Outlaw Rimfire Matches

If all you needed was a seperate class for factory rifles, all you have to do is define the class and buy some trophys. Shoot the ARA match and give out two sets of winners. The perpetual problem with this mentality is that no matter how you define the factory class, someone will start gaming the class. Is a Cooper factory? Mine is factory, I just "fixed" the trigger. Mine is factory, I just had to replace the barrel cause I shot the old one out. I like this stock better....There is no level playing field and anyone that does not have the best equipment, factory or custom, will be at a disadvantage.
 
Sounds like a lot of fun joe.didnt mean to offend anyone with the term (outlaw) i was looking at it like the sprintcar and late model races they call word of outlaws,just a term they use that means NO RULES,race or shoot what you bring.I have been out shooting with friends muzz,centerfire,17s,ars,I have gotten out my benchgun for them to shoot over sand bags and they are amazed at the 50 -100yd groups,the $1400+ I have in my 40x dosent scare them too bad,but then ask:eek:k I spend the money,shoot for a couple years pay my dues and get a win how do they pay? my repliy, little to nothing,all interest is suddenly lost.I still go because i like to shoot and compeate(or try).and then we get a ribbing from our local br 50 MD when he hears of us going down south,up north,out west or where ever(what did you win?how mutch did they pay back?knowing it was little to nothing he laughes and says you guys have more money than me to drive 3 states for bragin rites.this comming year i will continue to pay $30 to shoot up $40 worth of ammo because i love the game!not so mutch traveling though.I would stll like to go to a big match with a big pay back where i know if i did well my trip and ammo would be worth while.Istil dont think it would keep shooters away not wanting to enter.example two rolls of lottery tickets one roll pays the other dosent,they both cost $1, wonder what one will sell out?with so many good rifles on the line and anyone capible of a big win I dont look at it as giving my money to the elite.I think people would try harder than even a national match,just my thoughts,hope everyone had great christmas!
 
You who want to shoot for money should do so.

I will shoot for fun with others who feel the same.

I will make my living in another way.:)
 
This "mentality"

You are right in that shooters will always try to improve their rifles. That's what this sport is about, actually.

When it gets pretty flagrant, we split the factory rifles up into factory (unmodified) and custom (modified) classes and end up shooting three classes.

It's a pain in the arse for any match director because Joe spends a lot of time bitching about Jim's rifle which has a Jewell trigger. At the same time Joe thinks his Hart barrel, action truing, etc, etc, shouldn't keep him out of the pure factory class.

I started running benchrest matches in 1977. I think Joe Haller started before I did. Do you or have you ever run any matches or do you just sit on the sidelines and criticize the "mentality" of those who do?
 
I have run matches...I sure was not critisizing, just pointing out the pitfalls and contentions that trying to run factory matches can bring you.
 
This old man sez . . .

I set up and ran my first benchrest turkey shoot in 1956. First Smallbore Indoor League in 1958. First NRA sanctioned smallbore outdoor tournament in 1959. First club centerfire benchrest tournament in 1959. In that previous Century, we had as many as 75 shooters in sanctioned NRA tournaments and 55 in "local rules" benchrest. AND: Our little town of 15,000 is so far off the beaten path, so folks say you can't get here from there.

When we started NBRSA sanctioned matches in the 1970s, our benchrest match attendance dropped to an average of TEN. In this century, our RBA and USBR sanctioned matches never drew more that EIGHT.

I've tested a lot of ideas to attract new shooters to our local matches over the years. When you are not tied to the rules of a National Association, you are free to do that.

It makes me sad to say this, but the only events we have run that attracted LOTS of shooters were run under NRA Sanction. Put another way: "I think rules of all the benchrest associations SUCK".

If the rules don't change the sport won't grow. But: Seems like some benchrest shooters are happy just shooting officially sanctioned matches with a half dozen other guys. I know it is easier to run a match when you don't have a crowd. That may be the best reason to leave the official sanctioned rules as they are

Joe Haller.
 
We pay out cash for every match. The tournaments are paid double. At the end of the season when they receive their plaques they receive more cash given to all competitors.

If someone is shooting a sporter or heavy sporter they also receive cash for that class and high targets shot.

