Being Raked Over The Coals Over On 6BR Site

Mike H said:
So far, you are ALL in 100% AGREEMENT that they work EXACTLY the same way. Bill Calfee is right, you guys are wrong.
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I think this is really funny Mike. You admit you have zero experience with a centerfire using a tuner yet you state emphatically that there is no difference in centerfire and rimfire application and that most everyone here is wrong and B. Calfee is right (about what exactly?).
 
Mike

I have designed my own Tuners, every one of my Bag Guns employs one of these Tuners, and I have won a few matches using my Tuner., That leaves me to believe that my Tuner does work.
Where is the arguement??.....jackie
 
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Why all the hot arguments just do what you are comfortable with.Why slag someone for doing something different.If different proves better there will be a stampede to get the new miracle.All theory means is idea.... let the scorer be the judge.This is just turning into a nit picking bitching session.Wish it would stop snowing there so you could all get out & make some holes in paper.
Good luck & good shooting Jim:confused::confused:
 
j mckinnie said:
Why all the hot arguments just do what you are comfortable with.Why slag someone for doing something different.If different proves better there will be a stampede to get the new miracle.All theory means is idea.... let the scorer be the judge.This is just turning into a nit picking bitching session.Wish it would stop snowing there so you could all get out & make some holes in paper.
Good luck & good shooting Jim:confused::confused:
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Jim,

The answer to your "Why" is lies in the difference between progression of these kind of ideas now vs. prior to internet forums. Before the internet, It would involve the idea, one guy or a couple of guys with pencils and paper, telephones, and pickup trucks who would work either independently or in a few small groups. The rest would listen, theorize, gab among themselves, and maybe climb on board once the thing was well in motion. Jump to the present, and the entire process gets dumped into one big vat, everyone from the couple of guys (doers) to those who would have otherwise never even heard of the thing (and will never even fire a shot in competition or from a competitive rifle), and a whole bunch that fall somewhere in between just hop in and add their two cents worth (and then some).

Like a lot of things, these forums are both wonderful and terrible at any given moment. Does the idea develop any better or faster????..........probably. The process clearly uses up a lot of energy and leaves a bunch of casualties, but the sheer volume of activity and resources simply has to yield something useful in the end........I think......................

-Dave-:)
 
Mckinnie

I do not wish to sound like a broken record, (ok, that happenned long time ago), but my whole "arguement" in this tuner thing was not based around disallowing ideas and opinions.. My whole "arguement" is based on not letting shooters, (or therorist), come on this Forum and make bold statements of fact, when, nothing as of yet had been proven about their concept, or idea. Especially when that shooter presents his idea with no more proof than figures on a piece of paper. Or presents data from another discipline that possibly has no relation to 100-200 yard Benchrest.
The reason for this is simple. Shooters look to this Forum to garner usefull, and truthful, information concerning Short Range Benchrest. This game is expensive. If a shooter is willing to spend his hard earned money based partly on what he gets from this Forum, then it is our responsibility to insure that the information is valid. If it is still conjecture, say so, and let it be discussed in that light.
On this Forum, we use the time tested method of proving things by going to the range, testing ideas, trying to see if there is something worth pursuing. If it shows promise, we then place it in what we consider the ultimate test bed, The Competitive Arena. To Benchrest Shooters, that is where the true worth of any idea will either shine forth, or turn out to be a burned out cinder.
There seems to be quite a few out there in ciber land who believe that this is a flawed method, perhaps influenced by a shooters other abilities. We recognize that. But at least we can present something more than just 'I believe", or "I think" to some one.

Sooner or later, the bullets have to go through the target, preferrably, one on top another. After all, that is the end product of all of this......jackie
 
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You have got me wrong .I'm not taking sides.Tuners are new & I'm sitting on the fence where they are concerned.I don't see any point in being abusive about it,this thread started as look there slagging me.My point is why slag anyone.My feeling are that there will end up being load tuners & barrel weight adjusters.Then it will be an argument over which is best,the one that is comfortable for the given shooter.Why should discussion turn to personal attacks.Hope I'm not digging a hole here chill out guys.
good luck make it fun Jim
 
