Help! What is "Factory Class" anyway?

Lube

george in KY said:
again i think he was trying to make a point......you can NOT swop out wolf/SK with lapua . wolf/sk has a sticky lube. Lapua has a thick wax EASY to tell witch one your shooting.\
and it dont matter there is no rule on what 22LR ammo you shoot.
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I shoot the new Lapua ammo almost exclusively, and it looks identical to Wolf/SK. The old Midas and Master is very easy to tell the difference. Martin, you have some of the Center X, compare it to Wolf, then tell me if you can see the difference.

Back to the intention of this thread,at Anderson Creek we shoot unsanctioned IR/50-50 matches and have a factory class called "Squirrel Gun" and always have a decent amount of shooters. Rules are pretty simple; factory stock, factory barrel,(no heavy barrels, which rules out 52's etc.) as in typical factory sporters. Trigger mods.allowed, but not aftermarket, bedding ok and a scope limit of 10x. Also, any ammo is allowed. We do get younger people involved and it's a lot of fun. We do use the IR/50-50 target, just like Custom Sporter and Unlimited.
 
You've missed the point, none of us are in our right mind. It costs too much and we know it but we love it. We have the problem of how to ask the new guy if he is crazy too without offending him. We usually start by telling them not to buy anything but go to a match and check it out. If they don't run away or start laughing, we take the next step and suggest some equipment choices.
 
We usually start by telling them not to buy anything but go to a match and check it out.
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My experience has been that a lot of folks tell me not to bother showing up to shoot if I want to shoot the gun I currently own. They don't seem to get that I'm only using it in squirrel gun type shoots. But some people really enjoy bragging about how much money they have as if they know no one else could possibly afford to compete with them. To be honest those people make me want to have nothing to do with the sport but then again there are a lot of good people who have encouraged me in amazing ways. Those people make me want to get involved. Plus I do like to shoot a lot. I just shot a couple of boxes a few minutes ago.

I'm not going to let the arrogant types ruin the sport for me. I like doing this too much.

I'm afraid a lot of the rancor aimed at me is due to my having said that I've done certain things that certain people say are impossible with the guns I am using. That's probably why I was flamed for something I never even said. It's too bad that people aren't any more trusting than they are. I'm well aware that some people will lie and exaggerate not to mention cheat but most won't in my experience. I think the ones who are quick to cry foul when someone else says something are probably judging people by their own morals. They think if they do it then everyone else must do it too. I feel sorry for those people because something is missing in their life.

I wouldn't suspect the people I shoot with of cheating unless I had a very good reason to believe that. I never saw any evidence of cheating. People were very friendly and helpful. If they wanted to win so bad why would they try to help me?
 
This is a great sport and there are a lot of us who are crazy enough the do it. We can live with a few cheaters here and there. Big harry deal!

Chocho Bill
 
i really don't think Mr. nobody meant to be arrogant sounding..i sometimes want to say the same things he did, it gets tiresome beating around the bush.
plus if you have been down that road of trying to make your favorite squirrel
rifle shoot lights out..or if you learned the hard way and wasted tons of time and money you tend to get over passionate with remarks like " ya can't fix stupid "
best advice has been given, invite them out, let them try dedicated bench rifles, hand them an ARA or other target , let them go back and try their equipment and see for themselves just how it works out in the privacy of their own back yards.
i don't know Mr. nobody, but a person that calls himself that can't be really arrogant:D
 
Back to the subject at hand just outside the box:

1. We need rules for the equipment, guns, scopes, rests, and ammo spelled out.

2. We need a target approved.

3. We need to decide if we can shoot this "factory class" side by side with the more advanced games like 50/50 and ARA.

Any other suggestions?

It seems simple enough for me.

Concho Bill
 
Springfield "factory " night Last Monday of month.
Factory stock, bbl, action, no tuners. 2 piece rests.
We use the IBS target I think, bigger 10 ring.
Generally we get about 10 shooters but put on feed one night and had 22.
Some interest and we get some people out to try, some get "hooked".

All other Monday night shoots are unlimited, any rest, with tougher target (no ARA) and we get about same turn out. All targets scored best edge easier for us. Have about 20+ shooters that show up over the year. We keep costs down and pay out top 3 usually after some for club and targets,etc.

We have had several new shooters over last two years. just plain fun and friendly competition.

Simple rules almost impossible to "cheat".

Always hard to attract new shooters, but if you keep it simple and have matches we can keep rimfire benchrest going.
 
Bill,
I wish I had a definative answer for you, but I don't. It appears that the rules governing IR50/50 would be impeding shooting side-by-side by earlier posts (I don't shoot IR and I'm unfamiliar). Now ARA is a platform you can work with (so long as you use the same target and scoring). No worries about stocks, scopes and weights. Don't have any ideas of what you would restrict into a "factory", "plinker", or "hunter" class but you could certainly (on the side) reward your local newcomers, plinkers, club members that bring their squirrel rifles and compete. As a side reward (not unlike high target pots) you could pool those with that type equipment as they were competing against themselves (but also against everyone to the ARA for match purposes). Am I making any sense? I've thought of this very thing to entice folks to try the sport with what they already own. My problem has been that it's hard to get more than one at the match to test it. I think alot of that problem is they hear of these high-quality rifles that will be there and it simply intimidates them. I shot more than half a year with a Rem 541T HBL completely factory and no tuner to get my feet wet before upgrading equipment. I was fortunate to be able to purchase a used gun that first year. Most people cannot and give up. Just a thought.

