Capitol City, Maine 5-24-14 results

Klayton

Gordon and I are are planning on coming to your state shoot .Now for stirring with 2 HOF points you might need a bigger spoon.
 
Mel Eck said:
Gordon and I are are planning on coming to your state shoot .Now for stirring with 2 HOF points you might need a bigger spoon.
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HOF Points are real hard to earn in Maine, too many other good shooters with Coopers, a little better than me up here, I make no excuses there! I was talking the current List and UL listings. Hope to see you in Maine for a fun day of shooting. Oh forgot too add this is only my 4th year of competition literally, however with a career in the Army and Law Enforcement, I know a "good rifle" when I see one. Again no excuses, my sporter, and the two 10.5 rifles are brand new this year. They are just getting broken in.
 
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I have a Cooper 57M Classic, damn fine rifle for what it is. I used to shoot it in local BR matches back in the day and it was great for giving me the bug and I won with it from time to time. As an action, it has some flaws. The biggest being that it has no closing cam. The two little ones opposite the bolt lug have very little surface area and are prone to wear. A Cooper with a good barrel can be a decent place to start, but the action is not up to benchrest standards. It just isn't. It just doesn't compare to a Turbo sporter action. With that said, I am a Cooper fan. I shot it today in fact and it shot better than it has a right to. It's no where near my Turbo Sporter however.
 
Bill B said:
I have a Cooper 57M Classic, damn fine rifle for what it is. I used to shoot it in local BR matches back in the day and it was great for giving me the bug and I won with it from time to time. As an action, it has some flaws. The biggest being that it has no closing cam. The two little ones opposite the bolt lug have very little surface area and are prone to wear. A Cooper with a good barrel can be a decent place to start, but the action is not up to benchrest standards. It just isn't. It just doesn't compare to a Turbo sporter action. With that said, I am a Cooper fan. I shot it today in fact and it shot better than it has a right to. It's no where near my Turbo Sporter however.
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Now I am hoping a good friend of mine will build me a sporter, on a Cooper action this winter. The classic's issue to me is how the stock rides in a rest and not the action. I started with a JSR 4 years ago and real fast seen the need for a different stock. Thanks for your input a wee bit of support for Coopers.
 
First Sergeant said:
HOF Points are real hard to earn in Maine, too many other good shooters with Coopers, a little better than me up here, I make no excuses there! I was talking the current List and UL listings. Hope to see you in Maine for a fun day of shooting. Oh forgot too add this is only my 4th year of competition literally, however with a career in the Army and Law Enforcement, I know a "good rifle" when I see one. Again no excuses, my sporter, and the two 10.5 rifles are brand new this year. They are just getting broken in.
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With all due respect, the Army and/or Law Enforcement would be the last place you're going to learn anything about a benchrest rifle. Maybe you should take a glance at some match reports with equipment lists.
 
I got to thinking about this

Mel Eck said:
Do these coopers win at anything above club level matches?
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I think the average shooter is ONLY concerned about club matches and mostly in one particular geographical area they happen to live in. If folks can be competitive with whatever, why should it matter to anyone else? After all, all one has to do is to look at the scores the rifles shoot and that will more or less tell the story. We have been getting 12 or 13 shooters to our matches, often far more than many other venues get. Our scores are generally no different than the others I have seen this Spring. We have had the same rotten weather other places have had.

It is my belief that the current crop of Coopers have far better barrels than Coopers from the past. The company that makes their barrels has accuracy figured out, from what I see AND there has been some improvements to the bolts, I am told. That said, I still place little emphasis on Actions, from what I have seen. When I was a kid, I use to get a new fishing rod every Spring. I thought a new rod and reel would enable me to catch more fish. I think the same mentality exists in the firearms game. I have seen plenty of Suhls and 40-Xes win matches as I have seen the few Coopers we have up here. It is mostly about the quality of the barrel's internal finish, the ammo the barrel likes and the shooter's ability to read the wind indicators. Very little else matters, IMHO. All new stuff does is create a bigger market for folks making stuff to sell. Old auctioned rifles with good barrels still win matches, will continue to do so and what difference does it make in the end?

I like new stuff as well as the average lad but of all the Custom Rifles I have had made and owned over the years, I never saw any of them make me a bigger winner than I was or have been. I have never practiced in all the years I have been shooting Competitive Benchrest. I simply show up and do the best I can. It isn't Blood Sport to me. I appreciate Being There, enjoying the company of the " Decent" people there and have made scores of friends along the way. I have little regard for loud, obnoxious people and breast beaters. Don't need em to make my life complete. I enjoy the "Trip". The best of it in the end; good friends and being there.

