The Powers to be are missing a great opportunity to share their opinions about this subject.
Glenn
Benchrest handicap
- Thread starter JerrySharrett
- Start date
The Powers to be are missing a great opportunity to share their opinions about this subject.
Glenn
"The Powers that are",,,From my old job...that would be anybody responsible for reading whats in the suggestion box.
Glenn
Ultimate Benchrest has used a 4 class structure since it's inception seven years ago. It seems to have been effective in recruiting new shooters to our game as one can begin with a factory rifle and get a feel for things. That being said I don't think it would work for IBS & NBRSA group shooting. In the first place I doubt that there would be enough support within the membership for such. Most people don't care much for change and shooters aren't any different. This thread seems to show up every few months with several decent ideas about growing benchrest and some complaints about costs. The cost for highly competitive shooting is what it is. That is only going to get higher. If one wants to compete in a sport or activity that is cheap they should probably look somewhere else. As, I think Wilbur said, "we like what we do and we like it the way it is" or words to that affect. I am very much aware of the cost to hold even small, some would say club level, matches as I run two per month. Everything costs money, targets, food, drink, trophies etc. Nothing is free. Although we've had a very good turnout for two matches at one range, there isn't all that much left over after expenses. And we aren't even paying a target crew. There is no point in looking at lowering match fees to bring in new shooters. If one is willing to pay what it costs to acquire the tools to play this game, match fees aren't likely to deter him or her.
IMO- the answer to the situation is recruiting clubs and people who want to hold matches and who are willing to do it mainly for the love of the game. The lack of clubs holding events seems to be the holdup and where there are venues matches seem to be getting attendance. I don't know exactly how to attract these two things, but I do think it's the answer. As has been pointed out, score matches aren't that difficult to hold, but group matches are a different animal. Maybe recruitment could begin with score matches and gravitate to group. I do think a class structure would work with score matches in the two large organizations if it were tried, but again there would be some resistance to change. I don't believe teaching benchrest schools alone will bring in a large number of shooters. While it is a good thing, without participating clubs and match directors, I don't think it will change things very much.
Rick
IMO- the answer to the situation is recruiting clubs and people who want to hold matches and who are willing to do it mainly for the love of the game. The lack of clubs holding events seems to be the holdup and where there are venues matches seem to be getting attendance. I don't know exactly how to attract these two things, but I do think it's the answer. As has been pointed out, score matches aren't that difficult to hold, but group matches are a different animal. Maybe recruitment could begin with score matches and gravitate to group. I do think a class structure would work with score matches in the two large organizations if it were tried, but again there would be some resistance to change. I don't believe teaching benchrest schools alone will bring in a large number of shooters. While it is a good thing, without participating clubs and match directors, I don't think it will change things very much.
Rick
S
stump
Guest
Not this again...
Level the playing field? Jeeeze! I leave here 15 years ago,come back and this same topic? Poor dead horse!
Level the playing field? Jeeeze! I leave here 15 years ago,come back and this same topic? Poor dead horse!
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
ANNOUNCEMENT:: I hereby nominate Stump Newsome for handicrapper-in-chief.
Sump can take his new M1A and shoot down the target frames. That'll solve it!!
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Just a Slight Modification
The first match at the Isabella County Sportsmans Club will be April 22. It will be a 25 shot score match at 100 yards. We are expecting a huge turnout so you may want to bring your best sitting chair (like the one Jeff Aberegg will have there). There will be an 'after the match' meeting at the Judge's Bench. Bring your notes, lies, stories, and whatever else. They do have great fish and burgers!
Oh! And if someone shoots a perfect score they will get 'slabbed'! Details forthcoming shortly.
Oh! And I hope that all the old Harrison crowd reads this post! Bob Zimmer, Jim Guinn, and the rest of the gang are required to be there! This will be a great season of shooting at the Isabella County Sportsmans Club!
Just the messenger boy...
Matt
The first match at the Isabella County Sportsmans Club will be April 22. It will be a 25 shot score match at 100 yards. We are expecting a huge turnout so you may want to bring your best sitting chair (like the one Jeff Aberegg will have there). There will be an 'after the match' meeting at the Judge's Bench. Bring your notes, lies, stories, and whatever else. They do have great fish and burgers!
Oh! And if someone shoots a perfect score they will get 'slabbed'! Details forthcoming shortly.
