Benchrest handicap

mwezell said:
Serious question here and I'm not out to kick any hornet's nests...

I've never been to a Super Shoot but know the hoopla and prestige of winning is huge. But, it's unregistered and match fees are $120 for 2 days, $240 for 4 days and $120 for Unlimited. Why?


That's a lot of money for awards!
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Mike, no the Super Shoot is not currently Registered, but many have been. The Super Shoot is unique to all other precision events. At times there have been over 410 in attendsnce. 60 benches, 7 relays. The Super Shoot attracts accuracy minded shooters from all over the world. Russia, New Zeland, Australia..and more.

Yes, it does generate a lot of money, but much of it is given back to the top shooters of each target. Much is consumed by the expense of putting on the Shoot. Very, very little is profit. Not enough profit to offset the production lost.

Ive not missed a single one in a couple of decades....and God willing, I'll be there in May 2017.

Every one who is fascinated by extreme accuracy should attend at least one Firearms Industry Super Shoot.


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The Super Shoot is a different animal. I don't know what they do now as I haven't attended in years but I do remember if you shot the smallest group and placed pretty good in an agg you got your money back...trip cost included. I won a lot amount of money there once upon a time....more than the total proceeds of a local score match with considerable attendance. All I'm sayin' here is you shouldn't (can't) use the Super Shoot as an example in the context of this thread. Basically, it's a money shoot and if you don't win any money you have a pretty good time anyway.
 
Wilbur said:
The Super Shoot is a different animal. I don't know what they do now as I haven't attended in years but I do remember if you shot the smallest group and placed pretty good in an agg you got your money back...trip cost included. I won a lot amount of money there once upon a time....more than the total proceeds of a local score match with considerable attendance. All I'm sayin' here is you shouldn't (can't) use the Super Shoot as an example in the context of this thread. Basically, it's a money shoot and if you don't win any money you have a pretty good time anyway.
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Well said.

The Super Shoot is just that, The Super Shoot.

For an analogy, It's the "Indy 500" of Benchrest.
 
MikeinCO

Just reading through this thread some more... did Mike move to San Diego?

Yo... Mike (if you're out there) ... Did you make it to the LR Nats in Sacremento?

Rod
 
Amen:

FOLKS: Let me give you a little background. I started BR. in about 2001. Prior to that I had shot skeet at high level. All American, invited to join Army's Skeet team, etc, etc. One of first comments to Wilbur, SE. director at time, was why has BR. not considered classes similar to TRAP AND SKEET competition? Answer: "IT WILL NOT WORK". At that time there were at least 6 matches I could attend within 7 hours drive from my home. Now there are two (2). In spite of the attitude of hardcore BR shooters, I became one because: It was MY efforts along without having to be dependent on squad members, I enjoyed the crowd,the competition and I started out fairly well. I spent lots of money,(guns 30-40 barrels a year, 10-20k bullets), time, effort and begging for info to become a "fair" shooter. then eye problems developed and i went down hill. However, after 28 years of hardcore military, 14 years as small businessman (sporting goods including guns etc) I have not changed my position. In skeet and trap you compete at somewhat a equal level with the shooters in your class. while Nothing subs for trigger time, effort etc, skeet and trap takes away the "tech" advantages. I.E. I never had the best equipment but i beat the best with the best equipment when shooting skeet! I do not care how much effort, trigger time, barrels etc, you put into it you will not beat the best "with the best equipment, (barrels, bullets for the most part)" in BR. There is the rare occasion that us wannabe's beat the best with the best - but that is few and far between. To grow this sport we must workout some kind of classification. Maybe a start is BR master - which should include most of us to include me and Jerry because of our "experience" But because of our handicaps - age, sight, sorriness , we will not (unless pigs fly) beat, Costa, Campbell, Boyer, etc. Age may be classification, equipment may be, experience may be another. True BR is a select group. To make it bigger and develop newbies for that group is the challenge. Like Trump Gene and crew has a BIG CHALLENGE.
 