Carp
 
i really don't think Mr. nobody meant to be arrogant sounding..i sometimes want to say the same things he did, it gets tiresome beating around the bush.
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You must be kidding. Bragging about how much money you make is as arrogant as it gets.

Don't you understand you took his bait? I never said I was going to shoot compeitions with a Savage rifle. So why preach to me that I can't do it? I'm guessing he's laughing right now because he got you to take his side based on a flat out lie.

I don't believe you intend to be part of a troll but that's what you are doing. Ask yourself why he said this to me when I never said I was going to shoot a Savage in BR compeitions. I did say I might use one in a squirrel rifle type shoot but certainly not in a sanctioned event. He made that up and you took his side. That's what trolls do. You're doing his dirty work for him. See if you can find any place where I said I was going to use a Savage rifle to shoot in sanctioned events. You won't find any such comment. You seem like a nice enough person but he is making a chump out of you. He is trying to start trouble and he's using you to get it done.

Don't be taken in. I know you can't shoot BR with a squirrel gun no matter how good it shoots. It won't be consistent enough. I never thought you could so there's no reason to go through the "tiresome" effort of telling me that.
 
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Carp said:
Bill,
I wish I had a definitive answer for you, but I don't. It appears that the rules governing IR50/50 would be impeding shooting side-by-side by earlier posts (I don't shoot IR and I'm unfamiliar).
Carp
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Carp, I understand where you are coming from and my concerns are the same. I don't see too much of a problem at a registered unlimited match which is what we shoot.

Look at the rule like a keen eyed lawyer. The rule says, "no one will occupy any unused bench at a match for any reason." The bench would be in in use with a contestant if said contestant were shooting at a sanctioned target. the rule would not be applicable because there would be no empty bench. So now this class would need a sanctioned target even though it is a different one.

I rest my case! More shooters and less empty benches.

I know that I have oversimplified the problem. That is what I do. Wilbur might allow a limited trial period to see if this is something that might be desirable. Maybe it could be tried unofficially in remote areas. I see major advantages to allowing this class to shoot along side UL shooters at sanctioned matches.

Concho Bill
 
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any thoughts wilbur, or ara or rba guys. it could be you either set up a
common class that you could shoot as a side match to any of the others
ir ara rba etc. or for the guys who are always saying how they would run
it if they had their way, start a new sport. squirrel gun association or whatever
to shoot in connection with the others. might end up with a bigger total
following than anything now going, at least the new guys could afford it.
i need some coffee.
 
Carp said:
Bill,
I wish I had a definative answer for you, but I don't. It appears that the rules governing IR50/50 would be impeding shooting side-by-side by earlier posts (I don't shoot IR and I'm unfamiliar). Now ARA is a platform you can work with (so long as you use the same target and scoring). No worries about stocks, scopes and weights. Don't have any ideas of what you would restrict into a "factory", "plinker", or "hunter" class but you could certainly (on the side) reward your local newcomers, plinkers, club members that bring their squirrel rifles and compete. As a side reward (not unlike high target pots) you could pool those with that type equipment as they were competing against themselves (but also against everyone to the ARA for match purposes). Am I making any sense? I've thought of this very thing to entice folks to try the sport with what they already own. My problem has been that it's hard to get more than one at the match to test it. I think alot of that problem is they hear of these high-quality rifles that will be there and it simply intimidates them. I shot more than half a year with a Rem 541T HBL completely factory and no tuner to get my feet wet before upgrading equipment. I was fortunate to be able to purchase a used gun that first year. Most people cannot and give up. Just a thought.

Carp
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Shooting airguns beside unlimited guns in BR-50 was what put it on the terminal list. Doesn't matter if you score them separately or not, my guess if you put another class side by side in ARA, you will see it die. Probably be resurrected under a different name, but die anyway.
 
I'm thinking totally different game

It doesn't necessarily need to "fit" into any existing rule package and could be fired alongside anything.

I also think we should stop right here and brainstorm a bit concerning the "reasons" that folks with these so called "squirrel rifles" are not already on the firing line. For every competitor that shoots registered matches, there are thousands that don't. If we could accurately target "why", our effort may have a chance. I'll throw out a couple:

Unaware of benchrest shooting altogether

Don't know what to expect (protocol)
 
The big one; afraid of competition and perhaps poor performance. Recreational shooters are often not competitive people. No way can we change human nature. Same thing happens in all aspects of life. I wish it were not so. We have to find the shooters with competitive desire, or they us. bob finger
 
Simple and Cheap

Keep it Simple!

Keep it Cheap!

