Okay, TUNERS AGAIN. Bukys/Schmidt style versus Beggs???????????????

[mks]

More tank cannon muzzle angle plots: http://www.prinsci.com/amrs.htm
If we had measurements like these for a benchrest rifle, we could make some irrefutable conclusions about how tuners work.

 

[mwezell]

I'm satisfied that I can produce consistent and repeatable results with my tuner. I'm not sure it matters how the tuner affords me this. You guys figure it out and let me know why they work so well... and I'll be shooting.--Mike

 

[Apollo]

Another case of; to each their own.
Some scientists wanted to solve the problem of How does a bumble bee actually fly? Most others could care less - they just knew those big black and yellow things were chasing them when they got around their Russian Sage Bush. Once science actually proved why and how they could fly - it didn't change the fact they still chased you.
Same thing with tuners. Most would agree that tuners can change your "tune". Most don't know why, and actually most don't care = they just "twist the round thing". But the cool thing will be; once people really understand how tuners work - what will they create next because of that information/technology? Understanding how something works does not close the door - it opens the door.
The 2012 season is right around the corner, I hope everyone has a good time putting theory to practice.

Stanley

 

[alinwa]

nahhh, eunuchs don't have rubbers. They're eunuchs.

al

 

[Maddog]

This is a 6 ounce tuner made by Sid Goodling (717-225-3350) that is as simple as it gets. No allen wrenches or nylon screws needed to change settings. KISS. They (all) work.

 

[jackie schmidt]

Maddog, when I first designed my tuner, I was worried about any movement what so ever under recoil, so I went to the trouble od encorporating the pinch bolt locking feature. That insures that there is absolutly no movement.

I can't really say that the feature is nessessary, but logic would seem to say so, simnce you can see a difference in the tune with as little as 1/4 turn, which on my tuner is just .007.

Since I do not make tuners to sell, (although I have made several for friends), I suppose I do not have a dog in tis fight. Let shooters choose for themselves.

That being said, the Bukys probably has the best record of accomplishment behind it...........jackie

 

[Pete Wass]

Lynn,The node has absolutely nothing to do with accuracy,and someday you will find that out .Yet another Calfee myth. Tim in Tx

Tim In Texas
Tim Calfee has tried the weight behind the muzzle as is popular in centerfire were weight is a major issue.He went with lighter barrels and the tuner out in front for a very specific reason.


How does "moving the node to the muzzle" accomplish this any better than letting the node fall where it may? WHERE the node occurs in relation to the muzzle has no effect on the result.....

Alinwa
You can tune with the weight anywhere you want before or after the barrels crown and get one hole groups.There is a reason why Calfee wants the node at the crown and so far nobody has explained it.Bill has a 30 year head start on the rest of the field and challenged Geoffe Kolbey and Varmint Als it doesn't matter were you place the weight to a contest.They didn't take him up on the challenge.
Lynn

Airgun Benchrest is just starting to come along here in America; at least in recent history. There is a picture or two on the Airgun Forum of a couple of competative rifles that have their tuner in the middle of their barrels. Not a very big tuner either.

I have found with using tuners that those which hang over the muzzle are very sensitive to use, way more so than tuners that sit behind the muzzle. For that reason, with CF rifles, I prefer the tuners that reside behind the muzzle. With RF rifles, I am too new at it to have been able to experiment with tuners located behind the muzzle although, 15 or more years ago I had a rifle with a Fudd tuner on it which fit behind the muzzle and I could tune the rifle it it just fine, as I recall.

 

[Maddog]

Maddog, when I first designed my tuner, I was worried about any movement what so ever under recoil, so I went to the trouble od encorporating the pinch bolt locking feature. That insures that there is absolutly no movement.

I can't really say that the feature is nessessary, but logic would seem to say so, simnce you can see a difference in the tune with as little as 1/4 turn, which on my tuner is just .007.

Since I do not make tuners to sell, (although I have made several for friends), I suppose I do not have a dog in tis fight. Let shooters choose for themselves.

That being said, the Bukys probably has the best record of accomplishment behind it...........jackie

No fight intended as I love dogs.
This is just another example of how it can be done to achieve a purpose. One twist and the tuner is loose for adjustment. The users normally only move 1 indication mark to get back on tune.

 

[CubCouper]

I'm satisfied that I can produce consistent and repeatable results with my tuner. I'm not sure it matters how the tuner affords me this. You guys figure it out and let me know why they work so well... and I'll be shooting.--Mike

Been absent from the thread a bit, but I gotta agree with Mike... I publish my notes, not because I believe I know how tuners work, but because I know how my tuner works for me. My "why it works" is just opinion. But maybe my results will give the real engineers some additional data to work with or thoughts to follow up on.