Oh! And I hope that all the old Harrison crowd reads this post! Bob Zimmer, Jim Guinn, and the rest of the gang are required to be there! This will be a great season of shooting at the Isabella County Sportsmans Club!
Just the messenger boy...
Matt
S
stump
Guest
Hey old friend! They won't let me on the rimfire page anymore! As for where I been,been doin' 15 to Life,got out on 15 yrs served!
S
stump
Guest
I can do that Jerry...good to see you at Shamrock friend!
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
In an effort to bring in new shooters how about we have a combo factory and modified class that along with the LV 100? Put them on a rotation after benchrest LV 100. Anymore we, with the lower turnout we finish the 100 yard dat bu about 2:30 pm. This would still finish us on 100 day by about 3:00 pm.
It would give us a chance to sell some of our surplus/older stuff to them especially reloading stuff. On a given shoot if no interest we skip that factory/modified relay. If more interest showed we add a relay to Hv 100.
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It would give us a chance to sell some of our surplus/older stuff to them especially reloading stuff. On a given shoot if no interest we skip that factory/modified relay. If more interest showed we add a relay to Hv 100.
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Mike Bryant
Active member
Okie Shooters did that when I first started shooting benchrest. They called it prairie dog class and would have two or three shooters show up to shoot it and they would win a coffee cup with Okie Shooters and 1st place on it and maybe a second place cup. It was shot at the same time on the same targets as the group registered class with whatever you wanted to shoot. A classification system like the NRA has might not be a bad idea to give new shooters a goal to strive towards. Lou Murdica recently received his High Master card in F-Class.
I've probably spent as much time working on this one problem as anyone in the sport for the last 7 years. I've driven over 20,000 miles and attended an average of 18 registered matches for each of the last 10 years... talked with match directors, hundreds of shooters, and had numerous conversations with the leadership from both organizations.
I can't speak for the IBS, but the actual number of registered members in the NBRSA has been extremely stable for the last 3-4 years. It rose from a low around 1200 in 2011 up to its current level (around 1400) over about 2-1/2 years when we started publishing the magazine but growth (about half new shooters and half long-dormant renewals) has plateaued. With our aged demographic, about 20-25 members do pass on every year. So net that against the 200+ growth since 2011 and you have about 350-400 members who are either new or have returned to the sport from a long absence. While we are all entitled to our own opinions, we are not entitled to our own facts. The death of the sport is somewhat exaggerated.
That said, attendance at registered matches is down. I see it at most of the dozen or so ranges that I shoot at regularly. What is evident is that the same 10-16 guys show up at their local haunt all the time, and they travel in a small circuit to support their 'close-by' ranges. What we don't see is out-of-area shooters traveling much these days. The willingness to hit the road is waning.
I've never heard a complaint over the actual fees, be it $70 or the max of $100 for a weekend. I actually feel that the NBRSA ought to review the $50/day maximum allowed because some ranges (Raton in particular) have cost structures that make it very un-profitable to even hold a shoot. As far as fees, the only complaint I've ever heard about match fees was a short stint at Raton several years ago when the Cash Option wasn't optional... it was only $20 extra (not $60 like the Cactus or the East/West) but that match lost maybe a third of its traditional attendees in two years just over the policy of forcing it to be a money shoot. Making money would be the absolute last reason that anyone I know plays this game. If you want to shoot for dough, get a shotgun.
Classes. Handicaps. Divisions. The single best thing about Benchrest is going head-to-head with the world's best, even if it is your first day. You wouldn't be welcome at a pickup basketball game with the Celtics, nor would Michael Jordan be able to just play with a bunch of high-schoolers, but in Benchrest you can do exactly that. Biggest thrill of the career was following Tony at a shoot when I was brand new. One thing I would get behind is an "Out-Of-Class" class -- simply let anyone sit down at any event with whatever they bring (match director approved for safety and facility protection of course) and let them shoot beside the regular competitors. Not ranked against any other shooters, but their targets would get an official score that they could be proud of without being compared to full-on competitive rigs or having their egos bruised by being near the bottom of results page.
The number of ranges is shrinking. A few get shut down, but the biggest culprit is the number of people who are willing to work to keep a range open or put on a shoot. The single biggest enemy of Benchrest is the complacency of the shooters. Look around a match and see how many guys are willing to get off their butts for 5 minutes to go help move the target frames, and you'll see why we have a problem. The same can be said for participation at nearly every level needed to run a national organization. There is a lot of talk, but its damned hard to get someone to take decent pictures or submit an article, or -- heaven-forbid -- show up to the range on work-day just to do some wiring or plumbing or painting or even sweeping.
