Just Got My New Scale

[caroby]

Confirmation tests...

Yes .2 is too far, i agree. But .03 is anal. Have you ever weighed primers? How close is your brass in weight? Better yet do they all hold the same water weight after firing once and sizing? Do you sort bullets according to weight down to .01 gr and ogive length? Did you buy one of them meplat trimmers?

I agree with ya Dusty........

Flame suit on........

I did a little test back in spring this year, not a rail gun but a 10.5 Sporter/LV bag gun and at 100yds... Found an evening that was as steady as possiable.... From 0-3mph 65-70 deg <50% humidity (Oh this don't matter.........) A known 6ppc chambered Krieger that was <400 rds.
Known bullets that are ON, and a good lot of 287-08 VV133. Fresh brass and Fed 205's

Brought out a borrowed ibalance 101 scale... Proven to be VERY consistent. once zeroed, didn't move off zero (3 check weights) at all through the evening. All weighed in the stat house.
http://balance.balances.com/scales/899

First I set-up 6 ranges of weight with .1gr increments centered around 28.8gr of 133. 4 dead on 28.8 then a known + and - .1-.3gr loaded case. I.E. ... First group 4-28.8 then one loaded 28.5 all the way to the sixth group at 4 - 28.8 and the fifth case loaded at 29.1.
The three groups that had the known lighter case load of 1 of 5 @ 28.5 - 28.7 showed ZERO vertical on the paper.
Now I did see a tad vertical on the heavyer side (1 of 5 @ 28.9 -29.1).. About 1 bullet, kind of an egg shaped .200 diag 8 oclock to 2 oclock.

Now I did test 28.5 load and 4 - 29.1..... Yes, big virtical 2-3 bullets almost stait up and down 4 tight and the light load down at 7 oclock 2 1/2 bullets...

One .6 gr case showed an obvious problem stay'n in the group.... As expected.

.2 tenths showed me damn near no change... .1 nothing that I could detect.



To cut through all the fluff..... I proved vertical mostly a diagnal one bullet diag with a hotter throw > .3 tenths.

So, I got my Harrell's 90 measurer out.......... The evenings good conditions were coming to an end (Cold air falling "temp inversion" causes bad things.) ...
I did my usual "technique" .. Powder thrown to the hopper and weighed, recorded and dumped into the case.

3 - 5 shot groups from my Harrells @ 53.3 clicks 28.7gr VV 133... Recorded every thrown charge/weighed.... This 53.3 is where I'm "at" a fair amount.

My notes show group one 28.5gr, 28.7, 28.7, 28.6, 28.7......... Group .157 nice and round.

Group two 28.6, 28.6, 28.7, 28.7, 28.5............... Group .179... Dot with half bullet up top... My bad, gun handling...

Group three 28.8, 28.7, 28.7, 28.7, 28.5............... Group .122... Nice and round. .3 gr spread and still a little one.......

This tells me, with a bag gun.................... Just load with the Harrells with my technique and spend the rest of the time between relays/matches >>>Watch'n the flags..!<<<

I'm getting .1-.2 with my thrown loads, but a .3 can sneek in... And I would not be supprised if through a 2-gun that I will shoot a few > .3 on occasion.

At the house I ran like 10 groups of 5 with the Harrells.... 5-thrown and weighed did this 10 times..... 70% were .1, 20% went .2 and 10% went .4 ....
One case outta 50 went -.4gr.......... Not bad at all. Even though........

But I will say that todays competition may very well require loads with no variation AT ALL............... But here in the plains were the wind is a puff'n, .3 gr vary wont be noticed......... Yes, I know this years NBRSA's Nationals was in the Eastern plains but the conditions REQUIRED loads that are ON..!

Can't find the picture of the above tests.....Errrrrr ... But at least kept my notes.

I'd perfer to re-run the same test at Gene Beggs tunnel with a good rail.

Some day.....

cale

 

[milanuk]

Yes .2 is too far, i agree. But .03 is anal. Have you ever weighed primers? How close is your brass in weight? Better yet do they all hold the same water weight after firing once and sizing? Do you sort bullets according to weight down to .01 gr and ogive length? Did you buy one of them meplat trimmers?

Dusty,

Generally speaking, I do agree that weighing powder out to the single kernel level is on the anal side, and I can't provide proof that it is truly necessary. I don't shoot point-blank BR at this point, but long-range F-Class. I do sort components and do some of the other steps you mention. Some people argue that with all the other 'noise' between the end of the muzzle and the target, its very difficult to validate whether any of this is worth the effort. Others contend that *because* of all the disruption possible between here and there, doing anything and everything possible to minimize the variables you can control is paramount. Me, I'm somewhere in between.

For me the lab grade scale is there anymore mainly as a check. My 'go-to' load seems to be on a sweet spot - it makes no noticeable difference if I load straight from the chargemaster or from the GD-503. I'm about half tempted to try throwing some loads at that charge weight from my Harrell's Custom 90 just to compare. But again, it's on a sweet spot where little fluctuations just don't seem to matter much. For big matches I tend to load with the GD-503, partly as a mental safety blanket and partly because it is so much less of a PITA to use than the VIC-123 it replaced that its almost enjoyable.

The one thing that kind of makes me scratch my head is when people swear up and down that their powder throwers are +/- 0.1 (or whatever number) according to a scale that is at probably +/- 0.1gr at best 95% of the time - they'd cost a whole heckuva lot more if they were guaranteed to be accurate to that level 100% of the time. Point is if you want to determine if something is +/- a certain amount, you need something more accurate - considerably more accurate - to measure it with. Most folks don't want to go that extra mile or spend the extra time/money to do that and simply either take the manufacturer's word and reputation for it, or have someone else to the leg work on a similar model, either of which is fine. I'm just not wired that way

 

[Big Al]

I just got one of the Denver Instruments TP-153 scales.