Rod

(Answer to msg from about what didn't fit with Al's model: Honestly I don't remember. I was deep into the math a few years ago and I'm pretty sure it had something to do with Al's .1" tuner model adjustments vs. my .001 adjustments, but I can't say for sure.)

 

[CYanchycki]

If I have digested the info that has been discussed in this thread and the thread started by Smitty on how Gene Bukys uses his tuner, there is one thing that most definately stands out.

Regardless if it is a Beggs or Bukys tuner it appears that tuning nodes are found in short order.

Beggs is half turn either way to get into tune and Bukys says you will find a sweet spot in usually less than a full rotation. Two similar yet different tuners both trying to aid in the tune of a rifle.

Can't wait.............

Calvin

 

[JerrySharrett]

Beggs is half turn either way to get into tune and Bukys says you will find a sweet spot in usually less than a full rotation. Two similar yet different tuners both trying to aid in the tune of a rifle.

Can't wait.............

Calvin

Calvin, it IS easy to find a sweet spot with all the tuners I tried, BUT, note that there will be several sweet spots. The challenge is, if you care to try, is to find the sweetest one, and there are defiantly some better than others. I never did put a tuner on a barrel that would not, with some testing, shoot better, than without a tuner. Hanging the 10 oz Fudd on in most cases just shot some better than the bare barrel.

 

[tim in tx]

Calvin, it IS easy to find a sweet spot with all the tuners I tried, BUT, note that there will be several sweet spots. The challenge is, if you care to try, is to find the sweetest one, and there are defiantly some better than others. I never did put a tuner on a barrel that would not, with some testing, shoot better, than without a tuner. Hanging the 10 oz Fudd on in most cases just shot some better than the bare barrel.

To add to Jerrys post the main message about high frequency is you will have a tune window that is fairly wide [apox 60-90fps wide ]but when it really cools down and if you get into an area of velocities that your tuner seems to NOT want to fix [it throws flyers out the side and all over the place ]and tuner adjustments will change the shape of the group but will not come back to 1 round hole just add .3-.5 grains of powder and get to a different bore exit timing and get out of the bad area of exit and readjust the tuner to get your verticle out. Then you are set.With a multi part tuner the bad spot will be about 33 fps wide and with an integrated tuner the bad spot is about 28 fps wide,which does not matter one bit ,point being as long as you stay away from that particular area of velocities your tuner will work on a consistant basis day in and day out ,in front of the muzzle or not multi part or not.hope this helps sirs.

Tim in Tx

 

[Lynn]

Calvin
If you look at the picture you will see a tuner weighing over 3 pounds made by Fudd.
1 full revolution will put you in and out of tune many times.It will go from bad hunting rifle groups to match winning groups in less than a revolution.
Lynn

 

[Mike Bryant]

Saved from awhile back on benchrest.com. Jackie's Tuner

The Tuner
________________________________________
I wanted to send more pictures, but I feel fortunate that I was able to get one through.
The tuner is made of aluminum. The brass is only 1/16 thick, has hard rubber vulcanized in the ID, and is pressed tightly over the aluminum tuner body. In fact, it is a 1 1/8 ID Marine Propellor Shaft Bearing. The most popular brand in our industry is the Johnson Duramax. These bearings do not go by part number, but by Code Name. The Code Name for the 1 1/8 x 1 5/8 x 5 1/4 inches long bearing is "Belt".
As you can see, you can get enough bearing length for two tuners. The brass shell can be turned to get the weight where you want it, more for an HV if you are so inclined.
You can turn the OD of the tuner to 1.155, and that will give the rubber bearing, (they are all a precision size), about .020 press over the tuner. Once it is on there,it will not move.
That bearing will cost about $40 The rubber is what I call the snubber. It is just an idea I came up with. Consider the assembly as all one piece.
I make this tuner. I have made a few for friends, that particular one is going to Russ Hardy. I have no intentions of making them "for money", I have plenty to do running my business. The overall length is 3 1/4 inches, and the entire thing weighs a touch over 6 ounces. I suppose you could install it on any Rifle that has a barrel at least .900 at the muzzle.
This particular one has a .900 diameter 36 tpi on the inside. The rest of the ID is about 7/8 diameter. The barrel has a corresponding thread, 2 inches in length, on the barrel. You do have to loosen the pinch bolts to move the tuner, or at least I do. All you have to do is lightly cinch the bolts, as the thread has a lot of area.
The integral locking collar, where the two Socket Head Capscrews are, is 1.5 inches in diameter. The split runs up about 1/4 inch further than what you can see.
Anybody with a lathe a small milling machine,and basic skills can build one of these.......jackie

View attachment 12293 This link works sometimes, sometimes not. Don't have any idea why, but the photo is the same as the first one in the photos a couple of replies down.

