 for a match is a pitance, if you compare it to money invested in equipment needed to compete in benchrest.
 
I do this for the fun of extreme accuracy shooting and the pleasure of competition, not for the pleasure of spending. It's not the paying/winning money that makes it fun. It's the shooting, and sometimes winning, that makes it fun.

JMO,

Ben
 
Just do it

Add a cash option to any match but don't require participation. Charge the "normal" fee for those that don't want to play and more for those in the cash option. The winner gets the "award" and the top competitor(s) that paid the cash option gets the money.

Either way, money shoots work well in some areas and in others are a complete bust.
 
Big Money

It has been a long time since I shot BR but I thought when I saw this topic I could add to it.

Payouts are good and bad. If it was me, it should be an option.

I use to shoot in KY and every Friday night we had informal matches, well money matches. Payouts were optional and when I started I had a 350 buck Remington 540 with a custom barrel and well, the gun and I didn't have a chance. On the line next to me was Calfee's no.1 XP when Darrel owned it and just about every gun there was full custom guns. So I lost a lot some money, but I stopped paying into the payout until I had a chance.

Then I purchased/traded guns until I had one that would compete. Then I started bringing home 50-60 bucks every Friday night and things were good. Until the ammo ran out.

Through it all, I prefer just to pay a fee for the target and take home good targets. I won't even get into the politics of it all.

This game is expensive enough and payout matches are for the guys with the best equipment and largest pockets. I can't imagine there are a lot of new shooters that want to loose their money every week.

Dean
 
Let the Maverick clarify that Outlaw's statement . . .

In our matches UP here in Michigan's Upper Peninsula, we do it a little different. We have a set of four rifle classes, and they are attracting new shooters to the game. We also have a course of fire and match fee schedule that varies to suit each shooters pocket book.

We charge $2.00 per target. 25 shots on the USBR target. For the person on a budget, the cost including ammunition could be less than $7.00. We have a Factory Sporter Class that restricts ammo to not more that $5.00 per box of 50.

We also allow "Reentry". If you are not satisfied with your first target, you can pay another two bucks and shoot again. So that person on a budget might spend $14.00 plus $5.00 for lunch plus gas to get to the range.

BUT: We have FOUR rifle classes. So the shooter who brings a bunch of rifles to the range, could shoot as many as eight targets. Those other classes allow match grade ammo. So: You and I, who are real gun nuts could spend up to $16.00 on match fees, plus as much as $75.00 on ammo. The $5.00 meals are usually pretty good.

Well: We can spend more than that, because we also have a 50-50 draw. One of our lady shooters spent $100 on a 50/50 raffle last August. She also won a CZ rifle with 24X scope worth $490.00. Another lady shooter bought one $2.00 ticket and won a CZ Scout.

Let me say, we are very flexable when it comes to match costs, and we have a wide range when it comes to rifle values. About a dozen of us have Unlimited rifles valued at $1500 to $3500. Most of our shooters have Factory Sporter, Vintage Smallbore and Semi-Auto rifles, valued in a more moderate range. We probably will never have an Outlaw Match with cash prizes for the hot shots. A match like that UP here would attract our four best shooters. Everyone else would stay home.

This system works for us. Our best attendance using this course of fire was 37 shooters. Four years ago we ran 2 RBA & 2 USBR sanctioned matches. Between 6 and 8 shooters in attendance at those matches.

Now some of you would say: "That's not bad": Because you know that the average number of shooters in an RBA or an ARA match is TEN shooters.

What we have UP here is working for us, and our goal for next year is 50 shooters in our August Match. I'll let you know next Fall if we make it.

Joe Haller
 
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I'm with Joe...

I shoot in matches because I like to shoot with other like-minded individuals. I shoot in matches that are fun.

Most of the rimfire matches I have shot in the last few years have been ARA sanctioned. The competitors' rifles are mostly state-of-the-art and most of the competitors are good shooters. I like the people I have shot with in ARA matches.

This year we will have at least a couple of rimfire matches at the Harrison Sportsmans' Club in Harrison, MI. They will not be ARA sanctioned because there just ain't that many ARA shooters. There is no class system so those with factory class rifles have no chance at all.

Last year the club spent a lot of money to make us excellent concrete benches at both 25 and 50 yds. It would take 50 years of ARA matches to get that investment back.

My experience is you need factory rifle shooters to show up and try out your matches. You give the factory winners the same prizes the bench gun shooters get. Some like the shooting and stick to it. Some eventually buy a BR gun and get serious. That's how you grow benchrest shooters. We've done it in centerfire benchrest for sixteen years. We intend to do the same thing in rimfire.

For those who don't live in Michigan, Joe Haller's matches in Sault Ste. Marie are about 2/3 the way to the North Pole. They are fun and I can't say enough about his ability to attract shooters, even if half of them are Eskimos. Based on the number of his shooters and compared to his population base (very few people live in the UP.)... Joe wins the attendence game by a mile. If I had to attend only one or two rimfire matches a year, they would be Joe's.
 
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