That said, ...
Six years ago a few guys started a brand new range in Grand Junction. A existing shooting facility, but all new range, new benches, new target frames, a new loading shed. They went from zero to now running 30-40 shooters at nearly every match with new guys joining the fun all the time. At the core of the success are a handful of guys who work hard, not just one guy begging for a little help. The whole sport could learn a lesson from Dan, Tom, Mark, and their gang.
Similarly, in the last 3 years the Yellowstone range in Billings Montana has taken off with a half dozen new local shooters, growing attendance, and a lot of local interest. Ryan is a 30/40-ish guy with fantastic support from his family. Guys his age find the sport because they have a passion for the technicalities of it and for the competition. He runs the matches and puts up with the headaches because he had to be willing to serve if he wanted events to shoot. He is a rare gem, but he shouldn't be. We each need to take it on ourselves to help out.
I'll issue a challenge to everyone involved in the sport. This season stop whining about fees or target crews or attendance or a wobbly bench and crappy loading table. Start pitching in to make you're Match Director's job a little easier. Grab a broom or a hammer or keyboard or a phone or whatever you can to do your part make the events you attend run smoother. Bring the cookies or the iced tea. Show up early, and don't leave until everything is done instead of trying to be the first guy making dust after the last shot is fired.
Having been near the center of the NBRSA for the last several years, I've got a list of tolerable ideas that might actually help grow the sport, but none of them are more important than taking care of our match directors and taking responsibility for our own events.
Rod
I can't speak for the IBS, but the actual number of registered members in the NBRSA has been extremely stable for the last 3-4 years. It rose from a low around 1200 in 2011 up to its current level (around 1400) over about 2-1/2 years when we started publishing the magazine but growth (about half new shooters and half long-dormant renewals) has plateaued. With our aged demographic, about 20-25 members do pass on every year. So net that against the 200+ growth since 2011 and you have about 350-400 members who are either new or have returned to the sport from a long absence. While we are all entitled to our own opinions, we are not entitled to our own facts. The death of the sport is somewhat exaggerated.
That said, attendance at registered matches is down. I see it at most of the dozen or so ranges that I shoot at regularly. What is evident is that the same 10-16 guys show up at their local haunt all the time, and they travel in a small circuit to support their 'close-by' ranges. What we don't see is out-of-area shooters traveling much these days. The willingness to hit the road is waning.
I've never heard a complaint over the actual fees, be it $70 or the max of $100 for a weekend. I actually feel that the NBRSA ought to review the $50/day maximum allowed because some ranges (Raton in particular) have cost structures that make it very un-profitable to even hold a shoot. As far as fees, the only complaint I've ever heard about match fees was a short stint at Raton several years ago when the Cash Option wasn't optional... it was only $20 extra (not $60 like the Cactus or the East/West) but that match lost maybe a third of its traditional attendees in two years just over the policy of forcing it to be a money shoot. Making money would be the absolute last reason that anyone I know plays this game. If you want to shoot for dough, get a shotgun.
Classes. Handicaps. Divisions. The single best thing about Benchrest is going head-to-head with the world's best, even if it is your first day. You wouldn't be welcome at a pickup basketball game with the Celtics, nor would Michael Jordan be able to just play with a bunch of high-schoolers, but in Benchrest you can do exactly that. Biggest thrill of the career was following Tony at a shoot when I was brand new. One thing I would get behind is an "Out-Of-Class" class -- simply let anyone sit down at any event with whatever they bring (match director approved for safety and facility protection of course) and let them shoot beside the regular competitors. Not ranked against any other shooters, but their targets would get an official score that they could be proud of without being compared to full-on competitive rigs or having their egos bruised by being near the bottom of results page.
The number of ranges is shrinking. A few get shut down, but the biggest culprit is the number of people who are willing to work to keep a range open or put on a shoot. The single biggest enemy of Benchrest is the complacency of the shooters. Look around a match and see how many guys are willing to get off their butts for 5 minutes to go help move the target frames, and you'll see why we have a problem. The same can be said for participation at nearly every level needed to run a national organization. There is a lot of talk, but its damned hard to get someone to take decent pictures or submit an article, or -- heaven-forbid -- show up to the range on work-day just to do some wiring or plumbing or painting or even sweeping.