Pete
 
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tim said:
With all due respect, the Army and/or Law Enforcement would be the last place you're going to learn anything about a benchrest rifle. Maybe you should take a glance at some match reports with equipment lists.
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Oh, believe me, Sir, I have, Calfee Rifles I've used, Wore out a barrel on ULA #20 no less, shot a couple well made Turbos. Now own 2 complete sets of wind flags, by Wick, once owned by Steve Duffin and his wind probe. Randolph MFG. Rest and a Papas Rest used every match. Jewel Triggers on all current rifles. Old Leopold, Premire boosted scopes of 40 power plus top them. On my sporter is an old Burris AO fixed 6 power scope. The military and law enforcement teach marksmanship. Spray and pray I was not taught. Brian Volker, Pete Wass, Ken Henderson, John Piche, Gary Hamilton, and Paul Bendix have all had a hand in mentoring me and taught me a lot. Bottom Line Up Front, With all due respect, this boys Daddy did not raise no fool. PS been known to hit a quarter inch dot at 150 yards with a Cooper Model 16, 6BR, MORE THAN ONCE. The ammo, premium hand loaded components. Thank you for your advice and I hope my Tactful reply hurt no feelings, it is The First Sergeant coming out in me.
 
Good evening Pete. Some of my ramblings have Team Hamilton Captain input. He is just sitting back chuckling. And Pete I do not say it enough, thank you for your quite mentoring, I do listen. There are truly so many variables to remember. Concentrate on one, muck up another.

Good night Deacon
 
That's great, except nobody is talking about what the average shooters ambitions are. The discussion is about the most capable platform that will allow its owner the most consistent odds to perform at his best level. That said there is more than ample data out there to suggest what those components tend to be.
Given the choices what would you prefer, equipment above you're current talent level that allows you to progress or something that may very well shackle you for unexplained reasons. The former go on to win matches, the latter get passed by fairly quick.
I'm sure those winning gunsmiths use this stuff for a reason, wouldn't you think?
 
Well, you are a driven man Tim

tim said:
That's great, except nobody is talking about what the average shooters ambitions are. The discussion is about the most capable platform that will allow its owner the most consistent odds to perform at his best level. That said there is more than ample data out there to suggest what those components tend to be.
Given the choices what would you prefer, equipment above you're current talent level that allows you to progress or something that may very well shackle you for unexplained reasons. The former go on to win matches, the latter get passed by fairly quick.
I'm sure those winning gunsmiths use this stuff for a reason, wouldn't you think?
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And a lot of the rest of us are just enjoying our lives . There is a big difference. You probably don't recognize that but in the end, it's only about having fun. None of us are going to ever make a dime at shooting and having been at the top of the heap once, I fond it a very hollow and empty experience. I decided having fun was way more important to me. There are no winning gunsmiths, by the way, unless they happen to be shooting. There are winning shooters. This game is about Shooters, the way I see it.

How about those OLD Auctioned Rifles that win in the ARA events often, by the way. Don't you think there may be some other things at play there other than the newest, latest action being produced? I don't think it takes much vision to see through it.

Pete
 
Pete Wass said, >>"That said, I still place little emphasis on Actions, from what I have seen. When I was a kid, I use to get a new fishing rod every Spring. I thought a new rod and reel would enable me to catch more fish. I think the same mentality exists in the firearms game. I have seen plenty of Suhls and 40-Xes win matches as I have seen the few Coopers we have up here. It is mostly about the quality of the barrel's internal finish,"<<

If that is so Pete, why are you the only Match Director that includes in their results posts here the ACTION that each of the top 3 shooters at your matches use? If you believe it's more about the barrel, why not note the barrel maker next to the shooter's name. If you truly believe that it is all about the shooter, why mention any equipment at all?

We are getting it, some of the Maine shooters like swimming against the tide. That's ok, I can understand the fun in that. I do a bit of it myself, but if you're going to do that and want to keep your head above water, you better be a strong swimmer.
 
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K80skeet & First Sergeant You guys need to load up your wind flags, rests and your coopers with all the barrel polish and head to the nationals in september. When you get back we will have something to talk about .

Gordon Eck rifles have won at this level.Pete didnt you have a hot shooting cooper at Salem last year?
 
Mel Eck said:
K80skeet & First Sergeant You guys need to load up your wind flags, rests and your coopers with all the barrel polish and head to the nationals in september. When you get back we will have something to talk about .

Gordon Eck rifles have won at this level.Pete didnt you have a hot shooting cooper at Salem last year?
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Ouch.
 
