Help! What is "Factory Class" anyway?

Les, Tom, and all the rest,

We all realize that something needs to be done to recruit new shooters for the rimfire benchrest game be it 50/50 or ARA or any other.

My thoughts on the type of rifles that are used to shoot in this type of match are only that we should not worry about accommodating the lever actions or ancient falling block rifles and other junkers. There are plenty of bolt action rifles out there that will shoot reasonably good and will not cost an arm and a leg. I think it would be complicated to the point of being silly to have more that one additional class. This class should be like a minor league for the more advanced game and not just a benchrest can shooting game. What I am trying to say is the class should be a serious stepping stone.

So let the newly recruited shooters shoot with any factory rifle they bring and any scope or rest. Let us not handicap them with too many restrictive rules. They can use the scope and rest when they move up. In the mean time, they can learn to read wind flags and watch ARA or 50/50 matches. We can help them along.

I would like to see a target with 25 bulls on it that would allow a new green shooter to shoot around 220 to 230 rather than a disheartening 170 or less.

Concho Bill
 
I've said it before
i work part time in a gun shop.
i set out an ARA picture album, ARA, RBA, ARG targets , scoring plugs ect.then talked till I'm blue in the face to a dozen of guys that shoot every week at a local function...these guys look at the pictures and targets and listen to me explain good ammo, then wave it all away and usually say "BULL$hit"..... I'm tired of being or feeling embarrassed for my efforts:(

let me know how it works for you
 
I know that this really doesn't matter...

but here's my $.02 worth. I have been considering sticking my feet into the water so to speak and try some br type shooting for quite some time. At 56, the positions just don't come as easy as they used to, and if I do get there, I need help getting up :eek:
So, I'm thinking heck, I've got plenty of Eley Tenex from my smallbore days. so why not bite off a piece of this action and try to get a rifle. Soooo I start asking around a little and I find that competitive rifles cost as much or more than CF's, which didn't surprise me at all and was expected, ditto for the scopes and various other equipment and I'm copacetic with that too....but...I just kept hearing that, the ammo you've got is so out of date (which I believe) that you'll just have to start all over in that department. Well, I got to figgerin (Kentucky for rithmetic) and taking into account that once the other stuff is ready, it will be time to test ammo...and thats when it hit me...hot dang! thats gonna cost a lot of semoliens :eek:
Now don't get me wrong, I wasn't mad or anything, because I've been associated with the shooting sports for a long time and it has always been an expensive proposition, especially to be competitive, and I was usually one of the guys that competed on a shoestring budget.
Now...as we speak, times are tough for a lot of folks...like less work, or none, high doctor bills, heating bills, food bills, school bills and etc, now don't get me wrong here boys, I ain't cryin the blues to you or anyone else! I am what I am and I have what I have...but there are a whole bunch of people out there that would like to participate in the shooting sports of one kind or another, but they just can't come up with a big outlay in order to make their equipment competitive and to shoot enough to make themselves competitive.
If you want to reach the masses, then formulate a competition that a whole lot more people can and will be able to afford. Talk to them (not down to them), help them out, teach, coach and prod them along...Do anything that you can to get the youth involved...or we are all going to see the numbers in our shooting sports dwindle. WE aren't getting any younger, and taking into account that very few people get out of their life alive...Try to mom and pop involved and then the kiddos'. Thats where the future is, and you know, the more people we have shooting, the more will make an effort to step up to the next level. You'd be surprised that once interest in something is developed, how hard some will try to come with the cash to step up to the next level.
Thanks for suffering through this
Mark
 
Why do people who lose money at the tables, go back again ? They had FUN !! IMHO
 
for some it's an addiction, i know i have friends who are gambling addicts.
i guess i'm a gun addict, the only money i lose is the cost of the ammo
and my time, the rest of it could be sold and break close to even. i love to
shoot always have, i sign people up at our range some ask if we have
beginner type matchs. i say well not really but you can bring any rifle and
shoot to get a feel for it. most after seeing the equipment say what's the
use i can't afford to be competitive.
 
I have to say that the price of admission is pretty high for any kind of shooting sport. I intend to do some shooting but to practice the way I normally practice will cost me more than the price of a new car. I shoot a brick or two of ammo every week except for the winter months when I only shoot a brick every two weeks. If you're shooting Eley that adds up real quick. And there just isn't any way around it.

I will take my shot at this sport but until spring breaks here it's going to be hard to shoot enough to be ready. I don't mind the cold but my fingers just don't work the same way with little Arthur getting involved. I love to shoot and some good things have happened to me lately that will definitely draw me into the sport but when I try to talk my friends into coming along they hear the price of the ammo and that's as far as the conversation usually goes.

In short I think you'd be better off limiting the price of the ammo if what you want is more shooters. Of course it's hard to be a good shooter with mediocre ammo even with a squirrel gun. Still I think it might take someone proving that cheaper ammo can compete before there is a rush of new shooters. The kids who have dad's money going through their hands are spending it on atv's, dirt bikes, and jet skis it seems to me. And that's just the ones who like to get outdoors. Most of them are video gamers where there's lots of action (in their view) for not nearly as much money.

