FEEDBACK FROM THE TUNNEL IN WEST TEXAS, Fireforming

reaming

my reasoning behind reaming is to get the inside of the neck parallel & flat.I haven't experienced donuts as i turn slightly into the shoulder.I turn by hand & if I don't ream I get what some call hard & soft spots I call these spots highs & lows which are tight & loose.Just because the neck is expanded doesn't mean all imperfections are stretched away.No neck turn is crazy the gunsmith gets the reamer to bore centered to the .0001's then the no neck turn offsets a bullet bore alignment why bother lining the reamer so precisely.Just my method & idea of how to do it.:eek:
Jim
 
Mckinnie

Nothing wrong with the way you prepare necks. People can get away with less, but isn't this still a competition? Those who pay attention to the details have rifles that are capable of agging better. When necks are precision reamed, there is no doubt that they are straighter inside and fit the mandrel better. This has to create a more uniform neck when it is turned. I also believe the no turn reamer is just a way of going backwards in BR. Neck turning has become the standard. I don't care if people think their brass is uniform wall thickness since it's Lapua. I have seen concentricity change when you neck down or expand necks. I believe as you do, that the best way to center the bullet in the lands, is to chamber the barrel as close to center as you can get it, and ream and turn the necks. I have the wind conditions to deal with, and that's more than enough for me. Why not get the gun as good as possible? By the way, I just fireformed 50 cases with no bullets, no lube, and no headspace, no action, no barrel, using 4831 in a Waldog size case, and achieving high pressure for tight forming.

Michael
 
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My thoughts

I have been shooting BR rifles for around 9 years now and from my experience, the Brass is simply a container for all else that matters. I have never once shot a shot that I felt the brass quality caused anything wrong to happen.

That said, I do all those steps that others do but I firmly believe that the barrel deterimnes most of what happens as long as the proper ingredients are installed in the container properly. The rest of it is just unnecessary worrrrrrry!
 
jackie schmidt said:
About three years ago, I started firing my 220 Russian cases with about 26 grns of 133 and a 22 bullet to arrive at a "factory" 6PPC case. I then neck turn them. That 22 bullet will build considerable pressure. The cases come out dead straight, and you can see exactly where the neck- shoulder junction is.
I then fire them again, (6mm this time?)and they are ready to go to the line.
If you "neck up" cases by firing them, the way I do, they will come out a little longer than if you neck them up with a mandrel. The main reason is you are "blowing forward", rather than "pressing back".

I always use a thin coat of imperial wax on the first firing, (220 Russian to 6PPC), because I have found, through trial and error, that it gives the best results.........jackie
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If I understand correctly, I need a sacrificial barrel to use this process? As I'm fairly new to this game I don't have an old barrel to dedicate to fireforming this way. Also, when neck turning would I still use the K&M mandrel to size up for the K&M neck turning tool as K&M recommends? :confused:
 
Adam

If you do not have an old barrel with yor chamber in it, then what we are doing is not practicle. Under no circumstances do this in your good barrel.
As for the turning, you will still have to neck the case up all the way for a proper fit on your neck turning tool.
My ,269 neck makes this a breeze. If I happen to use a hand turner, (not that often, I usually single point my necks in a lathe), I just take the fireformed case and gently push it onto the neck turner's arbor with a little arbor press, and turn the neck. I am able to do this because when you use a .269 neck, the ID only has to expand a small amount to fit the arbor after you fire it in a .269 neck chamber.........jackie
,
 
Jackie

jackie schmidt said:
If you do not have an old barrel with yor chamber in it, then what we are doing is not practicle. Under no circumstances do this in your good barrel.
As for the turning, you will still have to neck the case up all the way for a proper fit on your neck turning tool.
My ,269 neck makes this a breeze. If I happen to use a hand turner, (not that often, I usually single point my necks in a lathe), I just take the fireformed case and gently push it onto the neck turner's arbor with a little arbor press, and turn the neck. I am able to do this because when you use a .269 neck, the ID only has to expand a small amount to fit the arbor after you fire it in a .269 neck chamber.........jackie
,
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Thanks for the response. My current situation is that I have a LV gun with two barrels one a .262 neck and the other a .269. I just bought a used HV gun that has a .262 neck barrel. Maybe what I need to do is buy my own .269 reamer and open up the neck on those two .262 neck barrels. Could I do this without setting the barrels back? :confused: I would think so.
 
I just did the old "fire the 22 down the 6mm barrel" tonight for the first time. I think it is my new favorite way of fireforming.

All I did was load some 55 grain .22 cal Sierra BT's into the russian behind 49 and a half clicks of H322 and popped them off. No turning, no trimming, no prep whatsover.They formed perfectly and the necks did end up straighter than the other ways.

I used wax on one of the cases and it formed out to the same length as the dry ones.

Now I will trim and chamfer then expand them on a sinclair .001" oversized mandrel and turn them down to .0085" for my .262" neck. I wish it was a .269" neck though just so it would make the turning job quicker. We know we don't gain any accuracy having such thin necks anymore.

Anyhow, this is a very slick way of fireforming. And it was fun seeing where the .22 caliber bullets would hit downrange! Some landed WAAYY off from where the barrel was pointed!:eek:
 
how far WAAYY off?

goodgrouper said:
And it was fun seeing where the .22 caliber bullets would hit downrange! Some landed WAAYY off from where the barrel was pointed!:eek:
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When I first heard of this technique, I thought it should only be done while pointing very close at a berm. If shooting at a normal 100 or 200 yards, the potential to hit a target frame, wind flag, or God forbid - put an unstablized round over a berm seemed pretty high. I'm curious how far off your aim point you saw rounds impacting and at what range.
 
