Do we clean our Rifles too much?

jackie schmidt

jackie schmidt

New member
As many of you know, quite a few of us who shoot 30 caliber Rifles in Competition do not clean our Rifles at Matches. I will usually shoot an entire Grand Agg without cleaning. Sometimes the last target is the best target.

Last year at Denton, at one of the few Group Matches I made, I wasn't shooting that well, so I decided to try something for the heck of it. I did not clean my 6PPC LV for an entire Agg. It turned out to be the best Agg of the Week end. Shot a .205 Agg.

After the match, I cleaned the barrel, and it seemed no more fouled and dirty than if I had been cleaning it after each group. All of my barrels are Kriegers.

Just something for thought.
 
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On the advice of a forum member I'm cleaning less. Used to hit the bore after every 12 - 16 (PPC). Last week I stretched it to around 25 and the groups were as good, if not better, than before. Good question Jackie and I'm curious to know what others think.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com
 
I know we clean too much im just scared to get into that match where im to the point where i shoulda cleaned! I been doing 2 groups before cleaning and its not too dirty at that point.
 
I've been trying to keep from over cleaning but to scared its gonna bite me if I don't.
I've watched some guys that seem to have found a compromise they still clean after each group.
But they don't scrub it to death.
 
One instance I find where not cleaning in VFS is a plus is when he says "commerce fire", and I see my condition there, I will go straight to the #1 bull, and never shoot a sighter. I really do it quite often.

Nothing irritates me more than wasting an X on the sighter.
 
With a barrel that has the bore in good order, no or very little pitting, and a load that is burning clean and in that bore that is not coppering, nor has had a history of coppering, you would be amazed as to how many shots can be fired without effecting accuracy.

I recently shot a UBR 100/200 event that requires 48 record shots plus sighters. At the end I had fired some 60 shots without cleaning in a 6 year old barrel that had some 1500 rounds through it previously. As to coppering, this barrel had never coppered..

I must state that in the last 20 or so barrels I have chambered and broken I have never had copper show up when I ran Sweets through them at break-in. Is this old "break-in routine" been over emphasized? Are there chambering methods that encourage coppering? Dunno! One exception to the above, I did have a barrel that showed coppering in the mid section. Upon re-slugging this bore it had a bulge some 6" long. Was this caused by the manufacturer trying to lap out an inclusion? Dunno. But I sent that barrel back and got an immediate replacement, no questions ask.

As to the general requirements on cleaning, it is up to the barrel bore condition, the load being shot, and the powder used. You just have to try that barrel, it WILL tell you.


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Some after-thoughts and suggestions;

We all know that after a thorough cleaning a barrel requires 2-3 shots to settle back in. In rimfire this is sometimes 12-15 shots.
During this time you are taking up valuable time off your allotted time.

If you do decide to go 2-3,4, 5 targets without cleaning, fire one shot into the sighter for two reasons' first it gives the person scoring the targets a reference as to what size hole your bullets are making, and, two, it gives you advance notice if conditions have changed since your last target..... i.e. did that bullet hit where you expected it to?

Many shooters use a post-cleaning bore conditioner like NAPA LockEez or Montana Extreme Accuracy oil. While this post-conditioning normally adds to the number of shots you can shoot between cleanings, it, most times takes 1-2 more shots to getting a just-cleaned barrel going again.


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Especially if you finish your cleaning with J-B. I find I need to put at least 2 and sometimes 3 in the sighter to get to where Jerry is saying.
 
I have never put JB in a barrel. Never had a reason too.

In fact, the only thing I have put in any of my barrels for the past decade+ is Butches Bore Shine.
 
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Back in the days of Moly coated bullets the rave then was less cleaning, you could shoot a whole agg without cleaning your barrel and other claims that may or may not have been true. I never got to the point that I would shoot a complete agg but I definitely cleaned less and it shot very well for about 1200 rounds and then started to go south. I went from local hero to village idiot in a couple matches. I was not about to give up on that barrel so I had it rechambered after cutting the threads off and my gunsmith informed me that he had to JB the daylights out of it just to get the pilot of the reamer in. Well it did not shoot very well after that. This was before bore scopes became popular.
Right or wrong I came to the conclusion that cleaning is to keep the crud from building up and bullets ironing it into the barrel, to much cleaning or to clean is also unnecessary because a barrel that is totally clean rarely shoots the same as as the next rounds fired through the fouling of the previous shots. I was always trying to find a balance. I find new barrels need a minimum of cleaning and as they get more and more rounds through them they need more frequent and more aggressive cleaning. I have a barrel right now that has 2500 rounds through it and while it might not win the super shoot, it does very well for about 9 -10 shots and then it goes down hill. I have used GM top engine for regular cleaning and then I have to run some rem clean after 40 or more shots to keep it shooting.
 