I try to get my own kids to shoot more and I've had some success. My son loves to shoot but he doesn't really have the time to do it as much as it takes and neither does my daughter. I believe both of them could be good shooters but their time is already spoken for in so many ways between the internet, their college work and the work they do. It's just much easier for them to walk over to the computer for entertainment instead of working on a hobby that might take some dedication. My daughter shoots very well for no more than she shoots. I try to tell her she might make an Olympic shooter if she worked at it. Not interested though. She has a boyfriend, a very high gpa at Ohio St., a lot of friends that call her night and day, and the internet where she talks to all her friends at once. It's hard to get kids interested when so many things come easy for them these days. We had to work at things to be good at them when we were kids. Now if they aren't good at something they like they just move on to something else they are good at. The competition is stiff especially when they find out what it will cost them to really be good at shooting.
 
well eventually this sport too shall pass at this rate about 15 years max.
then some people will get together and start some new shooting sport
you can get into. probably old benchresters with their own range will buy
up some of the old equipment, make bulk buys on ammo and let you rent
their equipment for an hour of shooting, they'll have shooting league's
kinda like the driving range's where you rent their balls and clubs and hit
on their range and pay them a fee for the priviledge. closest to the 200
yard bull gets a free pass. oh no. i'll always be payin'. i wonder if we all
signed up with the cmp if they would loan us loaners we could use for
club benchrest guns?
 
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king ghidora,

i'm 35. i have to work for everything i have. i used to shoot centerfire mainly. let me say this. if you can't afford the very best you have no room trying to shoot with guys who are shooting the most accurate rifles you can get.

i see you posting in savage threads. you are shooting a rifle that has no place in our group!!! it will never win!! not even if you put the best barrel you can get in the action!!!!

i started out with a ruger 10/22t. then i purchased 2 savage rifles. i had the barrel on one set back with a match chamber. i glass and piller bedded it. the simple truth is there are more problems with them than you can shake a stick at!!!!

putting a limit on ammo,scopes, rifles and what ever else you can think of is not going to help.

seen it happen in forums to many times. it will start out like gang busters. with in a year it has died!!! people figure out ways around rules!!! they'll buy high priced ammo like lapua with the same head stamp like wolf or sk and put it in lower priced ammo boxes(it is human nature to want to be #1 whatever it takes)!! you can't prove they are cheating(the head stamp is the same)!!! your stuck like a pig!!!! cry like a bee atch!!!!

the only way to do it is you yourself buy all the ammo everybody shoots!!! can you afford 2 or 3 cases of ammo at one time??? that low amount is if you are lucky!!!

this is the animal we are stuck with. most young people just simply can't afford our addiction!! they want to party and drink every night( hey i drink. i drink alot, but i make serious cash). the simple fact is youth is waisted on the young!!!!!!!!!!! if we all had it to do over again, we'd be at a rifle bench(at 16 and not chasing pussy) with a rifle that cost a weeks pay(for me) or 2 monthes pay for the normal person!!!!!

there you have the truth printed in front of you. cry, whine and bee atch all you want to. you have read the simple truth!!!!

i didn't mean to rain on your or anybody else party. what i said is the truth!!


take it from a nobody from no where. that is how it will go at your matches. you'll have to hand out every bullet shot or your not ganna have a fair match. that is why your matches aren't ganna go over.

your ganna have one guy who has a rifle that loves your ammo.the rest will hate it. then everybody will have to shoot the same rifle to make it fair!!!!!

there is more to this than you can begin to think about!!!!

good ideal, but like most things in life it works out on paper, but not in real life!!!! that is the problem with college educated fools. they believe if it works out on paper or on a computer it will work out in the real world!!!! sorry it does not!!!! bee atch all you want. the truth is posted right here!!

unlimited(a.r.a.) or nothing. that is how it should be done. nothing is truely fair other wise. how many people are shooting in sporter classes with multi thousand dollar rifles that are really shooting 6x scopes? how many have sent them off and had them boosted? does anybody check them at matches? remember to want to be #1 is human. people will cheat no matter what the rules say!!!

unlimited is truely the only way to be fair!!!
 
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mr. nobody said:
unlimited(a.r.a.) or nothing. that is how it should be done. nothing is truely fair other wise. how many people are shooting in sporter classes with multi thousand dollar rifles that are really shooting 6x scopes? how many have sent them off and had them boosted? does anybody check them at matches? remember to want to be #1 is human. people will cheat no matter what the rules say!!!

unlimited is truely the only way to be fair!!!
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I am reminded of this quote:

“For when the great scorer comes to write against your name, He marks not that you won or lost but how you played the game.”​
Grantland Rice

I wouldn't cheat and my friends wouldn't cheat. We would do our very best with what we have, however. But then I am nearly twice your age and have good friends.

Concho Bill
 
Better to try than not try. We might succeed or we might fail to grow our sport.