GG, you said, ''I wish it was a .269" neck though just so it would make the turning job quicker. We know we don't gain any accuracy having such thin necks anymore.''

I'm curious, have any major matches been won by shooters using .269 necks or any world records been set with the thick necks? I'm unaware, that's why I ask..
 
Pat B. said:
GG, you said, ''I wish it was a .269" neck though just so it would make the turning job quicker. We know we don't gain any accuracy having such thin necks anymore.''

I'm curious, have any major matches been won by shooters using .269 necks or any world records been set with the thick necks? I'm unaware, that's why I ask..
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duh....jackie you want to give him a list....

you want to put together a list of all the matches lost by using thin necks.
(lol....yes everyone that did not win is a looser, and most are thin necks....just lemmings..."casue its always been done that way")

mike in co...mr 270 neck
 
Mike,
Pat has shot more rounds in a month for several years than most people shoot in a lifetime. He has probably chambered more barrels in different configurations than most gunsmiths. What does a .269 neck give you?
Butch
 
Woody said:
When I first heard of this technique, I thought it should only be done while pointing very close at a berm. If shooting at a normal 100 or 200 yards, the potential to hit a target frame, wind flag, or God forbid - put an unstablized round over a berm seemed pretty high. I'm curious how far off your aim point you saw rounds impacting and at what range.
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At this rifle range I was shooting, the max distance is 100 yards and the whole range is dug out of a mountain. The sides are about 10 feet high and the 100 yard backstop is about 40 feet high. It is underdeveloped and there is nothing downrange but some old target holders that are made out of rubber and signposts that have a billion holes in them already. I did not have my windflags set out as I was only fireforming.

I usually aimed at the ground directly in front of my bench about 50 yards out and I saw impacts as close as 25 yards and as far out as the bottom of the 100 yard burm. There was also some severe left/right dispersion as much as 25 yards from where I was aiming.

I even had 5 or 6 bullets come apart in flight and make two dust clouds about 5 feet apart at 30 yards. I had not heard of this happening before but perhaps it was because the Sierra bullets I used where blitzkings and they are super frangible.

I absolutely would not try this fireforming method on practice day of the match! I wouldn't even use this method at a range that has nice target frames or where other people have targets hanging. You could easily hit a frame or someone else's target unless you pointed the muzzle straight down in front of you no farther than 25 or 30 yards out. Even then I don't know.
 
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Butch

I have stated many many times that the only reason I shoot a .269 neck is it makes turning necks so much easier. I can't tell the difference in accuracy from one neck thickness to another.
I just might go to a .270 next year.

Pat is correct. I am just a Region Level Shooter who has occasionally done OK........jackie
 
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Pat B. said:
GG, you said, ''I wish it was a .269" neck though just so it would make the turning job quicker. We know we don't gain any accuracy having such thin necks anymore.''

I'm curious, have any major matches been won by shooters using .269 necks or any world records been set with the thick necks? I'm unaware, that's why I ask..
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Yes, there are many guys using .269" or .268" necks now. I have one on my 6br and it shoots as good (or better) than my other one that is a .263". As for world records, I'm not sure. But the potential is there.

As long as the brass neck walls are uniform and normal pressures are used, it shouldn't make any difference how thick the necks are. It has just been a tradition since way back that "you gotta have a .262" or it won't shoot. ANd you know how "sheepy" benchrest shooters can be. If one sheep jumps the fence, they all gotta jump the fence.
 
Jackie, we all know your track record as a shooter, it's exceptional. My query wasn't directed at you. I was simply wondering if Nationals, Super Shoot winners and record setters have mimicked your success with the thicker necks.
 
Nobody is jumping on Jackie or disagreeing with him. Jackie is a good friend. Pat asked a valid question to determine if it is worth buying new reamers and the other associated gear needed to change neck size. If the winners are using it and it shoots much better, than you buy it.
Butch
 
Hey Pat Byrne...

...if "mikey in co" doesn't want you playin' in his "sandbox", you can come over and play in the sandbox with Scott, Butch & me...!!! ;)
 
pat, butch aqnd jackie,
first i copied jackie with my reamer but went one bigger to 270.
as most know i'm probably less than a novice, so i do not count.
what does a 270 neck give me ?? more shooting time! one pass, plain and simple. i dont worry about my necks failing if i look at them hard. most of us know that the 262 is based on poor brass, we dont have that today, but the sheeple just continue doing the same thing over and over. is there anything wrong with this ? probably not, but it does show just how much 6ppc shooting is follow the leader with a few exceptions( gene, and jackie to name two)and a waste of time to get that thin.

if a hof shooter refused to post because i pointed to exactly what the guy asked,,,well he is too thin skinned.

the 6ppc is a great record setting round, but the thin neck is ancient history.
my guess is that it is still here because of sheeple and the admitted cost of going to a new reamer, and then having mixed brass till all guns in the inventory have the thick neck. since i was starting new, going striaght to 270 was no issue for me.

no insult, or disrespect was meant to anyone, i read and absorb most of what jackie and butch post. pat i do not know.

mike in co
 
Thanks GG

goodgrouper said:
I usually aimed at the ground directly in front of my bench about 50 yards out and I saw impacts as close as 25 yards and as far out as the bottom of the 100 yard burm. There was also some severe left/right dispersion as much as 25 yards from where I was aiming.

I even had 5 or 6 bullets come apart in flight and make two dust clouds about 5 feet apart at 30 yards. I had not heard of this happening before but perhaps it was because the Sierra bullets I used where blitzkings and they are super frangible.
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Wow, that's amazing. I can see someone trying this in a normal range setting and this is an excellent report that will hopefully dissuade anyone. Thanks much.
 
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