I think,

Barrels tell us what they like or will tolerate. I shot 30's for a long time and never cleaned all day. After a time. accuracy fell off.

Carbon seems to be insidious in that it lays down and the harder it gets, the harder it gets. Lots of people seem to misjudge firecracking for carbon build up. A little Clover on a patch usually takes the firecracking away, or at least it does for me. I have noticed that once that crazed looking mess is present, it will re-appear more readily.

Think about this; barrels are lapped when they are made. How is touching them up going to hurt anything? It would take a lot of work to lap any meaningful metal out of a barrel with a patch on a jag but that combo will freshen u a barrel and quite easily.

Some barrels will shoot anything one puts in them and 30's seem to be more forgiving with regard to cleaning or the lack there of. I have come to believe that the carbon thing will eventually catch up if one doesn't remove it quite often. I am cleaning after every two cards these days. My rifles, generally, have never shot better than when they were spotless but the odd barrel likes to be dirty to shoot well. The barrels tell us what they need.

Pete
 
jackie schmidt said:
As many of you know, quite a few of us who shoot 30 caliber Rifles in Competition do not clean our Rifles at Matches. I will usually shoot an entire Grand Agg without cleaning. Sometimes the last target is the best target.

Last year at Denton, at one of the few Group Matches I made, I wasn't shooting that well, so I decided to try something for the heck of it. I did not clean my 6PPC LV for an entire Agg. It turned out to be the best Agg of the Week end. Shot a .205 Agg.

After the match, I cleaned the barrel, and it seemed no more fouled and dirty than if I had been cleaning it after each group. All of my barrels are Kriegers.

Just something for thought.
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I will give that an adamant yes. At least as it pertains to 30 calibers. As an experiment, I didn't clean the barrel on my HBR rifle for two whole years and it still shot well enough to win a yardage at 2012 nationals. I couldn't see any difference. I was shooting N135 in a 30X47. I'm no group shooter but have also done well in a group match with an "dirty" 30BR.

As a barrel maker though, I would encourage people to clean after every target. Preferably with some sort of abrasive like IOSSO or JB. The can of worms has now been opened.
 
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In my limited experience, different barrels may have quite different preferences as to how often they should be cleaned. I had one 6PPC barrel that would tighten up as it got dirtier. I never took it too far, but there was never a problem with three matches with a moderate number of sighters, shooting 133.

Years ago, the only time that I know of that George Kelbly shot a match at Visalia, I had the pleasure of discussing several things with him. One was the topic of this thread. At the time, it seemed that a lot of shooters were cleaning between every match. He told me that he thought that benchrest shooters were cleaning more often than they needed to, and that after every second or third match would be plenty. After that, that is exactly what I did, and later, I went to not brushing until the end of an agg. I would short stroke several patches from end to end, paying quite a bit more attention to the throat, and that seemed to work out just fine, again with 133. Having been lucky enough to have had the occasional use of a good bore scope during that time, I came to the conclusion that 133 does not seem to have hard carbon issues, and that Butch's patches and bronze brushes were all that was required. I could not say the same for other powders, and in those cases, the advantage of a bore scope is that you can learn when a problem actually may be because of a hard carbon buildup, and how often you have to use IOSSO to stay ahead of it. The other thing that is very beneficial is being able to determine the minimum amount of cleaning that it will take to get that job done. I believe in abrasive cleaners when they are absolutely needed, but treat them with the same respect that I do a sharp knife, being careful when using them, and remembering to not become careless.
 
As to the mild abrasives like JB, Iosso, Montana Xtreme bore polish, there are times that some of these abrasives are required. You can take all the strokes your arm will allow with a brush and solvent, then LOOK at the bore carefully with a good borescope. You will find sometimes it takes more than the newer solvents.

Walt Fafta now has the "old" JB he used to make for someone else. He sells it in a tube under the name of JB. It works well as does Iosso. None of these "soft clay" or AO abrasives are going to remove any steel. They are simply too soft. Using a hard abrasive like Silicon Carbide (valve grinding compounds) will take off metal. Keep in mind that outside of diamond abrasives, Silicon Carbide is the only other commonly used abrasive to grind carbide tools. Those green wheels on a carbide grinder are Silicon Carbide.