 

[Vern]

Mike unfortunately you didnt get even 1 through.
Link does not work.

 

[Mike Bryant]

Try the link again. It worked, then didn't work. It seems to be working now . The post was all Jackies from years ago that I had saved to an old computer and just found where I had saved it today

 

[333smitty]

Schmidt Tuner Pix

Heres a couple pix of Jackies snubbers.....

Jackie tuner installed.....

 

[ncnbrsa]

Okay there is TONS of info in regards to Gene Beggs Tuner and how to install it and use it. I totally get it.

Now there is the tuner style that Jackie Schmidt and Gene Bukys use. There is something about them that I do not get.

There is basically next to NO info on how they work or what there purpose is. What I am getting at if one wanted to make one to try or buy there are non available to buy or specs on how to build one and use it. What I mean by what there purpose is, these tuners are screwed on the barrel and tightened with pinch bolts to not be moved again. These gentlemen then tune with powder leaving the tuner alone.

Then I ask myself, "Self, what benefit is there tuner if it is screwed on the barrel and never adjusted?"

What am I missing here???????? How is it used? Where is the sweet spot or how is it found?

Calvin

Why isn't Darrel Loker's tuner not being considered here? It is very well thought out and machined extremely well.
Ron

 

[CYanchycki]

Why isn't Darrel Loker's tuner not being considered here? It is very well thought out and machined extremely well.
Ron

Why? Because there are so many thoughts, ideas, tuners that I decided to make a choice. Nothing more to say than Beggs has a lot of info out there and Bukys is a CHAMPION who is using a tuner of his style. I asked lots questions and got the answers I was looking for. I want a tuner that is not to heavy even if it goes against some of the other camps thoughts. The 2 mentioned fall into what I am looking for and they appear to work. I was also not interested in getting or having to pay someone to contour barrels in odd configurations so I could fit heavy tuners on. In my eyes that is for experimenting by those who can do it. I can't.

There are many nay sayers to the 2 that are mentioned. It is unfortunate that we cannot please everyone in decisions.

There is a lot more that can be said but I hate typing more than I have to.

Calvin

 

[Mike Bryant]

From what Gene Bukys's description of how he uses his tuner, the main purpose of it is not to tune the rifle, but that it allows his rifle to have a wider tune for the particular powder charge bullet combination that he shoots in his rifle. In other words, it goes out of tune quicker without the tuner than it does when the tuner is adjusted the way it was described in the first post of this set of posts.

I don't know the particulars on how Gene's tuner is made, but Jackie's style tuner is pretty easy to make once you can find the marine bearing with the name "belt". These bearings are pretty expensive at about $65 to 75 each depending upon where you find them. I made a couple similar to Jackie's last week and plan on shooting them this week. I made them shorter and lighter than Jackies at about 4 ounces in weight. That combined with a 5 pound barrel gave me a barrel weight of 5lb 4 ounces. The marine bearing is enough for two tuners the length Jackie makes his. I cut the bearing in fourths and made the tuner shorter. They are pretty simple to make if you have a lathe and mill. You could make it without a mill, but the mill makes it simpler to make the saw cut and drill and tap the cinch ring.

It uses 1.5" diameter aluminum rod. The part that takes the bearing is turned down to 1.155" in diameter for the length that you have cut the bearing. Mine is about 1.25" to 1.5" long on that part. I bored out about half the length of the tuner to .900", cut the piece off about .75" longer than the turned down section. Turned it around and then turned it to 1.155" for about .3" leaving a raised section in the middle .450" in width x 1.5" in diameter. Bored from that end to .850 and tapped it with a .875-32 tap. Then took it to the mill made a .015" saw cut or whatever size saw I had on one side of the threaded end as long as I could get it through the threads. Drilled and tapped on the .450 x 1.500 aluminum portion of the tuner through the saw cut for a 6-32 x 3/4 long socket cap screw. Then took the part of the "Belt" and pressed it onto the longer end of the 1.155" turned down section of the tuner. Chucked up the short side of the 1.155 in the lathe with the belt side in a live center and turned the brass on the outside of the belt down to 1.500" in diameter. Made a facing cut across the front of the tuner with the live center out of it and some bevel cuts to clean up sharp edges and that was pretty well it. We'll see how it works this week. Will probably take and put some drill marks on the .3" long section of the tuner spaced in 1/8 turn spacings. 1/8 turn with a 32 thread will move the tuner about .004 thousandths down the length of the barrel.