Its 1 dollar a target no matter what, juniors are free. There is cash for each high target shot, and ARA pins not the stars. The top winner in a regular match can walk away with 50 dollars. In the tournaments there is no pay for lunch, and the top winner can walk away with 120 dollars. I exclude myself of any winnings and plaques.

WE know this game is expensive, and even though we shoot for fun, a little pay back is also rewarding to the shooters. We will be adding for next year any record target shot will get a bonus and a perfect score will receive 100 dollars.

We decided to have this venue for the shooters, not to be impressive but to give back to the shooters.

Take Care.......Joe
 
I used to do the HP game. Did I ever win? I had the proverbial snow ball's chance but I shot any way. "Why", you ask, "if you know you're not going to win any thing?"
"Because I enjoy shooting and more importantly, the comeraderie." The object is, win, lose or draw, have a good time.
Just my $.02 worth.
Jon
 
Mr. Turner...

You are exactly right. You shoot because you like to shoot and like to do so with your friends. Winning something once in a while is nice but not the main point.

A month ago we had a meeting at the local club that was attended by the 2007 Benchrest Shooter of the Year and the 2007 Super Shoot winner. They came to help us plan our 2008 season because they both know that the heart and soul of benchrest shooting is the club match and the shooters who attend big matches despite having little chance of winning anything. At the Super Shoot there's probably twenty or thirty people who have a realistic chance of winning. It wouldn't be very super without the other 300+ who show up and do their best, would it?
 
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Dick

Dick Wright said:
You are right in that shooters will always try to improve their rifles. That's what this sport is about, actually.

When it gets pretty flagrant, we split the factory rifles up into factory (unmodified) and custom (modified) classes and end up shooting three classes.

It's a pain in the arse for any match director because Joe spends a lot of time bitching about Jim's rifle which has a Jewell trigger. At the same time Joe thinks his Hart barrel, action truing, etc, etc, shouldn't keep him out of the pure factory class.

I started running benchrest matches in 1977. I think Joe Haller started before I did. Do you or have you ever run any matches or do you just sit on the sidelines and criticize the "mentality" of those who do?
Click to expand...

Your post raised a question and I'm not sure what it is but will try to ask it anyway.

On a national basis, would you trust without question the decision of any match director concerning the differentation of rifles (what goes where)? Consider that something like world records are involved.
 
Wilbur

It would depend on who the match director is. If it were you, the answer is an unqualified "Yes". I know a couple of people running matches who would cheat their ancient mother out of her social security check.

When I'm involved our matches are unregistered. The NBRSA doesn't sanction VFS which is and always has been a major part of our program. I refuse to live with a couple of the IBS's really silly rules. Obviously records are not available at an unregistered match but I don't know anybody skipping our matches for that reason.

I'm the only one so far that has been hurt at our range by shooting a score that couldn't be considered for a record. I shot a .161" agg. in 5 shot UL when the IBS record was .174". I didn't care that much because I have the targets and I know that, at one time, it qualified for a record had the match been registered. That record has been broken since when Bart shot a more realistic .139". Kroop shot a .125" agg at our place last year but it was in practice rather than a match. The record, if there were more matches fired in 5 shot UL, should be around the .125" area or even smaller.

I just reread your question... It's easy to make sure that bench guns are legal. It's in the rule book. Keeping Factory and Custom Class separate is a pain but there are no records so it probably isn't too important. Mr. Matzeder (above) is right in that someone will always game the system. We solve it locally by having the match committee reserve the right to move any rifle up in class. When asked who the match committee is, the answer is, "ME!" (In OCS I learned to say that in a manner that doesn't get questioned.)

I'm kinda rambling here... I hope I've answered your question. I don't see the organizations sanctioning factory or custom classes. It would require a thick rule book and there would be a huge temptation to cheat.
 
More...

There is a need for a factory class. This is best evidenced by the ARA. They have the best rule book in that it's really simple. A legal rifle has to shoot factory made .22 Long Rifle ammo... period. There's no quibbling about rules cause there's very few rules. Their rifles are every bit as sophisticated as our centerfire guns. A lot of them have one piece rests that make them into quasi-rail guns.

The down side is practically no one shows up except the few shooters who have made an investment in a really expensive gun. Attendance is quite low compared to our centerfire matches which allow newbies to shoot their varmint rifles.

