S
schmidp4811
Guest
outlaw matches
Joe,
How do you define "Vintage" and "Sporter"
Joe,
How do you define "Vintage" and "Sporter"
J
Joe Haller
Guest
Vintage and Sporter . . .
Hello schmidp4811:
Here at our club and on RFC we started the Factory Sporter Class four years ago. I will tell you about the Factory Sporter class in another post.
Below is information on our Vintage Smallbore Class, which we started here at our club and on RFC last October.
Last summer I had been thinking of all the smallbore rifles that CPM has been selling, since the Clinton Administration and the EPA closed down so many indoor ranges. Those great old smallbore rifles that had been used in NRA Prone and Position matches, all over the country: Where are they? Sitting in gun safes.
And why? Because the ROTC and Junior rifle teams are shut down, or are now shooting air guns. These great old rifles are not quite good enough to compete with the custom rifles in our benchrest matches: Unless they are customized at a cost of about $1200 to $1500.
I talked the idea up over on RFC about creating a set of rules that would allow this rifle to shoot in our RFC On-Line Matches. (And in our local matches)
Here is want we came up with:
1. WEIGHT: No restrictions on weight, but the rifle must not exceed the original factory weight. No additional weight allowed.
2. STOCKS: Must have original stock. Or: If the stock as been modified or the original stock has been replaced with a custom, a factory stock of the same type as the original may be used. Glass bedding is allowed.
3. BARREL: Rifle must have original barrel, with no barrel tuner. The factory barrel may be shortened and recrowned. Rechambering is not allowed.
4. SCOPE POWER: No restriction on scope power.
5. TRIGGER: Must be mechanical. No electric or remote triggers. Trigger parts/springs or custom triggers may be installed for a light pull. Must be safe.
6. RESTS: Front and rear rests, not connected and filled with sand. Windage and elevation adjustments are allowed on the front rest. BiPod front rest allowed. A large single sand bag of the "Bulls Bag" type would be allowed.
7. AMMUNITION: Not to exceed $11.00 per box of 50. Price will be before shipping or taxes.
(No Eley Red Box, Lapua Midas or RWS R50)
Prices listed on the Champion Shooters Supply Website will be our "standard price list".
The Champion Shooters Supply website:
http://www.championshooters.com/index-ssl.html
Click on "Ammunition" on the left side of the home page.
Discontinued match grade ammunition is considered to be in the same price range as similar ammunition in current production. (No Federal 1000 A or B).
With the cost of ammunition rising: We will adjust prices in the future.
8. RESTRICTIONS: Any rifle with a benchrest type stock or a custom action or a factory action that has been "blueprinted" will not be allowed in this class. A benchrest stock is one that has a foreend with a flat bottom, more than 2.7 inches wide, and/or has the bottom of the buttstock parallel or near parallel to the bottom of the foreend.
----------------------------------------------
Other rules that apply are General Rules for the RFC On-Line Matches.
---------------------------------------------
9. From the front edge of the bench to the face of the target: 25 yards.
10. A maximum of 20 minutes is allowed to fire all sighter shots and one shot at each of the 25 record bulls.
11. If a rifle fits the rules for more than one rifle class, you may enter the rifle in each of those classes. Before you start a target, you write the rifle class on the target and enter that score in that rifle class. Do not enter that score in more than one match. You may shoot a maximum four targets per month in each rifle class where the rifle fits the rules. Post your best score(s) in the correct match thread for the month.
12. You may shoot more than one rifle each month: Not more that four targets per rifle.
13. You may shoot on an indoor range from December to March. If you shoot indoors: Type (INDOORS) at the beginning of the third line of your score report. Because it is HOT in our Southern States in the Summer (And in Australia and South American,in our winter): Anyone who has access to a 25 and or 50 yard indoor range, may shoot the RFC matches INDOORS, as long as they indicate "INDOORS" in their score reports."
14. Junior Shooters: The minimum age of a young person allowed in these competitions will be determined by the parent. A Junior shooter is a young persons who has not reached the age of 18. If your are a Junior: Type (Age 14): Or whatever your age, at the end of the first line of your score report.
15. If you have a screen name: Put that at the end of the first line: (RedNeck)
----------------------------------------------
Feel free to post details of your equipment, weather reports and excuses. Posting encouragement and a little kidding as we have done in the past would be a good thing too.
----------------------------------------------
Format Example:
249-15x John Doe. Columbia, South Carolina. (RedNeck)
Suhl 150. Weaver T-36. Eley Black Box.
Factory barrel. 2 oz. trigger. McMillan stock. Cowen front rest.
Sunny day. 5 mph wind: 3 to 5 o'clock
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I will give you information on our FACTORY SPORTER Class in another post.