Those are the key factors here. Each range/club has it's own particular challeges. Financial is a big one in many cases and I think that this is a way to help with such. Who benefits from this, getting people involved brings new faces to these ranges, helps bring in some money, whether these factory,squirrel, call it you may, rifle shoots bring in new shooters to the upper shooting potocols, maybe, maybe not. I think that this really depends on the people at the clubs. I fully understand that not a whole lot of folks are going to be able to put together the equipment to shoot competively at the top level, does that mean some won't compete and enjoy it, and please don't flame me here, but there's some out there who have been doing this a long time and know that when they show up at a tournament, nationals, PSL etc... they aren't going to finish in the top 10, or maybe even top 20, but they enjoy doing this and come anyway. I live a very large metro area of well over a million folks, in Texas, which is already a mecca of outdoor, shooting, sports driven state. I feel confident that there has to be at least 20-30 folks who would shoot at the top levels in this area if they only knew of the sport, and now a long shot here, but has to be at least 300-500 folks who would enjoy getting out to shoot their squirrel guns in a benchrest format. With that said, let's say on a given Saturday that only 5% of those showed up you'd have 15-25 shooters. I think it has a chance if the groundwork is laid and word could get out to the masses that it's out there.

Now each to there own way to do this, my thoughts are to keep these seperate, not shooting at the same time, maybe not even the same day, but here's one e.g. Either have the factory shoot before the ARA, IR50/50, etc.. shoot. Give the folks a chance to see the equipment, talk to the shooters, even have equipment setup to try. Think how many folks have never had the pleasure of pulling the trigger on a top of the line benchrest 22.

Just some ideas.

Les
 
Les: I'm the only one at my "club" that shoots sanctioned rimfire. There are at least 30 very good shooters at the club and we compete informally all year long. I have offered any of them the opportunity to travel with me, use my kit, gun and bullets, share a room, I'll drive etc. I would love to have a travel companion as all sanctioned shoots are a loooong drive for me. I have yet to have anyone jump at the opportunity.

I want to start shooting ARA there, but no one else has any desire to jump in. They are an informal shooting bunch and its tough to have a match with only one competitor. I'll likely let my idea slide for another year. Sad, no?

I always have spare gear and back up gun in the car when I go to the club. I love to set it up and let someone take it for a drive. Kids especially. The grins on their face after shooting a decent target with a 40X scope is worth it. Maybe I'll hook one someday and get a partner out of it but probably not. I'll keep trying tho. bob finger
 
I think some kind of factory / squirrel competition could draw new shooters because many people don't want to invest a lot of money only to find out they aren't very good at something. If there's a cheaper way to find out if they have a chance at being good they might take it. I'm certainly not an expert on this but I know how I look at things. I can probably afford to shoot at some sanctioned events but I really want to find out if there's no chance of doing well before I invest several thousand dollars. I have invested that much in other hobbies but I pretty much knew it would be something I could do before I did it.

At the factory rifle event I did attend there were quite a few shooters with equipment ranging from pretty cheap to pretty expensive. Still I think I can learn from this even using a cheaper rifle because my compeition will be with myself and anyone else shooting a gun similar to mine.

There are lots of shooters in the area I live in. Maybe some of them don't know about factory rifle events. Maybe something like an ad in a newspaper or even on tv would draw people out. I know lots of shooters who compete informally with the people they know. Many of them wouldn't be interested in an organized event. But maybe some of them would. I've lived in this area most of my life and I didn't even know there was a club located where it is. I did know there were several other ranges around but none of them compare from what I've seen. There is probably one other that does but I have never been there either. I've been content to plink around my yard and I even set up my own 50 yard range at home and a 100 yard range and a 200 yard range on my farm. So I've always been interested in shooting. But it took people on this web site to inform me of the nice facility not that far from where I live. I think just informing people about what's going on will go a long way in bringing new shooters into the sport.
 
?????

Dang Bob, "There are at least 30 very good shooters at the club and we compete informally all year long. I have offered any of them the opportunity to travel with me, use my kit, gun and bullets, share a room, I'll drive etc. I would love to have a travel companion as all sanctioned shoots are a loooong drive for me. I have yet to have anyone jump at the opportunity."

You got me on this one for sure. 30 shooters and not a one has even shown a peek of interest to go out on the road for a all paid for vacation to go to a sanctioned 22LR benchrest match. OK I'm humbled and won't complain about us only having 6-9 shooters at our local ARA matches anymore.

Good Luck Bob hopefully it will turn around where some will pop up over time and you can get a ARA club going.

Les
 
When ever the subject of Factory class is brought up, I hear , there is not
enough interest. Centerfire or rimfire, there is always a lot of input, so
how can it be of no interest. I do hear many variations of what
constitutes Factory and that is generally where things fall apart in
discussion. It is entry level at its best. Experience and expence is
minimal. Unlimited only , go home and don't come back till you have a great
gun defeats everything, and few can play. Where ever I go, I find people
that weren't competitive earlier but are now. I often let others shoot
my guns, and the responce is always positive. Winning and losing is not
the same for everyone, its how you play.
With all the disention about factory class rules, it would be a big plus
if a sancioning body would assemble a uniform set of rules. Thereby
improving the spirit and giving it a beginning.
 
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