That said, ...
Six years ago a few guys started a brand new range in Grand Junction. A existing shooting facility, but all new range, new benches, new target frames, a new loading shed. They went from zero to now running 30-40 shooters at nearly every match with new guys joining the fun all the time. At the core of the success are a handful of guys who work hard, not just one guy begging for a little help. The whole sport could learn a lesson from Dan, Tom, Mark, and their gang.
Similarly, in the last 3 years the Yellowstone range in Billings Montana has taken off with a half dozen new local shooters, growing attendance, and a lot of local interest. Ryan is a 30/40-ish guy with fantastic support from his family. Guys his age find the sport because they have a passion for the technicalities of it and for the competition. He runs the matches and puts up with the headaches because he had to be willing to serve if he wanted events to shoot. He is a rare gem, but he shouldn't be. We each need to take it on ourselves to help out.
I'll issue a challenge to everyone involved in the sport. This season stop whining about fees or target crews or attendance or a wobbly bench and crappy loading table. Start pitching in to make you're Match Director's job a little easier. Grab a broom or a hammer or keyboard or a phone or whatever you can to do your part make the events you attend run smoother. Bring the cookies or the iced tea. Show up early, and don't leave until everything is done instead of trying to be the first guy making dust after the last shot is fired.
Having been near the center of the NBRSA for the last several years, I've got a list of tolerable ideas that might actually help grow the sport, but none of them are more important than taking care of our match directors and taking responsibility for our own events.
Rod
Dave Coots
64 Chevy 409 10.42 129
Good job Rodney. Also what Jerry and Mike said. Allow factory class to compete at same time as Br in their own class. Some ranges are doing that now. Also, compared to travel expenses and shooting costs, range fees are a bargain. Don't believe the ranges are getting rich from hosting matches, and besides, dues paying members are not able to use the range at that time. Does not make them happy, and rightly so.
Later
Dave
Later
Dave
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jackie schmidt
New member
Rodney, that is well said. The biggest reason there are not more Registered Group Matches in certain areas of the Country is nobody in a Club, or at a Range, is willing to do the work.
When the old Hub City Rifle Club in Lafayette Louisianna was forced to move, many thought that in short time the new facility would be holding The Crawfish again, as this was historically The Gulf Coast Regions biggest Match. It never happened. The previous members who did the work got old, and nobody was willing.
Mike Guilliot does a great job running Registered Matches in Lake Charles, but they are strictly HBR and VFS. They have no interest in putting on a Group Match. He doesn't use a computer. The scores are just recorded on a per-formed page. Simple.
Many shooters who show up to shoot do not have a clue what it takes to put on a Registered Group Match. There are certain things that have to be done a certain way. Targets have to be numbered. You have to have a target crew, an official scorer, someone to run the computer and record everything, a range officer, the frames must be in acceptable condition, the moving backer system must operate flawlessly, trophys have to be bought, and the toilets have to flush.
At Tomball, I have seen 5 Registered Match Directors come and go in the past 30 years. All have done a commendable job, and all quit for the same reason. Too much work, not enough help.
Running Club Matches such as the VFS Score Matches I run at Tomball are simple in comparison. We get a reasonably good turnout, and the cost are reasonable, targets and some nice Ribbons for the winners are the only expense. The Club makes a little money, the competition is tough, and everybody has a good time.
These are limited to just a single yardage Agg, though, as the Club will not allow us to take up the Range past about 1:00 in the afternoon. But the shooters that show up like this Format, most pre-load, the atmosphere is laid back, and except for the safety rules that must be in place, there are few other rules to contend with.
When the old Hub City Rifle Club in Lafayette Louisianna was forced to move, many thought that in short time the new facility would be holding The Crawfish again, as this was historically The Gulf Coast Regions biggest Match. It never happened. The previous members who did the work got old, and nobody was willing.
Mike Guilliot does a great job running Registered Matches in Lake Charles, but they are strictly HBR and VFS. They have no interest in putting on a Group Match. He doesn't use a computer. The scores are just recorded on a per-formed page. Simple.
Many shooters who show up to shoot do not have a clue what it takes to put on a Registered Group Match. There are certain things that have to be done a certain way. Targets have to be numbered. You have to have a target crew, an official scorer, someone to run the computer and record everything, a range officer, the frames must be in acceptable condition, the moving backer system must operate flawlessly, trophys have to be bought, and the toilets have to flush.