Joe Haller
Hello schmidp4811:
Here at our club and on RFC we started the Factory Sporter Class four years ago. I will tell you about the Factory Sporter class in another post.
Below is information on our Vintage Smallbore Class, which we started here at our club and on RFC last October.
Last summer I had been thinking of all the smallbore rifles that CPM has been selling, since the Clinton Administration and the EPA closed down so many indoor ranges. Those great old smallbore rifles that had been used in NRA Prone and Position matches, all over the country: Where are they? Sitting in gun safes.
And why? Because the ROTC and Junior rifle teams are shut down, or are now shooting air guns. These great old rifles are not quite good enough to compete with the custom rifles in our benchrest matches: Unless they are customized at a cost of about $1200 to $1500.
I talked the idea up over on RFC about creating a set of rules that would allow this rifle to shoot in our RFC On-Line Matches. (And in our local matches)
Here is want we came up with:
1. WEIGHT: No restrictions on weight, but the rifle must not exceed the original factory weight. No additional weight allowed.
2. STOCKS: Must have original stock. Or: If the stock as been modified or the original stock has been replaced with a custom, a factory stock of the same type as the original may be used. Glass bedding is allowed.
3. BARREL: Rifle must have original barrel, with no barrel tuner. The factory barrel may be shortened and recrowned. Rechambering is not allowed.
4. SCOPE POWER: No restriction on scope power.
5. TRIGGER: Must be mechanical. No electric or remote triggers. Trigger parts/springs or custom triggers may be installed for a light pull. Must be safe.
6. RESTS: Front and rear rests, not connected and filled with sand. Windage and elevation adjustments are allowed on the front rest. BiPod front rest allowed. A large single sand bag of the "Bulls Bag" type would be allowed.
7. AMMUNITION: Not to exceed $11.00 per box of 50. Price will be before shipping or taxes.
(No Eley Red Box, Lapua Midas or RWS R50)
Prices listed on the Champion Shooters Supply Website will be our "standard price list".
The Champion Shooters Supply website:
http://www.championshooters.com/index-ssl.html
Click on "Ammunition" on the left side of the home page.
Discontinued match grade ammunition is considered to be in the same price range as similar ammunition in current production. (No Federal 1000 A or B).
With the cost of ammunition rising: We will adjust prices in the future.
8. RESTRICTIONS: Any rifle with a benchrest type stock or a custom action or a factory action that has been "blueprinted" will not be allowed in this class. A benchrest stock is one that has a foreend with a flat bottom, more than 2.7 inches wide, and/or has the bottom of the buttstock parallel or near parallel to the bottom of the foreend.
----------------------------------------------
Other rules that apply are General Rules for the RFC On-Line Matches.
---------------------------------------------
9. From the front edge of the bench to the face of the target: 25 yards.
10. A maximum of 20 minutes is allowed to fire all sighter shots and one shot at each of the 25 record bulls.
11. If a rifle fits the rules for more than one rifle class, you may enter the rifle in each of those classes. Before you start a target, you write the rifle class on the target and enter that score in that rifle class. Do not enter that score in more than one match. You may shoot a maximum four targets per month in each rifle class where the rifle fits the rules. Post your best score(s) in the correct match thread for the month.
12. You may shoot more than one rifle each month: Not more that four targets per rifle.
13. You may shoot on an indoor range from December to March. If you shoot indoors: Type (INDOORS) at the beginning of the third line of your score report. Because it is HOT in our Southern States in the Summer (And in Australia and South American,in our winter): Anyone who has access to a 25 and or 50 yard indoor range, may shoot the RFC matches INDOORS, as long as they indicate "INDOORS" in their score reports."
14. Junior Shooters: The minimum age of a young person allowed in these competitions will be determined by the parent. A Junior shooter is a young persons who has not reached the age of 18. If your are a Junior: Type (Age 14): Or whatever your age, at the end of the first line of your score report.
15. If you have a screen name: Put that at the end of the first line: (RedNeck)
----------------------------------------------
Feel free to post details of your equipment, weather reports and excuses. Posting encouragement and a little kidding as we have done in the past would be a good thing too.
----------------------------------------------
Format Example:
249-15x John Doe. Columbia, South Carolina. (RedNeck)
Suhl 150. Weaver T-36. Eley Black Box.
Factory barrel. 2 oz. trigger. McMillan stock. Cowen front rest.
Sunny day. 5 mph wind: 3 to 5 o'clock
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I will give you information on our FACTORY SPORTER Class in another post.
Joe Haller
J
Joe Haller
Guest
Hello Mr. Wright 
Yes, your Winchester M-75 would fit in our Vintage Smallbore Class. If it would weight no more that 8.5 pounds, with that 10X Unertl, and the stock has not been modified (lightened) it could also be shot in our Factory Sporter Class.