Now I have to figure out just what the heck I am going to do with it.

Seriously, aside from needing a small inverter and battery to run it at the Range, it looks like a great unit. Measures accuratly to .01 grn., and repeats dead on.

Has a great wind cover, the biggest negative is probably the size. So, I also bought one of the little Competitive Edge Scales. Used it last week end, it's drawback is it simply is not as accurate, and does not repeat as well, as the larger, (and more expensive), unit.

I weighed, (pun intended), getting a good scale as opposed to using a Chargemaster. Personally, I think the scale has it beat. ...........jackie

The one thing you do have going for you, you won't have to set there while someone else gets the wood that used the vials to recharge with. I always feel silly setting through that when I threw all mine with a powder measure.

How much of this game is all about eliminating as many variables as we can?

 

[mike in co]

Brought out a borrowed ibalance 101 scale... Proven to be VERY consistent. once zeroed, didn't move off zero (3 check weights) at all through the evening. All weighed in the stat house.
http://balance.balances.com/scales/899

cale

not a flame....but:
"The i101 is also perfect for reloading with 0.1 Grain accuracy and a big 1500 Grain capacity."( from the site listed )

its only a 0.1 scale.......so inspite of your measurements...those loads are all plus or minus .1...........a .4 could be a .3 or a .5........

i said it before...you need a lab quality scale for this type of test.

mike in co

 

[caroby]

its only a 0.1 scale.......so inspite of your measurements...those loads are all plus or minus .1...........a .4 could be a .3 or a .5........

i said it before...you need a lab quality scale for this type of test.

mike in co

Yep.. I do agree, it's in the back of my mind.

Thinking about the same Denver TP - 153 for not just checking my load measured consistency but primarily for producing ACCURATE cores for bullet making with the .01gr reading ability.

cale

 

[Joe Maisto]

Francis;
Along with that, this whole thing seems to have gotton out of hand. Next thing you know someone will say we must weigh primers...
Wilbur had it right awhile back. All down through the years, great shooters and HOFers didn't do what some think we need to do today to win, like measuring powder to the kernal (so to speak).
The same stands true for bullets. There were but a few to choose from, and matches were won. Ed Watson , Jef Fowler, Forrester, the Bergers, and others ....are testimonials. There were no chargemasters then either.
I know of at least two recent HOFers who do not weigh their powder, as I have loaded near them.
Tune the rifle, Get the bags right, the gun handling right, read the flags, know when to shoot.
If that still does'nt work, forget about it and have fun with all the fine people
that are present.

 

[mikecr]

All down through the years, great shooters and HOFers didn't do what some think we need to do today to win

If winning ever was -all that matters, then what a waste of human time and resources..
No, it is about the learning.
It is about great efforts toward understanding that would better us, not of others, but of ourselves.

Haven't you recognized this in human beings?

 

[HovisKM]

I compete to win....

Hovis

 

[mike in co]

What do you use at all the matches you attend? I'm talking about 100-200 benchrest matches NBRSA or IBS.

does this imply i'm not allowed to think, that i do not know simple math ?
that i do not have an engineering background that allows me to look at things and decide the accuracy of machines ??(read the data and do the math)


francis, where in the two forums on benchrest, does it say ONLY nbrsa or ibs participants allowed ??

i own and shoot three benchrest rifles.......heck one is a 6ppc.

end of story

mike in co

 

[jackie schmidt]

Used My Denver 153 yesterday

Aside from the extra space it takes up on the loading table, it works great. One thing I do like is that it does not drift in zero like the little Competitive Edge Scale. In other words, if you add a touch, or take away a touch of powder, it actually shows on the scale.

One thing does bother me. O have a small 300 watt converter hooked into my cars cigarette lighter, with an extension cord to the scale. If that little converter, (it's a Vector), goes out, the scale is dead.

I will have to get a little back-up battery. One more thing to lugg to the range..........jackie

 

[alinwa]

Aside from the extra space it takes up on the loading table, it works great. One thing I do like is that it does not drift in zero like the little Competitive Edge Scale. In other words, if you add a touch, or take away a touch of powder, it actually shows on the scale.

One thing does bother me. O have a small 300 watt converter hooked into my cars cigarette lighter, with an extension cord to the scale. If that little converter, (it's a Vector), goes out, the scale is dead.

I will have to get a little back-up battery. One more thing to lugg to the range..........jackie

Why not just get another Vector? It'll never go dead from lack of maintenance, never leak and takes little room. Just keep it in the car. Could run a laptop on it.......

al

 

[mike in co]

is that the true forum for testing equipment is at a match where all competitors are on the same plane, conditions are the same for all, and scores and results can be compared equally. To sit in some basement and say that a measure, a scale, a product is better than another is not to be taken in the same vein as that which is tested in the real world.

End of the sequal to the story

only in your mind...francis....this is a disscussion about scales and accuracy...NOT ABOUT SHOOTING. the end use is about getting consistancy in powder in a case...but the thread is about scale accuracy.

is seems to me..anytime some one has nothing positive to add, dose not like the thread or whatever, they jump back to "get on the line and shoot"...in this case that is bs.period

you want to eliminate my input because i dont shoot with you, that is tactic that has no validity.
wherther i shoot or not has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MATH INVOLVED IN DERTERMINING THE ACCURACY OF A SCALE.

yes i know you can shoot, and i am a beginner....none of which has dittle squawt to do with the accuracy of scales.

hopefully the end.

mike in co