jim casey said:
FOLKS: Let me give you a little background. I started BR. in about 2001. Prior to that I had shot skeet at high level. All American, invited to join Army's Skeet team, etc, etc. One of first comments to Wilbur, SE. director at time, was why has BR. not considered classes similar to TRAP AND SKEET competition? Answer: "IT WILL NOT WORK". At that time there were at least 6 matches I could attend within 7 hours drive from my home. Now there are two (2). In spite of the attitude of hardcore BR shooters, I became one because: It was MY efforts along without having to be dependent on squad members, I enjoyed the crowd,the competition and I started out fairly well. I spent lots of money,(guns 30-40 barrels a year, 10-20k bullets), time, effort and begging for info to become a "fair" shooter. then eye problems developed and i went down hill. However, after 28 years of hardcore military, 14 years as small businessman (sporting goods including guns etc) I have not changed my position. In skeet and trap you compete at somewhat a equal level with the shooters in your class. while Nothing subs for trigger time, effort etc, skeet and trap takes away the "tech" advantages. I.E. I never had the best equipment but i beat the best with the best equipment when shooting skeet! I do not care how much effort, trigger time, barrels etc, you put into it you will not beat the best "with the best equipment, (barrels, bullets for the most part)" in BR. There is the rare occasion that us wannabe's beat the best with the best - but that is few and far between. To grow this sport we must workout some kind of classification. Maybe a start is BR master - which should include most of us to include me and Jerry because of our "experience" But because of our handicaps - age, sight, sorriness , we will not (unless pigs fly) beat, Costa, Campbell, Boyer, etc. Age may be classification, equipment may be, experience may be another. True BR is a select group. To make it bigger and develop newbies for that group is the challenge. Like Trump Gene and crew has a BIG CHALLENGE.
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Jim, all I can say is, come up with something that is workable.
I have seen experinced shooters go from being at the top of of the pack to the middle because their one good barrel, or that great lot of bullets got used up.

I have seen novice shooters score a great barrel and some great billets right out of the shoot and win. But then, that barrel and bullets get used up, and they are suddenly shooting "in the threes". I have seen more than one quit when that happen.

This game is extremely equipment oriented. It always has been. There is no solution to that.
 
What brought you?

I can't help but think that with all the opinions about how to attract new members, there is probably a workable solution somewhere in the haystack. The problem is identifying it and implementing it.

Through the years,I have sat next to a bunch of great people, with ear phones on, at Benchrtest matches. Had a lot of fun. Developed friendships that still exist today. Fun and Friendships are the things that make up a great Hobby. I might have asked a hand full of the people, that I’ve met, “WHAT BROUGHT YOU TO THIS SPORT/ HOBBY?”. Everybody has an answer to this question.

The same thing(s) that brought you to the door, could possibly help in efforts to recruit new members. True or False? Most of the people listed in the “Hall Of Fame" started out handicapped. Their stories, about their beginnings, would be valuable assets in developing ideas about how to move the Sport forward. Just my thoughts.



Glenn
 
jackie schmidt said:
Jim, all I can say is, come up with something that is workable.

I have seen novice shooters score a great barrel and some great billets right out of the shoot and win. But then, that barrel and bullets get used up, and they are suddenly shooting "in the threes". I have seen more than one quit when that happen.

This game is extremely equipment oriented. It always has been. There is no solution to that.
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Have you noticed, most every one started out with a more forgiving barrel than they have now? What does that say??

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Chism G said:
I can't help but think that with all the opinions about how to attract new members, there is probably a workable solution somewhere in the haystack. The problem is identifying it and implementing it.

Through the years,I have sat next to a bunch of great people, with ear phones on, at Benchrtest matches. Had a lot of fun. Developed friendships that still exist today. Fun and Friendships are the things that make up a great Hobby. I might have asked a hand full of the people, that I’ve met, “WHAT BROUGHT YOU TO THIS SPORT/ HOBBY?”. Everybody has an answer to this question.

The same thing(s) that brought you to the door, could possibly help in efforts to recruit new members. True or False? Most of the people listed in the “Hall Of Fame" started out handicapped. Their stories, about their beginnings, would be valuable assets in developing ideas about how to move the Sport forward. Just my thoughts.



Glenn
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Good post, Glenn. :D
 
I don't think a handicap system will significantly increase the number of participants in benchrest. I know of clubs that have had monthly, non-registered BR matches (that include factory-class) for years and the participation in factory class is pretty small. It's hard for me to believe that registered matches would have much better success (in terms of attracting many shooters) with a handicap system than club matches have had with such a system -- e.g., factory class.

As for ideas for increasing the number of shooters to short-range BR, I doubt that anything within reason is going to work. Actually, I wonder why folks care if short-range BR "grows." Maybe some care because they think more shooters will mean more close-by matches to attend. Well, that might be nice, but other things compete for our time and money also. I can probably find a club match[SUP]1[/SUP] within a three hour drive most weekends of most months -- but, that's more shooting than I can handle. So, again, why do we care whether the number of shooters increase?

The problem is that benchrest shooting has a very limited, long-term appeal to most shooters. There's not enough action, it's pretty time consuming, and it doesn't make good water-fountain talk at work. Many of us have seen plenty of shooters jump in with both feet (i.e., they buy custom guns and all the paraphernalia) and shoot a few matches, then poof -- you never see them again. But, the good news is that (I suspect) as long as there are old men with rifles there will be some form of benchrest shooting; thus, I doubt that the game is going to die. Those interested in the game will find the matches -- we don't need to look for them.


