Just Got My New Scale

mikecr said:
Research, my friend
http://www.6mmbr.com/powderdispensers01.html
You will note the testers observation with testing that the "ChargeMaster seems to throw within 1/2 of one-tenth grain high or low"
.
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the problem with thier claim is that is based on scales that are plus or minus 0.1...........
an invalid ASSUMPTION on thier part.

they need a lab quality scale to make the claim.

none of the three scales they used are ACCURATE enough to back up thier cliam.

i'll go back to my original statement.....


jackie did, as he has done multiple times, made the right decision. one cannot consistantly get 0.1 with a scale that is plus or minus 0.1, one must move up to a scale that is MORE precise. the mx-123 and jackies TP-153 are just that.
i will say that we do not know at this time if plus or minus 0.1 is all that is needed for benchrest, BUT i do know from my testing, is that one of the big pluses of 8208 is its EXTREME consistancy through a powder measure.

some of us have said we want to know we are right on our powder, not just close.

mike in co
 
Too bad we can't buy the cooperation of the wind. Then, when we get what we're seeking ... to within + or - 1 mph! ;)
 
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Having weighed a couple thousand charges for mid and long range in the last few years... first from the Chargemaster to an AccuLab VIC-123, and now to a Sartorius GD-503 (true lab grade analytical balance)... I'd say the Chargemaster 1500 (or more specifically *mine*) is good for +/- 0.1gr about 95% of the time, and probably 0.11 or 0.12gr 99% of the time. It may overthrow from time to time (even w/ the McD straw 'upgrade'), but it seems to indicate within the above bounds in my limited experience.
 
Milanuk, would you check to see if your CM scale will indicate a change of ~.05gr, near your desired load?
It should, with a granule or two(depending on powder), round up as appropriate.
Mine does, and IMO, this puts further precision into diminshed returns.

As far as your validated dispensed charge accuracy, there are ways to improve on this.
Thanks
 
direct from midway's product description of the charge master.

"The Scale accurately weighs to +/- 1/10 grain with a 1500 grain capacity and features a large, easy to read display. It can be calibrated with the 2 included check weights. "


i rest my case......
 
I did a test:

last night I did a test, weighing and re-weighing the same charge repeatedly using three scales, my Acculab, my Chargemaster and my MTM loading box scale. I threw a charge with the Chargemaster, noted the weight then weighed the same charge on the Acculab and then the MTM. The Chargemaster and Acculab showed the same reading with the MTM SOMETIMES showing that reading.

As I suppose most know, the Acculab shows the weight out to hundredths. The load I threw would edge back and fourth between 35.5 and 35.6 on the chargemaster and finally settle on 35.5. On the Aculab the weight showed to be 35.56. So, the Chargemaster was showing the charge to be heavier than 35.5 but not a whole tenth of a grain, ergo the 35.5 reading. I did this process perhaps 10 times with the same situation repeating time after time.

I found that I had to allow the Aculab to warm up quite a long time to get stability and I had to zero it every time I removed the pan after it had been torn. The Chargemaster has a feature that re-zeroes each time the pan is removed.

SOOOOO, this seems to simply point out that one may be able to get better resolution with a chargemaster if it read out another division and two. Either it's use the better scales that give better resolution or accept a possable .02 variation.
 
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mikecr said:
If your Chargemaster is off .3grn, send it back. There is seriously something wrong with it.
That aside, and this side of a Prometheus, the Chargemaster is the best system going right now.

I know, I know, there are tons of lab scales indicating with higher resolution. NOT RELOADING SCALES. They are not reliable to resolutions higher than a Chargemaster -outside of a housing. And throwers themselves are nowhere near any. So you can throw, and trickle by hand, no better than a Chargemaster would do for you(~.05gr).

I only bring it up because all roads lead to it anyway.
You'll see...
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Mike
To clarify. Most of the time my CM gets it within .1- .15gns range. Ball powders seem to work best. Occasionally though it will throw a real wild one. I've also learned that just because it indicates an over or under charge that is not always true either.
I only know this by using my Denver to correct the charges thrown from it. A questimate of 4000rds or so done this way.
As I said it is one of the earlier units and by internet accounts they have fine tuned the programming a bit since then. Yes I could return it for reprogramming.
I like the extra accuracy I get from my Denver though. Is it accurate to .02gns? Not in my house its not but its pretty darn close and more accurate than anything else I have.
 
Thanks Pete
My findings exactly, using my Acculab VIC-123 for comparison checks. But I think most here read that my point is not about scale superiority. My point is that capability better than .05gr is mute, so the CM fits our needs easiest.
RBCS could have easily used higher resolution. However, doing so would have necessitated an enclosure for reasonable speed, and it would not be so good of a system then. Cost would be higher, it would be cumbersome and slow, and reloaders would have hated it(most don't exactly embrace digital do-dads anyway).
The CM's resolution is .1gr, and you can tell by picking up the pan and setting it back on the scale for a second reading if you are really a granule off either way.
Well, so it goes for my powders. I use a dozen or so different powders ranging from .03gr to >.1gr per granule. If your powder is much less than .03, and you're highly motivated to get to the granule, then I concede the CM would not be best.

On the subject of it's charging accuracy, there is plenty of potential for tweaking and tuning. I fiddled with this & that to greatly improve mine. Programing, tube changes, the 'straw' insert, preloading the loadcell to linearity, and a potentiometer to calibrate for each powder. I'm working now on a second, single granule trickler.

