FEEDBACK FROM THE TUNNEL IN WEST TEXAS, Fireforming

I not only lubricate the case but also fire the first time with only 20 grains of N133, H322, 8208, Benchmark or whatever I'm using.
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About what percentage of a regular load is this? And why so light?

Thanks
Tony Carpenter
 
Gene Beggs said:
Once in a while, a real jewel of information comes along that really makes a difference.


This is very important. Why? It prevents the cases from tightening up in the chamber prematurely. A properly fireformed case, sized with a good die that fits the chamber, goes in and out of the rifle like butter and lasts almost forever.

Questions? Let's talk about it.

Later,

Gene Beggs
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I still subscribe to the argument that if the case base to be fireformed is not already being held firmly against the bolt face , by a false shoulder, tightly jammed bullet. etc., that lubing the case body and chamber is not going to have an effect anyhoo.
 
jackie schmidt said:
About three years ago, I started firing my 220 Russian cases with about 26 grns of 133 and a 22 bullet to arrive at a "factory" 6PPC case. I then neck turn them. That 22 bullet will build considerable pressure. The cases come out dead straight, and you can see exactly where the neck- shoulder junction is.
I then fire them again, and they are ready to go to the line.
If you "neck up" cases by firing them, the way I do, they will come out a little longer than if you neck them up with a mandrel. The main reason is you are "blowing forward", rather than "pressing back".

I always use a thin coat of imperial wax on the first firing, (220 Russian to 6PPC), because I have found, through trial and error, that it gives the best results.........jackie
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Jackie you dont do any thing else, no false shoulder just a 22 bullet in 220 case little wax and fire in (down the tube) hole. with your 6mm fire form barrel. no prom, with stretching at the web.
 
nothin like gettin your Gene's mixed up...hahah

Hi again Gene...oooo yea now I remeber you....your the one that cant shoot wortha darn but is a snappy dresser....:D.hahah....I havent seen the other Gene in prolly 10yrs...somehow when I heard of Gene doin good I just thought of you and your "Foster Grant's" .....I think I will just go and take my heart medication and watch the scenery go by....Keep up the good work on those "wildcats.." .....I think it is a geat idea and will simplify our shooting greatly....I am all for the no turn necks....that is all have shot for the last several yrs and with the good brass we have is is better to leave the neck wall thick to get the added neck tension...IMHO....have a great day...Roger
 
Tim

That's it. You can check the shoulder to base dimension on every one, and they are identicle.
My "fireforming barrel" produces a case that is exactly the same headspace as my average chamber. That way, after that second firing, it is just like it was shot in one of my Competition Rifles.
Just my opinion, but I think when it comes to making a 6PPC out of a 220 Russian, many over complicate the entire procedure. I take a 220 Russian case, fill it with 133 to the neck shoulder junction,, seat a cheap 22 cailber bullet, but a thin coat of sizing wax on it, and shoot. What coems out is a perfect non-neck turned 6PPC case. Heck, if you were shooting a .272 neck, you could us it just like that.
Of course, when you get into radical case forming, moving shoulders back, and the sort, some of the more dragconian methods are required. But 220 Russian to 6PPC. Come on guys, it ain't that complicated.........jackie
 
Gene,
What are your thoughts on my theory that the brass work hardens after several firings. My experience has been that cases shot several times at reduced loads will repond much better to thier first dose of over 29 gr of 133. I always thought that I was simply work hardening the brass on the initial firings along with blowing them out. If I ever go to a stout load before 2 firings at a reduced charge I get way too much expansion in the web area. That web expansion seems to be much reduced after a little work hardening. I always have had chambers that required a bump with the FL die in order to get the bolt to close on the first firing. I've never really worried about stretching them.
 