We are reluctant to have any more classes than factory, custom and benchrest. We will never have matches with a dozen shooters competing to win five different classes. When this happens winning anything except 1st in the BR class becomes meaningless.
 
Joe,

The buttons are a great Idea!!!

Where can I get a kit to make them?

I applaud your efforts to grow the sport. We've held our heads above water here by catering to Plinker Class shooters who also compete as Unlimited class shooters for the same money. If the regular Unlimited shooter turnout isn't great, or if a few don't have the best day, a careful Plinker often picks up a second or third place.

Most Plinker shooters use customized 10-22s, though non-match grade bolt-action sporters can also shoot. Scope power is relegated to the lowest maximum power of any Plinker shooter showing up that match, though most have a minimum of 14x. The Plinker shooters use mostly Wolf MT, or ME.

If someone shoots over 240 a couple of times, that rifle will usually get booted up to Unlimited. The Plinker class is for beginners or people looking to get the most out of their relatively inexpensive sporters. No "dedicated" benchrest sporters are allowed, but we don't limit the modifications that people make in their rifles.

This year, I'm thinking we'll decide to shoot a few plinker matches where everyone will have to shoot the same lower-priced ammo. We may even try a match where we swap rifles and ammo - by draw. That might be very interesting. ;)

John
 
Rifle Swap

We did that a few years ago with centerfire benchrest rifles, and everyone liked it. A sticker with a number was places on each rifle. We all drew numbers. If we drew our own rifle we had to draw again. It was called "The Luck of the Draw Match".

Fred: How did you run yours as a "money match".
 
50, 30, 20

Pay back all the fees, to those that partispate. Others that show up and don't want to partisipate are just there for practice, and would pay a seperate range fee. It has to be a fun match not linked to any organization. I have used it as a seperate from ARA match several times.
 
Hi John Pitcher:

Several years ago I saw some 2 1/4 inch plastic badges in the craft department at Walmart. Cost about 90 cents each. I tried making a few round graphics on my computer, cut them out and popped them into the badges. They went over big with the shooters. Each month I would come up with a new design for our matches.

Then a couple of years ago I read here on BRC that one of our good BR gunsmiths said:
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"Everyone who steps up the line and shoots in a match is a winner. The only loosers are the ones who don't come out to the match".
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Wish I could remember who said that. Maybe someone else remembers.

I though it was profound. Talked to some of the club officers about it and decided to give award badge to EVERYONE who steps up to the line and shoots in our matches.

In fact we don't give out award to the winners anymore. We put that extra money into range improvements. The match winners still come back for more. Well: OK. They are all winners, right? The "Match" winners get bragging rights, but no fancy wood plaques or trophies They all come back for more, and they are bringing their wives and girlfriends with them.

Here are some examples of my "art work".

Joe

12Badges.jpg
 
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That's Neat!!!

Now Joe a big question for you. What class are we going to shoot the new Ruger Challenger Pistol in:eek:????
 
John: I’m running out of design ideas for those badges.

Ruger Challenger Pistol?

I don’t know about about setting up a class for pistols in our local benchrest matches. We did have a small number of pistols shooting in the RFC On-Line Matches when we started, back seven years ago. The TC Contenders did fairly well at 25 yards, but with no special class for them, they faded away.

In small local matches, a club is not able to break out several classes, as the number of shooters is so small. Ya gota have NUMBERS before ya can promote classes. To get the numbers ya gota have classes. Like the chicken or the egg: Which comes first?

When we set up the RFC On-Line-Matches, we started getting numbers real quick. In the third year we had 114 shooters in one month. That was when I decided Classes would work for us. I did not feel it would work on the local club level, but pulling in shooters from many States, Canada, England and Brazil: It works. Now we have four classes in the matches: Unlimited, Vintage Smallbore, SemiAuto and Factory Sporter.

Now, our little club here in da U.P. is able to do the four classe too, because we are getting the NUMBERS. If we had a few more benches, we might think about adding a pistol class to our local match course of fire.

Joe :)
 
Dick

You did answer my question in its entirety. It was loaded (always) and you fielded it perfectly.

There exists some conflict with the factory/plinker/beginner class. We all want it but when faced with the setup there seems to be no solution. Add a single rule and it begins to go south...add another and it's gone...
 
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