I am going to explain our Factory Sporter Class in my next post here in this thread.
Joe
Yes, your Winchester M-75 would fit in our Vintage Smallbore Class. If it would weight no more that 8.5 pounds, with that 10X Unertl, and the stock has not been modified (lightened) it could also be shot in our Factory Sporter Class.
I am going to explain our Factory Sporter Class in my next post here in this thread.
Joe
J
Joe Haller
Guest
The RFC Factory Sporter Class
We started Rimfire matches here in Sault Ste. Marie and down in Mission, Texas in 1999. We got the RFC On-Line-Matches going in 2001. Like ARA, we had ONE class. At that time most of our shooters were using Ruger 10/22s and CZ 452s. We had as many as 114 shooters in one month, but in our third year, the attendance started to drop off. The reason was a slow migration to unlimited rifles. Some moved up and others just dropped out. So, in our fourth year we decided to add classes for Factory Sporters and Semi-Autos. No special rules or restriction for the semi-autos. Most of the ones in the matches had been "tricked out". The light unmodified Rugers would be able to shoot in the Factory Sporter Class
Here are the rules we came up with for our Factory Sporter Class. We put restrictions on the equipment as we did not want to lead the shooters into an Equipment Race with custom stuff.
1. Rifle Value: May not exceed the “NiB” (New in Box) BlueBook value of $500.00. A list of eligible rifles will be compiled. If you are not sure of the value of your rifle: Shoot it anyway. We will tell you if it meets the $500.00 rule.
2. Weight must not exceed 8.5 lbs with scope or iron sights attached.
3. Must have the original factory barrel, and stock. Butt stock may be cut back to fit a Lady or Junior shooter. Barrel must not be rechambered or cut back. Recrowning is allowed.
4. Free floating the barrel and glass/pillar bedding is allowed. Upward pressure on the barrel with shims/glass is allowed. Tuners at the muzzle or screw type tuners in the stock are not allowed. Any labor charge by a gunsmith will not be included in the $500.00 limit.
5. Triggers must be safe. Trigger tuning is allowed. Aftermarket triggers or parts are allowed if the cost of trigger/parts, when added to the blue book vaulue of the rifle, does not exceed $500.00. Any labor charge by a gunsmith will not be included in the $500.00 limit.
6. Scope sights will be limited to not more than 24 power. No limit on the cost of the scope, or iron sights. Diopter lenses are allowed in iron sights,
7. Rests: Elevation and windage adjustments on rests must not be moved after the first sighter shot. A bipod may be attached to the rifle. It will not be included in the 8.5 lb. weight limit.
8. Ammunition Value: 22 Long Rifle Rimfire ammunition must not exceed $6.00 per box of 50 or $60.00 per brick of 500, before transportation or taxes.
9. If a rifle fits the rules for more than one rifle class, you may enter the rifle in each of those classes. Before you start a target, you write the rifle class on the target and enter that score in that rifle class. Do not enter that score in more than one match. You may shoot a maximum four targets per month in each rifle class where the rifle fits the rules. Post your best score(s) in the correct match thread for the month.
10. Box Stock Rifles: The rifle must meet the ,22 Factory Sporter rules, and may not exceed the “NiB” (New in Box) BlueBook value of $500.00: No modifications to the rifle, the trigger, or the bedding. The rifle must be as it came out of the box from the factory. If you shoot a (BOX STOCK) rifle in this class: At the begining of the third line of your score entry: Type (BOX STOCK).
----------------------------------------------
Format Example:
238-3x Bill Holladay. Cody, Wyoming. (Age 12)
CZ 452 American. Bushnell 4-12X. Eley Yellow Box.
Brookie Trigger kit. Free floated barrel. No glass bedding.
Misty rain. Shot under a covered firing line. Dad changed targets.
----------------------------------------------
Another Format Example:
229-1x Sam Spade. New York, New York
Marlin M-25. Tasco 6-24X. CCI Standard.
(BOX STOCK) Front rest was a cement block with a folded up hunting shirt on top. Rear rest wasa shot bag full of sand.
Excuse: First time I ever shot in a match like this.
----------------------------------------------
We started Rimfire matches here in Sault Ste. Marie and down in Mission, Texas in 1999. We got the RFC On-Line-Matches going in 2001. Like ARA, we had ONE class. At that time most of our shooters were using Ruger 10/22s and CZ 452s. We had as many as 114 shooters in one month, but in our third year, the attendance started to drop off. The reason was a slow migration to unlimited rifles. Some moved up and others just dropped out. So, in our fourth year we decided to add classes for Factory Sporters and Semi-Autos. No special rules or restriction for the semi-autos. Most of the ones in the matches had been "tricked out". The light unmodified Rugers would be able to shoot in the Factory Sporter Class
Here are the rules we came up with for our Factory Sporter Class. We put restrictions on the equipment as we did not want to lead the shooters into an Equipment Race with custom stuff.