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I do a variation of what Jackie described. I Expand and turn at .22 cal. to a neck thickness that leaves a minimum of material to be turned at 6mm. Lopsided cuts on shoulders are primarily caused because the neck is cocked during expanding with a mandrel. The more you expand with a mandrel, the greater the average crookedness produced. Going up to .22 turning ID is a small move. By turning at that point the amount of expansion needed to get up to 6mm turning ID (after shooting a .22 caliber bullet down a 6mm bore) is kept to a minimum. This would not be needed with a larger chamber neck such a Jackie uses, but mine is a .262. BTW I take no chances with the .22 firing. I stand within 6’ of a tall dirt bank, and fire into it at a slight angle. I have not tried any lubrication, I may. The on shoulder cuts produced by this method are very even. I look for the full width of the cutter bevel, and start to pull back when I get there.
 
Russ Hardy said:
Gene,
What are your thoughts on my theory that the brass work hardens after several firings. My experience has been that cases shot several times at reduced loads will repond much better to thier first dose of over 29 gr of 133. I always thought that I was simply work hardening the brass on the initial firings along with blowing them out. If I ever go to a stout load before 2 firings at a reduced charge I get way too much expansion in the web area. That web expansion seems to be much reduced after a little work hardening. I always have had chambers that required a bump with the FL die in order to get the bolt to close on the first firing. I've never really worried about stretching them.
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Hi Russ

No question about it, cases work harden after several firings. I can understand why your cases withstand more pressure after they are fired several times.
 
so

you guys dont ream or turn the inside of your necks?:confused:
 
Wish I would have thought of that, thanks Mr Beggs.

I still have lots of 6mm BR brass to fireform for my Dasher. If you somehow lost a bet :D and had to do this, what would you do?

I was hydraulically forming them with oil, which I really don't enjoy, and loading normal. 34.0gr varget with 108 Bergers, not a light load btw. Powder is crunching but it shoots.
 
PEI Rob said:
Wish I would have thought of that, thanks Mr Beggs.

I still have lots of 6mm BR brass to fireform for my Dasher. If you somehow lost a bet :D and had to do this, what would you do?

I was hydraulically forming them with oil, which I really don't enjoy, and loading normal. 34.0gr varget with 108 Bergers, not a light load btw. Powder is crunching but it shoots.
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I have no experience with the Dasher or with hydraulic case forming. I would seek the advice of those who are shooting the Dasher successfully.
 
Boyd Allen said:
I I Expand and turn at .22 cal. to a neck thickness that leaves a minimum of material to be turned at 6mm. Lopsided cuts on shoulders are primarily caused because the neck is cocked during expanding with a mandrel. The more you expand with a mandrel, the greater the average crookedness produced..
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This lopsidedness is a result of mandrel expanding rather than fire forming. Some minor expanding is necessary to get the proper fit on the turning tool mandrel or the lathe mandrel, but just expanding up from 22 to 6mm in one step is what causes that problem,
 
???

I do not know anybody that reams the inside of necks when going from 220 Russian to 6PPC. there might be some, though.
There are those that get hung up on the infamous "do-nut", and will run a suitable reamer in to remove it. But I found that, in my opinion, to be a waste of time.
I guess I should ask.Why would you see the need to ream the inside of the necks when using a 220 Russian to make a 6PPC??........jackie
 
Yeah - All I do is neck turn the outside. I don't even fiddle with the primer hole anymore. I do uniform the primer pocket, but only because I also use my skippy tool for a cleaner.
 
donut..??

I feel the same as Jackie and others...the donut is no problem in a PPC or BR...the 60-70 gr bullets that we use even with "0" freebore never reach the area....oooo yea some will say it is a funnel/venturi effect.....I shure cant tell it .....Roger
 
But if you insist or are making short 22's

A year or so ago Larry Cohen had someone make him a guided inside neck reamer to ream the short 22 he was shooting. Larry sent me a couple of the finished product, looked great. Larry even set a new NBRSA record with it. Then Larry quit shooting after hurricane Katrina hit the gulf coast.

I don't know if the NBRSA record, Katrina, or neck reaming that made Larry quit shooting.

http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43515&highlight=Cohen
 
while we are on the subject

Gene ...what freebore do you use with your 22 cal Beggs....I know lots of folks use from .000 to .040 with the 6mm ...but am wondering if some FB in the chamber helps with bullet alighnment or not??!!especilally ...does it vary with the no turn neck vs. the tite neck chamber....or does it depend on bullet profile/ogive etc....thanks Roger
 
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