Pete Wass said:
And a lot of the rest of us are just enjoying our lives . There is a big difference. You probably don't recognize that but in the end, it's only about having fun. None of us are going to ever make a dime at shooting and having been at the top of the heap once, I fond it a very hollow and empty experience. I decided having fun was way more important to me. There are no winning gunsmiths, by the way, unless they happen to be shooting. There are winning shooters. This game is about Shooters, the way I see it.

How about those OLD Auctioned Rifles that win in the ARA events often, by the way. Don't you think there may be some other things at play there other than the newest, latest action being produced? I don't think it takes much vision to see through it.

Pete
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Pete, trust me, you're powers of psychoanalysis is right up there with your gunsmithing.
 
confession

Guys,
Although I'm not K80 I may be partially responsible for post #5 & stirring the pot a bit.
You see, last year Ted came home from NY with one of Gordon's guns & was shooting great. I felt then that he'd be a force to be reckoned with this season. And he is.
So this spring when I would go to Team Hamilton's shop to visit with Gary he would tell me that this season he was going to be more focused. And to stir him & Klayton up a bit I would tell them it didn't matter. We would all be fighting for 2nd place as I felt Ted & that Eck gun would be tough to beat. I went there pretty often & each time I would drive that home.
Now the reason I did this wasn't to be malicious in any way towards anyone. It was to keep Gary focused. He tends to wander occasionally. And I want to shoot against the best at their best. I feel like it makes everyone else shoot better.
So I write this to keep the banter friendly. And for the most part it has been. And in the end we're all in it for the fun. Or at least I thought so.
Keith
 
Newsflash!!

Some of us have a very competitive nature. When poked, don't be surprised if we poke back. If I didn't have one of my matches on the same date, I would be in Maine for the State Championships too. You all feel free to attend the State Championships in Easthampton MA or Salem NY.
 
WOW Pete,

I'll bet you never thought you'd be getting 38 responces on just a Results page.

But, then again, it seems that you may have rubbed some of those Un-Calfee people the wrong way with your posting of the Who's Who of Maine gunsmiths.

Oh, wait a minute, aren't we all shooting Un-Calfee guns for the most part?

Keep up the good work.

Dave
 
Dave, that's like the Calfee shooters saying they are all shooting the "Duke of Earl". The Un-Calfee is not a generic term for a non-Calfee built gun. That official term is, I believe, "Turd". No, "The Un-Calfee" is the official name of my specific rifle, the world famous "The Un-Calfee" (insert little c with a circle around it to denote copyright protection here).

Look, no one has been rubbed the wrong way, it's all been in fun, :D mixed in with a hint of anxiety )chill( . Here we were all worrying about them 3 lug actions when all along it was them Cooper actions that we had to worry about. Who knew? :confused: It just set the RFBR world all in a tizzy, especially here in the NE. Pretty soon all them Aussies will be wanting Cooper actions sent down there so that they aren't all left behind for the World Championships next year. We'll all eventually adjust to the new order in RFBR, just give all of us a little time. ;)
 
Dave Shattuck said:
WOW Pete,

I'll bet you never thought you'd be getting 38 responces on just a Results page.

But, then again, it seems that you may have rubbed some of those Un-Calfee people the wrong way with your posting of the Who's Who of Maine gunsmiths.

Oh, wait a minute, aren't we all shooting Un-Calfee guns for the most part?

Keep up the good work.

Dave
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No Dave, nobody's rubbed wrong that I know about. As for Pete, well he's unique I guess, I always just figured at some point the meds kick in and we begin to get reports from another galaxy. He provides a humor element rarely found elsewhere?
Up there they have a couple pretty good Coopers that's great. A local guy has some success with a few, that's great. Guy laps a few barrels into shape.....more power to him.
When you get to the point where that becomes public prognostications that the Coopers now become platforms for serious benchrest work..........well that is simply factually incorrect and misleading to shooters that truly believe forums provide the majority of quality information.
Coopers are, by and large a valid starting platform however as most know rarely can you get one to match custom equipment. Review of nation wide match reports don't lie.
Friend Wass will drone on endlessly about the importance of a barrel and not realize Wilson does not make a true match barrel in any sense of the word.
There was a time when some early Coopers could be had with a Shilen or Lilja barrel and a real Jewell trigger but even those have been passed by-by the evolution of equipment.
This thread is like so many others that start with something observed at a local level with a limited number of examples to assume too much. As is often the case ......get out, shoot a few places......shoot against a few other shooters, and your knowledge base changes.
 
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