1. Rifle Value: May not exceed the “NiB” (New in Box) BlueBook value of $500.00. A list of eligible rifles will be compiled. If you are not sure of the value of your rifle: Shoot it anyway. We will tell you if it meets the $500.00 rule.
2. Weight must not exceed 8.5 lbs with scope or iron sights attached.
3. Must have the original factory barrel, and stock. Butt stock may be cut back to fit a Lady or Junior shooter. Barrel must not be rechambered or cut back. Recrowning is allowed.
4. Free floating the barrel and glass/pillar bedding is allowed. Upward pressure on the barrel with shims/glass is allowed. Tuners at the muzzle or screw type tuners in the stock are not allowed. Any labor charge by a gunsmith will not be included in the $500.00 limit.
5. Triggers must be safe. Trigger tuning is allowed. Aftermarket triggers or parts are allowed if the cost of trigger/parts, when added to the blue book vaulue of the rifle, does not exceed $500.00. Any labor charge by a gunsmith will not be included in the $500.00 limit.
6. Scope sights will be limited to not more than 24 power. No limit on the cost of the scope, or iron sights. Diopter lenses are allowed in iron sights,
7. Rests: Elevation and windage adjustments on rests must not be moved after the first sighter shot. A bipod may be attached to the rifle. It will not be included in the 8.5 lb. weight limit.
8. Ammunition Value: 22 Long Rifle Rimfire ammunition must not exceed $6.00 per box of 50 or $60.00 per brick of 500, before transportation or taxes.
9. If a rifle fits the rules for more than one rifle class, you may enter the rifle in each of those classes. Before you start a target, you write the rifle class on the target and enter that score in that rifle class. Do not enter that score in more than one match. You may shoot a maximum four targets per month in each rifle class where the rifle fits the rules. Post your best score(s) in the correct match thread for the month.
10. Box Stock Rifles: The rifle must meet the ,22 Factory Sporter rules, and may not exceed the “NiB” (New in Box) BlueBook value of $500.00: No modifications to the rifle, the trigger, or the bedding. The rifle must be as it came out of the box from the factory. If you shoot a (BOX STOCK) rifle in this class: At the begining of the third line of your score entry: Type (BOX STOCK).
----------------------------------------------
Format Example:
238-3x Bill Holladay. Cody, Wyoming. (Age 12)
CZ 452 American. Bushnell 4-12X. Eley Yellow Box.
Brookie Trigger kit. Free floated barrel. No glass bedding.
Misty rain. Shot under a covered firing line. Dad changed targets.
----------------------------------------------
Another Format Example:
229-1x Sam Spade. New York, New York
Marlin M-25. Tasco 6-24X. CCI Standard.
(BOX STOCK) Front rest was a cement block with a folded up hunting shirt on top. Rear rest wasa shot bag full of sand.
Excuse: First time I ever shot in a match like this.
----------------------------------------------
S
schmidp4811
Guest
"custom" vs. "factory"
Joe,
In your post on vintage rifles you refer to "custom" vs. "factory" actions....how do you draw the line between custom & factory? Defined by supplier name, or production numbers, or over-the-counter availability, or ???? Thanks
Joe,
In your post on vintage rifles you refer to "custom" vs. "factory" actions....how do you draw the line between custom & factory? Defined by supplier name, or production numbers, or over-the-counter availability, or ???? Thanks
J
Joe Haller
Guest
Vintage Smallbore Rule #8 . . .
Hello again Schmidp:
I suppose you are referring to the first part of Vintage Smallbore rule #8 . . .
8. RESTRICTIONS: Any rifle with a benchrest type stock or a custom action or a factory action that has been "blueprinted" will not be allowed in this class.
A custom action would be a Hall, Turbo, Time, Swindelhurst or other action produced in small quantities, as opposed to production actions such as Remington M-37 - 40X, Winchester 52ABCD, Anschutz 54/64, Walther KK/UIT, Suhl 150 . . . and other actions produced in quantity.
A production action that has been "blueprinted", would be considered a custom action. Blueprinting meaning that the action has been trued by a gunsmith, so that the centerline of the barrel will be true with the centerline of the action. They, according to the rules would be considered custom actions.