At Tomball, I have seen 5 Registered Match Directors come and go in the past 30 years. All have done a commendable job, and all quit for the same reason. Too much work, not enough help.
Running Club Matches such as the VFS Score Matches I run at Tomball are simple in comparison. We get a reasonably good turnout, and the cost are reasonable, targets and some nice Ribbons for the winners are the only expense. The Club makes a little money, the competition is tough, and everybody has a good time.
These are limited to just a single yardage Agg, though, as the Club will not allow us to take up the Range past about 1:00 in the afternoon. But the shooters that show up like this Format, most pre-load, the atmosphere is laid back, and except for the safety rules that must be in place, there are few other rules to contend with.
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Age is a Factor
I Chose this sport 17 years ago, because I like guns and I like shooting. I will be 75 this year. many of the Competitors that were around when I joined the ranks have passed on to that Benchrest in the Sky. The ones that are still plugging away, are aged to the point where the physical requirements of the Sport are becoming increasingly difficult for some.
Lets face it. It can be a physically demanding Sport. Walking, setting flags, lifting equipment, ie, Front rests and bags,Unlimited Rifles, Bench Rotations..etc,etc,etc.
I talk to some of these guys, my age group, on a regular basis. The topic of discussions usually centers around Health issues. Those ailments that prevents or limits your ability to participate in your favorite hobbies. Its an undeniable fact that these issues cause some competitors to opt out of the Sport. I personally know a few.
I rented a golf cart, to use at a recent local registered match, to accommodate myself and a couple of senior members, who were having difficulty getting around.
The Golf Cart certainly made our attendance at the match.more convenient. They can be used for a variety of activities associated with the Sport. Like quick trips to the restroom.
This was my contribution to the Sport and to the seniors who still enjoy Benchrest. When my knees are hurting,I will sometimes grab a motorized shopping cart when I visit Wally World.
Its hell getting old.
Glenn
I Chose this sport 17 years ago, because I like guns and I like shooting. I will be 75 this year. many of the Competitors that were around when I joined the ranks have passed on to that Benchrest in the Sky. The ones that are still plugging away, are aged to the point where the physical requirements of the Sport are becoming increasingly difficult for some.
Lets face it. It can be a physically demanding Sport. Walking, setting flags, lifting equipment, ie, Front rests and bags,Unlimited Rifles, Bench Rotations..etc,etc,etc.
I talk to some of these guys, my age group, on a regular basis. The topic of discussions usually centers around Health issues. Those ailments that prevents or limits your ability to participate in your favorite hobbies. Its an undeniable fact that these issues cause some competitors to opt out of the Sport. I personally know a few.
I rented a golf cart, to use at a recent local registered match, to accommodate myself and a couple of senior members, who were having difficulty getting around.
The Golf Cart certainly made our attendance at the match.more convenient. They can be used for a variety of activities associated with the Sport. Like quick trips to the restroom.
This was my contribution to the Sport and to the seniors who still enjoy Benchrest. When my knees are hurting,I will sometimes grab a motorized shopping cart when I visit Wally World.
Its hell getting old.
Glenn
S
scott mims
Guest
I agree Glenn this sport is like a church if you can't get young people to come the church will eventually die...... sad on both cases.
BUT with technology the way it is....... hang in there a little longer you might end up being like the old tv show "the six million dollar man"........ but it will cost more than 6,000,000 dollars now..... so crap I guess only the rich will still be the only ones to compete. ?
Maybe healthcare will cover us benchresters ?
BUT with technology the way it is....... hang in there a little longer you might end up being like the old tv show "the six million dollar man"........ but it will cost more than 6,000,000 dollars now..... so crap I guess only the rich will still be the only ones to compete. ?
Maybe healthcare will cover us benchresters ?
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Which one?
Since we're on the subject. I think that the older competitors are the driving wheels of the Sport. They regularly attend matches, whether locally or nationally. They don't whine about the cost of registration fees. Most haven't won much of anything, since they've been competing.
Take away this group of competitors and you couldn't afford to run a registered match. These are the true constituents of the Sport.
Glenn
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Tell ya what, I don't want the GUVMINT in the doctoring business. No where does the US Prostitution does it say a mission of the GUVMINT to provide doctors!
I gave 6 years to "protect and defend". What has the stinking VA done for my health? Not a damned thing!
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