Now when Denver Instruments incorporates a scale into a better working dispensing system, I'll be all over it.
 
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Dusty Stevens said:
Can you actually see .01 gr difference on the target? Must be winter again.
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maybe not, but anyone with an accurate rifle can see .2 grains at 1000yds (the claimed accuracy of the CM.) Real world this translates to 1/4 gr variance shot to shot.


IMO this is a variation of 15-30fps

If you can't see that then you aren't shooting far, well.

al
 
Like jackie, i only shoot 1 and 2 hunnert and actually have won the last 4 shoots i attended using both my dps3 and my harrels according to my mood- just sayin. I think having the absolute best bullets and barrels along with the machine work and absolute straight dies then reading the wind properly with a good and fast rest is how you win. Of course this is only my opinion and doesnt make for very interesting campfire conversation... But it does make sense when the targets go up. Weighing all those charges dam sure dont hurt. If i have a good outlet my dps3 is what i use so im not saying its not the way to go. So flog away;)
 
Regarding flogging

Dusty Stevens said:
Like jackie, i only shoot 1 and 2 hunnert and actually have won the last 4 shoots i attended using both my dps3 and my harrels according to my mood- just sayin. I think having the absolute best bullets and barrels along with the machine work and absolute straight dies then reading the wind properly with a good and fast rest is how you win. Of course this is only my opinion and doesnt make for very interesting campfire conversation... But it does make sense when the targets go up. Weighing all those charges dam sure dont hurt. If i have a good outlet my dps3 is what i use so im not saying its not the way to go. So flog away;)
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It has been my contention all along that it is impossable to make ammo that is TOO GOOD. Now, about the lenght of the ogive surface of all them bullets - - - - -
 
Dusty Stevens said:
Can you actually see .01 gr difference on the target? Must be winter again.
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i dont know if any one is actually weighing to .01. what i'm trying to do is make sure i'm in the plus or minus .03 range .....not plus or minus .1 .

.....saying my ammo is consistant...

after all br is suppose to be about accuracy, not almost accurate.

do you seat your bullets to plus or minus 0.010 ??m why settle for powder at plus or minus 0.1 ?

mike in co
 
So if i load 5 shells for you and make one .03gr heavy you and your current setup can tell me which one it is when you shoot a group?
 
Dusty Stevens said:
So if i load 5 shells for you and make one .03gr heavy you and your current setup can tell me which one it is when you shoot a group?
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Dittos to Mike in co. .03-.04 is exactly what I'm after and what I get using a quality scale.


Not sure about anyone else but I tweak my powder loads in .1gn increments after finding the sweet spot to find the super sweet spot:)
If your measuring device only gives accuracy to .1gn + or - for a total of .2gns diversion then yes IMO your leaving some potential on the table.
Don't ask me to prove it by my scores. Thats a whole nother can of worms:)
 
What are we looking for???

I doubt we are looking for accuracy to the near .01. Unless you are in a darned near laboratory conditions, that is impracticle.

What I am trying to avoid is that one or two charges that MIGHT be 4 or 5 tenths off.

While at the Natioanls, we set up my powder thrower in Billy's Motor Home and I through 20 charges, several times. Typically, 17 were in the "plus or minus one tenth" that I think we can all live with. But, typically, the other three would be quite a bit over, as much as + 4 tenths, to minus 2 tenths. I think everybody would agree, that is too much.

But, if I had been loading for a relay, there is no way I could have known those three charges were that far out of tolerance.

The new scale I have will weigh "to the hundreth", but that is not what I am after. I am just shooting for a "real world" tenth one way or another.........jackie
 
Dusty Stevens said:
So if i load 5 shells for you and make one .03gr heavy you and your current setup can tell me which one it is when you shoot a group?
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you still missed the point.

read jackies post above.

its not about my plus or minus .03, its about your plus or minus .1 which is a .2 spread, which is more than i want.

four at plus .1 and one ant minus .1 and i'll bet that a shooter better than me( that aint much) say anyone in the top 20 at the ss..., and thay could tell you which one was off by .2......

anyway...just read jackies post...its his thread about his scale.

thanks
mike in co
 
Just to put things in perspective, Gary Ocock's, recent potential record five shot unlimited 100yd. agg. and .034 group were shot with ammunition reloaded with thrown charges.
 
Yes .2 is too far, i agree. But .03 is anal. Have you ever weighed primers? How close is your brass in weight? Better yet do they all hold the same water weight after firing once and sizing? Do you sort bullets according to weight down to .01 gr and ogive length? Did you buy one of them meplat trimmers?
 
Boyd Allen said:
Just to put things in perspective, Gary Ocock's, recent potential record five shot unlimited 100yd. agg. and .034 group were shot with ammunition reloaded with thrown charges.
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I've talked with Gary at length about this issue. He does not weigh his charges, primers, brass, etc. As Boyd says, he always throws his charges. Occasionally I'll ask Gary what charge was working for him and he always expresses his answer in clicks. When I press him on the weight of the charge, he always tells me he has no idea and does not care. For part of the recent Nationals in St. Louis Gary was shooting 133. He was throwing those charges also. Even though 133 does not throw anywhere as nice as 8208, Gary shot very well.

I've certainly noticed an increasing number of Chargemasters at the various matches here in the wild west. That being said, most of the better shooters are still throwing their charges and shooting very, very well. Gary, Libby, Murdica, Nielson, etc. Heck, Libby's potential record at the Nationals was shot with thrown charges.
 
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