The class is for the old Smallbore rifles with wood stocks that where popular in NRA prone and position matches. These have been called "target rifles", but the class is open to sporter rifles, that fit the rules such as the Cooper and Anschutz sporter weight rifles. Those high end sporters have been excluded from our Factory Sporter Class. because Blue Book 100% value on them exceeds $500.
I hope this explanation is a little cleared than mud. And, a question for you: Do you suppose this explanation should be included in our rules?
Joe
Hello again Schmidp:
I suppose you are referring to the first part of Vintage Smallbore rule #8 . . .
8. RESTRICTIONS: Any rifle with a benchrest type stock or a custom action or a factory action that has been "blueprinted" will not be allowed in this class.
A custom action would be a Hall, Turbo, Time, Swindelhurst or other action produced in small quantities, as opposed to production actions such as Remington M-37 - 40X, Winchester 52ABCD, Anschutz 54/64, Walther KK/UIT, Suhl 150 . . . and other actions produced in quantity.
A production action that has been "blueprinted", would be considered a custom action. Blueprinting meaning that the action has been trued by a gunsmith, so that the centerline of the barrel will be true with the centerline of the action. They, according to the rules would be considered custom actions.
The class is for the old Smallbore rifles with wood stocks that where popular in NRA prone and position matches. These have been called "target rifles", but the class is open to sporter rifles, that fit the rules such as the Cooper and Anschutz sporter weight rifles. Those high end sporters have been excluded from our Factory Sporter Class. because Blue Book 100% value on them exceeds $500.
I hope this explanation is a little cleared than mud. And, a question for you: Do you suppose this explanation should be included in our rules?
Joe
Dick Wright
New member
Joe...
Interesting question... My Model 75 is a collector's gun. I'm sure it's worth quite a bit more than $500.00, especially with the Unertl.
When I bought it, in the early 70's, I had Stu Hanson (Saginaw's best amatuer gunsmith) crisp up the trigger for me to about three pounds and had the receiver drilled and tapped for the rear Unertl scope base. The front base slips into the rear sight dovetail. It's been my squirrel rifle ever since.
It has a "Super Grade" stock that came from the Winchester custom shop... with the gun to my knowledge. The stock is similar in shape to a standard M-75 but it was checkered, has a cheekpiece and a black fore end tip just like a Model 70 Super Grade of the period.
I doubt if the gun cost much more than a hundred bucks new. However, that was a long time ago and some guns, unlike their owners, get more valuable as they age.
Alas, it shoots like crazy with Eley Red Box.
O.K. Mr. Frosty... what class you gonna put it in?
Interesting question... My Model 75 is a collector's gun. I'm sure it's worth quite a bit more than $500.00, especially with the Unertl.
When I bought it, in the early 70's, I had Stu Hanson (Saginaw's best amatuer gunsmith) crisp up the trigger for me to about three pounds and had the receiver drilled and tapped for the rear Unertl scope base. The front base slips into the rear sight dovetail. It's been my squirrel rifle ever since.
It has a "Super Grade" stock that came from the Winchester custom shop... with the gun to my knowledge. The stock is similar in shape to a standard M-75 but it was checkered, has a cheekpiece and a black fore end tip just like a Model 70 Super Grade of the period.
I doubt if the gun cost much more than a hundred bucks new. However, that was a long time ago and some guns, unlike their owners, get more valuable as they age.
Alas, it shoots like crazy with Eley Red Box.
O.K. Mr. Frosty... what class you gonna put it in?
J
Joe Haller
Guest
Dick . . .
You are gona go in the Vintage Smallbore Class with that Winchester M-75. No limit on blue book value in the Vintage Smallbore Class.
I don't have my Blue Book handy right now. I will look the value up later. If my memory is not too defective and that 75 is the sporter model, you are WAY over the $500 limit of the Factory Sporter Class.
Joe (Mr. Frosty)
You are gona go in the Vintage Smallbore Class with that Winchester M-75. No limit on blue book value in the Vintage Smallbore Class.
I don't have my Blue Book handy right now. I will look the value up later. If my memory is not too defective and that 75 is the sporter model, you are WAY over the $500 limit of the Factory Sporter Class.
Joe (Mr. Frosty)
S
schmidp4811
Guest
custom vs. factory
Joe,
Thanks for the clarification.....Yes, it would benefit foggy minds like mine to explicitly define the line between custom & factory, whether we're talking actions, barrels, stocks or whatever.
Joe,
Thanks for the clarification.....Yes, it would benefit foggy minds like mine to explicitly define the line between custom & factory, whether we're talking actions, barrels, stocks or whatever.
S
S.Duffin
Guest
Outlaw Match
What is the schedule for the OUTLAW MATCH.Location, time and date.. Thanks..
What is the schedule for the OUTLAW MATCH.Location, time and date.. Thanks..