______________
[SUP]1[/SUP] BTW, I don't understand why many folks seem to be unwilling to shoot close-by, non-registered matches.
 
As usual:

READERS DO NOT GET MY INTENT: I am not crying about competition! I love it: but in BR as in skeet I shoot against myself not others. I am happy with where I am with my conditions and efforts when shooting BR. I have had good barrels and bullets. I used to put lots more effort, trigger time etc, than now AND I USUAL REAP WHAT I SOW. However, I have learned thru had knocks great bullets and competitive barrels are hard to come by and bullets are most important. Unless you control both you are the mercy of who provides them. That is not true in other shooting sports. Ask Jerry he has knowledge of skeet, Trap, and Probably SportingClays - which all have classes. BR at the highest level is very equipment centered. If you do not have the best barrels, system and bullets you will not be at the top I DO NOT CARE HOW WELL YOU READ FLAGS as others can read them too - that is not to say on the rare event you cannot win but you will not be - match after match - in the top 10% without first class equipment. Growing any shooting sport is difficult. Skeet is also on downhill side. lots of things contribute to the decline of the shooting sports but lack of efforts to expand the new shooter base is a major downfall. DO NOT CLOSE YOUR MINDS TO SOME FORM OF CLASSES. We will always have guys like me and Jerry who are hooked on the process of shooting "small aggs" but we gotta get other new blood involved or we will see less and less events we can attend. My Two cents worth.
 
The problem is that benchrest shooting has a very limited, long-term appeal to most shooters. There's not enough action, it's pretty time consuming, and it doesn't make good water-fountain talk at work. Many of us have seen plenty of shooters jump in with both feet (i.e., they buy custom guns and all the paraphernalia) and shoot a few matches, then poof -- you never see them again. But, the good news is that (I suspect) as long as there are old men with rifles there will be some form of benchrest shooting; thus, I doubt that the game is going to die. Those interested in the game will find the matches -- we don't need to look for them.
Posted by hunter-post #175

I suspect that "poof you never see em again" was because they finally realized thed never come close to winning. Then they get tired of driving 100+ mi to a match, paying $20 or more bucks to shoot and then spend the better part of a day shooting a couple targets.

I agree with the shooter just above, I believe, who shoots against himself but that gets old pretty quick.

Take coming Thurs I can drive 120 mi, one way, pay $20 and shoot to targets but the good news is it only takes about 7 hours inc driving time. Im having trouble convincing myself to do it for the same reason perhaps as the fellow in the opening para..
 
Hunter said:
I don't think a handicap system will significantly increase the number of participants


As for ideas for increasing the number of shooters to short-range BR, I doubt that anything within reason is going to work. Actually, I wonder why folks care if short-range BR "grows." Maybe some care because they think more shooters will mean more close-by matches to attend. Well, that might be nice, but other things compete for our time and money also. I can probably find a club match[SUP]1[/SUP] within a three hour drive most weekends of most months -- but, that's more shooting than I can handle. So, again, why do we care whether the number of shooters increase?


____BTW, I don't understand why many folks seem to be unwilling to shoot close-by, non-registered matches.
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Bill, centerfire benchrest is not an action game. If you expect that go to IDPA or Cowboy 3-gun. we are kind-of like watching rocks melt and that is why ESPN doesn't give us much coverage.

BUT, a handicapping system of some design might bring in more shooters hence more ranges. In the last 20 years the Southeast Region alone has lost 12 ranges to host these events. Why? Lack of shooters. The first benchrest match I ever shot in, Unaka Gun Club, we had 64 shooters. The 2016 Spring match at Unaka we had 13.

No shooters, no ranges.

No local shooters participating in unregistered local marches? This IS an expensive sport.

So>>


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langenc said:
Jerry said 1/2 of it:
No shooters, no ranges. the other half no ranges, no shooters.
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^^^+1^^^
The only thing more important to this sport than the shooters..is the ranges. There are plenty of shooters. They just aren't shooting BR. We are competing for shooters and for range time at any public club... and losing. How are we going to make THAT better?
 
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The other side of the story is what to do if there are too many shooters. We were arguing once upon a time about that very thing in the Southeast region...then gas prices went up and the matter vanished....poof, it went! Yep...POOF!
 
Wilbur said:
The other side of the story is what to do if there are too many shooters. We were arguing once upon a time about that very thing in the Southeast region...then gas prices went up and the matter vanished....poof, it went! Yep...POOF!
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The only time I remember where there were ALMOST too many shooters was at the 2006 Super shoot where they were approaching an 8th relay. with 7 relays almost full an additional relay would have run out of daylight. 7 relays X 60 benches = The signed up shooters was about 412 IIRC.


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Almost every club in the region was struggling with attendance on the high end for half a season. Gas prices went up and that was that.
 
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