If we don't try failure is guaranteed.

From what I have seen in my 3 years of shooting club RF and CF BR matches is that you are doing good to pick up 1 - ONE - new shooter a year. By new shooter I mean a guy that is going to try to come to every match. In CF this guy is almost always shooting a factory rifle or at least a factory action.

At the same time you are gaining this one guy it seems like one of the 'regulars' starts missing more matches.

As far as cheating goes I take a scorched earth approach. Get caught blatantly cheating and you are banned forever. I have heard a story of a competitor that got caught shooting 3 shot groups at a club CF match [ no moving backers ] a few years back before I started shooting. This guy still shows up to shoot in matches a few times a year. I can only assume that the proof was not unassailable.
 
A few random thoughts on what has been written in this thread.

If you have any inclination to shoot, show up with what you got and shoot! Don't worry about the score, nobody cares unless you win. Don't worry about weight or stock configuration the first time out. I don't know anyone who would prevent you from shooting your first match because your equipment is out of spec. If you place you will be DQ'ed, but, don't worry too much about winning your first match.;) You will be amazed at the amount of help and advice you'll receive. Most likely, you will be offered equipment to use that is legal for the game you're playing.

Statements like; "Your equipment has no business shooting with us!" Is elitist and snobby at best, destructive at worst. To point out that their equipment will not compete with dedicated bench rifles is true. The bedside manner could be improved though. Sounds like you can't be bothered by wasting time with a new guy.

If you're new, don't worry about having "killer" ammo. You won't have the experience to recognize it. Learning to read the wind takes trigger time and lots of ammo. You do need decent ammo. Old Tenex, Lapua master, and the lower grades of Eley all qualify as decent ammo.

Benchrest ain't gonna die, evolve, yes. This is for the most part an old guy's game. Not enough action for the young guys. Targets don't move, no rapid fire, not much glammer. The young shooters shoot position, and clay birds in the woods. Add to that, the dollars required to be competitive in any shooting sport. Anybody with kids home and a mortgage payment usually doesn't have a lot of excess cash laying around.

Factory classes have been tried many times in the past. Most times it's a bust. If a guy/gal wants to shoot this game, they will find a way. Few of us started out with the best equipment. Many of us started shooting with position rifles or 10-22's. Were we competitive, no, were we welcomed, definately yes.

Get off the couch and get to a match, ain't nobody gonna bite ya.

Ken Henderson
 
Well said Ken - Now, if folks would listen to what you said we wouldn't have to go over this subject time after time. Bob Vail
 
Well said Ken,

Let us just ignore nay-sayers and just help the new shooters who show up at our matches. We have friends out there that we haven't met yet.:)

Concho Bill
 
Derek takes his experience from shooting at one location, if that is incorrect I'm sure he will tell us where else he has competed. myself nor my friends would never cheat. Derek who cheats where you shoot.
 
We've been running "Plinker" category at the same time as the 50/50 Unlimited. There is only one award, that being for the best target of the day. People can use anything but a target rifle and the scopes are set at the highest common power that shows up to shoot that match. A guy with a 36x won't shoot against a guy with a 9x, unless it's agreed before the match. Award is usually just a ribbon, but it means something to the shooters. There's no cheating because there's no incentive to cheat.

Plinkers are also eligible for Unlimited awards. Sometimes, a guy shooting a "Plinker" rifle will take a 2nd or 3rd place in the Unlimited, if there aren't many shooters.

I look at the unsanctioned Plinker Category as a beginner class, but some folks don't want anything to do with the big guns, preferring to shoot their 10-22, CZ, or other sporter for several years and enjoying it tremendously. (The most common Plinker ammo is Wolf Target, but we don't care what they shoot.) If a rifle gets two scores over 240, the rifle is usually then classed as Unlimited. I've had to do that to more than a couple of guns, including one 10-22.

Picher
 
Statements like; "Your equipment has no business shooting with us!" Is elitist and snobby at best, destructive at worst.
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I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought this. I won't even go into the assumptions made about my intentions. I already said I intended to make a run at this sport and it won't be with my Savage MkII. So I don't know why someone who seems to follow me around to attack what I say wouldn't know that I have said I intend to buy a BR rifle.

Still my Savage rifle shoots pretty well for the competition I intend to shoot in at first. There is a stock rifle competition held at the club I intend to join after the first of the year. At any rate I intend to buy a much better rifle soon. The only reason I haven't done so already is that Christmas usually depletes my bank account pretty well.

My suggestion was for bringing in more shooters and despite what was said there is a very clear way to accomplish what I said. You bring ammo to the competitions to sell and only allow that ammo to be used. You can bring a wide variety of ammo and still have a limit on the price. That way most people would be able to find ammo that worked fairly well with their squirrel gun, which is what the discussion was about or that's what I thought.
 
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George, did he let the cat out of the bag on the ammo switch:roll eyes: Freudian slip I guess. geez wonder where that came from.
 
George, just got off the phone with a friend, he asked who in thier right minds wants to get involved with this bs? and he's right.
 
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