Dick Wright
New member
"Outlaw matches"
The term actually refers to unregistered matches. Unregistered probably is slightly more politically correct. (That's the first time in my life I've ever suggested anything that might be considered politically correct.) However, the "Outlaw" part might be appropriate if one were referring to some of the competitors.
We have two 2008 matches in Harrison, MI on June 7th and August 9th. Email or PM me for details.
There is normally a match a month at Sault Ste. Marie, MI in the U.P. Joe Haller watches this site and can give you details.
The term actually refers to unregistered matches. Unregistered probably is slightly more politically correct. (That's the first time in my life I've ever suggested anything that might be considered politically correct.) However, the "Outlaw" part might be appropriate if one were referring to some of the competitors.
We have two 2008 matches in Harrison, MI on June 7th and August 9th. Email or PM me for details.
There is normally a match a month at Sault Ste. Marie, MI in the U.P. Joe Haller watches this site and can give you details.
J
Joe Haller
Guest
Hi Mr. Duffin:
We have computer "On-Line Matches" on Rimfire Cental every month. You shoot on your own range, score your own target, and post your score, with a list of rifle, scope and ammo you used: You will find the match reports in the RFC "Matches" section, here:
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=180
Like us, here in Michigan,there are a few clubs around the country that run these RFC matches, shoulder to shoulder each month. They are politically incorrect, because they are not sanctioned by USBR. We use the USBR target at 25 and 50 yards, and that's a different course of fire, eh. I believe that 25 yard match is the secret to attracting and keeping new shooters. We report all our members scores to RFC. The match entries are low this time of year because of the cold weather up north. But, there are at least two clubs in Texas that shoot RFC shoulder to shoulder matches during the winter months.
Here in Michigan Dick Wright will have his two "unregistered" rimfire matches at Harrison in June and August. A lot of shooters do not know, this but the largest centerfire benchrest match in the World is the SUPER SHOOT at George Kelbly's Range in Ohio. Unregister or Outlaw: Matches like this are able to attract large numbers of shooters. I like the word Maverik better than Outlaw. It suggests independent thought or action.
Way UP here on the Canadian Border at Sault Ste. Marie, we are hibernating right now. We will start holding our monthly Rimifre YOOPER SHOOTS in April. You are invited to come UP and shoot with us. It is nice UP Here in the Summer months, after the snow melts.
Here is our match schedule at Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan:
Joe Haller - Mr. Frosty
We have computer "On-Line Matches" on Rimfire Cental every month. You shoot on your own range, score your own target, and post your score, with a list of rifle, scope and ammo you used: You will find the match reports in the RFC "Matches" section, here:
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=180
Like us, here in Michigan,there are a few clubs around the country that run these RFC matches, shoulder to shoulder each month. They are politically incorrect, because they are not sanctioned by USBR. We use the USBR target at 25 and 50 yards, and that's a different course of fire, eh. I believe that 25 yard match is the secret to attracting and keeping new shooters. We report all our members scores to RFC. The match entries are low this time of year because of the cold weather up north. But, there are at least two clubs in Texas that shoot RFC shoulder to shoulder matches during the winter months.
Here in Michigan Dick Wright will have his two "unregistered" rimfire matches at Harrison in June and August. A lot of shooters do not know, this but the largest centerfire benchrest match in the World is the SUPER SHOOT at George Kelbly's Range in Ohio. Unregister or Outlaw: Matches like this are able to attract large numbers of shooters. I like the word Maverik better than Outlaw. It suggests independent thought or action.
Way UP here on the Canadian Border at Sault Ste. Marie, we are hibernating right now. We will start holding our monthly Rimifre YOOPER SHOOTS in April. You are invited to come UP and shoot with us. It is nice UP Here in the Summer months, after the snow melts.
Here is our match schedule at Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan:
Joe Haller - Mr. Frosty
J
Joe Haller
Guest
When you shoot alone:
Part to the problem getting new shooters into our "game", when they are not with a local club, is scoring the target. I have learned that a LOT of shooters have no idea of how to score a target. I felt it was the biggest barrier to setting up our "On-Line Matches" over on RFC, back in 2001.
How do you teach someone to score a target correctly? I found that when you are right there, physically, showing them with a scoring gauge: Some shooters "Just don't get it".
When I was shooting down in Mission, Texas, most of the club members refused to score. I got tired of scoring all the targets. So, I drew up a couple of graphics. It worked. After showing the graphics to one of my most difficult "students", he said:
"Oh, now I see".
Here are copies of the graphics:
Part to the problem getting new shooters into our "game", when they are not with a local club, is scoring the target. I have learned that a LOT of shooters have no idea of how to score a target. I felt it was the biggest barrier to setting up our "On-Line Matches" over on RFC, back in 2001.