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I'm not sure - -

JerrySharrett said:
As to the mild abrasives like JB, Iosso, Montana Xtreme bore polish, there are times that some of these abrasives are required. You can take all the strokes your arm will allow with a brush and solvent, then LOOK at the bore carefully with a good borescope. You will find sometimes it takes more than the newer solvents.

Walt Fafta now has the "old" JB he used to make for someone else. He sells it in a tube under the name of JB. It works well as does Iosso. None of these "soft clay" or AO abrasives are going to remove any steel. They are simply too soft. Using a hard abrasive like Silicon Carbide (valve grinding compounds) will take off metal. Keep in mind that outside of diamond abrasives, Silicon Carbide is the only other commonly used abrasive to grind carbide tools. Those green wheels on a carbide grinder are Silicon Carbide.


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What grit is in Clover but from my experience, the 180 breaks down readily. It is going to first cut whatever fouling is present. I don't push it beyond that. Hey, barrels are going to wear out anyway, why not keep them as sharp as we can along the way. A notable Rimfire Gunsmith who does a lot of lapping said on a public forum that Clover on a rag would not take of very much, if any metal. I think the difference between a grinding wheel on a surface grinder is a whole lot different than lapping parts. I know it is common practice for toolmakers to lap parts for an exact fit and we are talking microns here, eh? From my experience, the metal removal with a patch and clover is far less than lapping two die pieces together.

I started out with 1200 and am at 180 at this time. 180 reduces the number of strokes required to cut the fouling. They wear out anyway - - -

Pete
 
Pete Wass said:
What grit is in Clover but from my experience, the 180 breaks down readily. It is going to first cut whatever fouling is present. I don't push it beyond that. Hey, barrels are going to wear out anyway, why not keep them as sharp as we can along the way. A notable Rimfire Gunsmith who does a lot of lapping said on a public forum that Clover on a rag would not take of very much, if any metal. I think the difference between a grinding wheel on a surface grinder is a whole lot different than lapping parts. I know it is common practice for toolmakers to lap parts for an exact fit and we are talking microns here, eh? From my experience, the metal removal with a patch and clover is far less than lapping two die pieces together.

I started out with 1200 and am at 180 at this time. 180 reduces the number of strokes required to cut the fouling. They wear out anyway - - -

Pete
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Pete, all the Clover brand lapping compound I've ever seen is Silicon Carbide. After all a valve lapping compound is made and used to remove metal.

Some of these fairly recent "fire lapping" compounds were mostly Silicon carbide. They are intended to take very rough bores of commercial barrels and smoothing them down somewhat.

Walt Faftas company United States Products (USP) offers a wide variety of lapping compounds, some mold and fine (1200 grit) and some very course. They also make the RemClean in 55 gal drums for Remington.

A knowledgeable gunsmith can improve even benchrest quality finished barrels...one particular does and gets as much as $3,000 for a finished barrel.

http://www.us-products.com/home.html

https://www.uspborepaste.com/



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Let me clarify something about removing metal with gritty substances.

There are two general classifications of grits whether grinding wheels or particles. The two are embedding and non embedding types. Embedding grits are harder than the the material they are used with, meaning the grit particles can actually embed in the material. Non-embedding grit is softer than the material and are softer than the material.

Both embedding and non-embedding will remove the subject material. One is primarily for material removal and the other is primarily for polishing..



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Whatever it is, develop a cleaning routine that works for all barrels and stick with it. I'm speaking to Benchrest barrels and will add that if a barrel requires additional cleaning then start saving for another one right away. I'll also say that it won't help to do the "additional cleaning" but that's just my experience.
 
Thank You Jerry,

I have added them both to my favorites. What I was looking for was a media that was fast acting. I didn't want to do a lot of rubbing and removing metal. So far, the 180 seems to do exactly that.; of course, I don't have the measuring equipment or know how to measure the hole after.

I would not scrub a barrel with the 180. I suppose the term "lapping" is wrongly used for what I have been doing. A tight patch does not give a lot of support to the media after 3 or 4 strokes. That much, though will almost always remove all baked on carbon and, as I said, these barrels are wearing out all the time if we never touched them with abrasives. Two of my Rimfire barrels will be starting their 5th season and while I don't win every match, they often put up good results and win some. They got me into the IR 50/50 Hall of Fame during their first two years.

As for Centerfire rifles, I have always shot 30's and mostly HBR 30's. I have done every combination of cleaning there is and I found that while they will shoot a 5 card match competitively without cleaning, they become progressively harder to clean using conventional solvents, etc. I wanted quick and I found it, as far as I can tell.

The abrasives in the links you sent are interesting and I will look into them and will probably try the recommended compound for SS if I can get small enough quantity.

Thanks again,

Pete
 
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