How do you teach someone to score a target correctly? I found that when you are right there, physically, showing them with a scoring gauge: Some shooters "Just don't get it".
When I was shooting down in Mission, Texas, most of the club members refused to score. I got tired of scoring all the targets. So, I drew up a couple of graphics. It worked. After showing the graphics to one of my most difficult "students", he said:
"Oh, now I see".
Here are copies of the graphics:
S
settlersbaydon
Guest
Mr Dick
stick to your centerfire forum.
stick to your centerfire forum.
Dick Wright
New member
settlersbaydon...
Huh?
Who are you? Just another guy who says nasty thing without the cajones to use his real name.
Impressive.
Huh?
Who are you? Just another guy who says nasty thing without the cajones to use his real name.
Impressive.
J
Joe Haller
Guest
Hey Suttersbaydon:
Lay Off!
I been trying to talk Dick into coming over to the quiet side for the past four years. He is losing his hearing, and NEEDS to cut the Centerfire addiction.
I don't like the present need for Dick and me to be yelling back and forth at each other, just to be heard. If your rant scares him off and back to that centerfire forum, I'll be WRITING THAT LOWER MICHIGAN TROLL NOTES.
Now: Tell him yer sorry . . .
Joe Haller
From Michigan's Upper Peninsula
Lay Off!
I been trying to talk Dick into coming over to the quiet side for the past four years. He is losing his hearing, and NEEDS to cut the Centerfire addiction.
I don't like the present need for Dick and me to be yelling back and forth at each other, just to be heard. If your rant scares him off and back to that centerfire forum, I'll be WRITING THAT LOWER MICHIGAN TROLL NOTES.
Now: Tell him yer sorry . . .
Joe Haller
From Michigan's Upper Peninsula
J
Joe Haller
Guest
Well:
Looks like Mr. Anonymous ain't gon'a apologize to Mr. Wright, so let's get on with this Outlaw thread . . .
How many of you outlaws use one of the official rimfire targets?
Do you plink on it, or do you have organized matches, with a set of rules to fit your local shooters?
Do you print up non-standard targets on your inkjet printer?
Do you think official standardized ring size targets are important?
If you shoot in sanctioned matches: Of course you can identify the target you shoot on, but do you know the targets used by any of the other Associations?
Test time:
Looks like Mr. Anonymous ain't gon'a apologize to Mr. Wright, so let's get on with this Outlaw thread . . .
How many of you outlaws use one of the official rimfire targets?
Do you plink on it, or do you have organized matches, with a set of rules to fit your local shooters?
Do you print up non-standard targets on your inkjet printer?
Do you think official standardized ring size targets are important?
If you shoot in sanctioned matches: Of course you can identify the target you shoot on, but do you know the targets used by any of the other Associations?
Test time:
Joe
We are shooting 100 Yard Bench Rest pretty much using your rules, with one exception. We have added a 17 RF Class.
We shoot our match on 5 each 8.5 X 11 Single Bull Targets, 10 Rounds per target, 50 Rounds Total.
We have an A and B Range. We let the shooter tune up, adjust his/her sights on the B Range, then when he/she moves to the A Range all rounds are for score, no sighters. All 5 targets are placed side by side. The shooter fires all 50 rounds, and the targets are pulled and scored.
TARGETS: Tom Grace one of our local shooters designed our target, and the local printing shop prints them on White Card Stock for us. They have a .5 Black 10 Ring, and the 9 Ring thru 3 Rings are spaced at .25 apart. The 2 and 1 Rings are spaced at 1 Inch.
Thus far we have not had a problem with scoring this target. No one has shot the Center out of one yet.
EQUIPMENT: We have a variety, CZ 452's, Savage HB Accu Triggers, a lone 77/22, a Cooper, Anschutz 54's, and 64's. And the ever present DCM type rifles. My brother will be getting his old Russian VOSTOK CM-2 Unlimited Rifle together shortly. At our last match Vintage Small Bore was the biggest class. We will probably need a couple more months for the weather to get better to see how everything pans out. We are just getting this up and running. I am expecting it to do pretty well.
AMMUNITION: Almost exclusively Wolf MT. I saw one shooter with Fiochi at the last match.
We charge $10 to shoot the Match per class. We give out a printed Certificate that I print up on my computer.
EGG SHOOT: We are planning a couple Egg Shoots this year also. That should be interesting.
Our Club has had good luck with Outlaw Matches. HI-POWER: We shoot a 100 thru 800 yard Sniper Match using Simulators. A 100 thru 800 yard Multi Range F Class Match ( 5 rounds from each Berm 100 thru 800 yards), and now the 100 Yard Rim Fire Match.
You did well on your Match Rules.
I guess we could hold these matches as HBBR (Hill Billy Bench Rest)
Bob Roach
Big Piney Sportsman's Club
Houston, Missouri
roachw@wildblue.net
We are shooting 100 Yard Bench Rest pretty much using your rules, with one exception. We have added a 17 RF Class.
We shoot our match on 5 each 8.5 X 11 Single Bull Targets, 10 Rounds per target, 50 Rounds Total.
We have an A and B Range. We let the shooter tune up, adjust his/her sights on the B Range, then when he/she moves to the A Range all rounds are for score, no sighters. All 5 targets are placed side by side. The shooter fires all 50 rounds, and the targets are pulled and scored.
TARGETS: Tom Grace one of our local shooters designed our target, and the local printing shop prints them on White Card Stock for us. They have a .5 Black 10 Ring, and the 9 Ring thru 3 Rings are spaced at .25 apart. The 2 and 1 Rings are spaced at 1 Inch.
Thus far we have not had a problem with scoring this target. No one has shot the Center out of one yet.
EQUIPMENT: We have a variety, CZ 452's, Savage HB Accu Triggers, a lone 77/22, a Cooper, Anschutz 54's, and 64's. And the ever present DCM type rifles. My brother will be getting his old Russian VOSTOK CM-2 Unlimited Rifle together shortly. At our last match Vintage Small Bore was the biggest class. We will probably need a couple more months for the weather to get better to see how everything pans out. We are just getting this up and running. I am expecting it to do pretty well.
AMMUNITION: Almost exclusively Wolf MT. I saw one shooter with Fiochi at the last match.
We charge $10 to shoot the Match per class. We give out a printed Certificate that I print up on my computer.
EGG SHOOT: We are planning a couple Egg Shoots this year also. That should be interesting.
Our Club has had good luck with Outlaw Matches. HI-POWER: We shoot a 100 thru 800 yard Sniper Match using Simulators. A 100 thru 800 yard Multi Range F Class Match ( 5 rounds from each Berm 100 thru 800 yards), and now the 100 Yard Rim Fire Match.
You did well on your Match Rules.
I guess we could hold these matches as HBBR (Hill Billy Bench Rest)
Bob Roach
Big Piney Sportsman's Club
Houston, Missouri
roachw@wildblue.net
J
Joe Haller
Guest
Hello Bob:
Thank you for the interesting post. I am please to learn that you are using the rules we developed for the RFC On-Line-Matches. A lot of thought with suggestions from a lot of shooters when into those rules. We allow the .17s to shoot with us, and if enough of them ever turn out for the matches, we will set up a special class for them.
We just set up the rules for that Vintage Smallbore Class last October. Looks like it is going to get popular. The rules for that class were decided by popular vote in a poll on RFC last September. About 50 shooters voted on the rules. They are the will of the majority of the shooters who voted.
We have tried some 100 yard score matches here at our club in Northern Michigan, and I set up a postal match for 5 shot group matches at 100 yards, on RFC. They never became popular. I think UP here the reason is we have a bunch of OLD men that don't want to walk all the way down to the 100 line target frames. Our 25 yard matches are more popular than our 50 yard matches.
You mentioned naming the matches "Hill Billy Bench Rest" (HBBR) Did you know that the dictionary sez a Hill Billy is a Northern Michigan Farmer?
How about putting up a graphic in PDF format of your custom 100 yard target? Maybe some of us could share your match on the internet. And, maybe we can get the young guys to walk down and put up the targets for us.
Joe Haller
Thank you for the interesting post. I am please to learn that you are using the rules we developed for the RFC On-Line-Matches. A lot of thought with suggestions from a lot of shooters when into those rules. We allow the .17s to shoot with us, and if enough of them ever turn out for the matches, we will set up a special class for them.
We just set up the rules for that Vintage Smallbore Class last October. Looks like it is going to get popular. The rules for that class were decided by popular vote in a poll on RFC last September. About 50 shooters voted on the rules. They are the will of the majority of the shooters who voted.
We have tried some 100 yard score matches here at our club in Northern Michigan, and I set up a postal match for 5 shot group matches at 100 yards, on RFC. They never became popular. I think UP here the reason is we have a bunch of OLD men that don't want to walk all the way down to the 100 line target frames. Our 25 yard matches are more popular than our 50 yard matches.
You mentioned naming the matches "Hill Billy Bench Rest" (HBBR) Did you know that the dictionary sez a Hill Billy is a Northern Michigan Farmer?
How about putting up a graphic in PDF format of your custom 100 yard target? Maybe some of us could share your match on the internet. And, maybe we can get the young guys to walk down and put up the targets for us.
Joe Haller