Lynn,
Just out of curiosity, how did you learn of Bill's center fire Benchrest experience? Did you read of it on this board, or in his articles? Match reports are sent to participants or possibly published in places that are not easily searched for that sort of information, and lists of records or winners would be of little use in researching who made up the rest of the field. I guess my point is that you seem to find some fault in our not knowing something that is not readily available information. (unless I missed reading an article) How did you find out? If it was in a phone conversation with Bill, you must understand that this is not a resource that has been made available to most of us. ‘Nothing wrong with that...a fellow has to have some time to get things done, but if that is the case just how would WE know? BTW, I don't see anyone discounting your 1,000 yd. tuner experience or Bill's in rimfire, just pointing out that it has yet of be replicated in a 10.5# PPC, and that statments about what will work, for such a rifle, need to be be demonstrated to be considered proven. Is that so bad? Another thing, I think that your method of arriving at the correct tuner weight shows real talent for problem solving, and appreciate your sharing it.
 
Boyd Allen

Boyd as always good to hear from you.You seem like a guy who can remain calm while reading a post and put forth some decent questions.
I like the other posters who stated Bill Calfee's placing at the super shoot read it in a very pro-benchrest article in a very popular accuracy magazine.
I guess when your as hated for your ideas as Bill Calfee seems to be on this forum the guru's don't actually read stuff written about you as they are too busy being critical of your predictions and theories.
I've got a question for you too ponder.I don't want an answer to it.
Bill Calfee has been building some of the finest rifles on planet earth for quite some time.He has placed higher at the super shoot than most people who visit this website so I'm just guessing about this but he probaly knows what an aggregate is.Now why in the heck do you think a world renowned rimfire gunsmith who has shot and worked on more tuner equipped guns than everybody on these forums combined would post that will work successfully on a centerfire benchrest gun?
I already know the answer but I don't want to be misunderstood misquoted or derogatory in any way.
Lynn
 
Lynn said:
I guess when your as hated for your ideas as Bill Calfee seems to be on this forum
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Lynn, You really need to step back and think about what you post. Where do you get this idea of hatred for Bill Calfee? That's pretty strong language where I come from. Just because people don't worship the ground he walks on and question him you see that as hatred. Sorry Lynn, but most of us here aren't part of the cult and we won't drink the kool-aid.
 
"Friend Lynn"
I seriously doubt that Bill is hated by anyone...or even personally disliked for that matter. Thanks for the "where did you find out" answer. I guess I missed that one, and if, as you implied, he has built a Sporter (10.5# PPC) that worked with one of his muzzle stopping tuners. I am sure that those who did their best to follow his lead, and invested hundreds of dollars doing so, would have liked to have more light shed on the subject of just how it was done, since all of those that I have read about or spoken with ( save possibly one) have not been able to get that sort of setup to shoot.
Boyd
 
Joel Pendergraft

Joel if you re-read what you quoted from me you will see I said "Hated for your Ideas" as Bill Calfee "Seems to be".
I never said they hated Bill Calfee I said "hated for your ideas"
If you go back and read through the posts that Wilbur wasn't asked to delete you will see Bill's ideas are not very well accepted.I fully realise that you yourself have built a tuner as you sent me a photo of it.I also realise through the phone calls and e-mails I have received that there are good people out there following the tuner debate very closely as am I.If you read all of the tuner posts you will never see me say a bad thing about Bill Calfee's ideas.I will however call those who are very negative not on his ideas but him in general.We don't need the bullying that thwarts good people from posting.Ask yourself how many times you see a post by Tony Boyer here? Yes he goes online.
I don't see the need for people such as yourself,Mike Marcelli or several others to keep referring to "The Kool-Aid".I guess if we don't follow certain posters train of thought we are all Lemmings and suicidal Kool-Aid drinkers or worshippers?
If I followed Jackie that would make me a model citizen and a true benchrest shooter right? Would I also understand what an Agg is or would I still be branded as a "Keyboard shooter"
You guys Joel not included can sure hand it out but you seem highly offended when it gets put back in your court.
Joel I like your willingness to experiment and your free exchange of knowledge but I can't see were calling me a Kool-Aid drinker is any help.I guess I can now go over to 6mmbr and start a post about how many posters here call Me a Kool-Aid drinker or worshipper or keyboard shooter all very derogatory words.Again I didn't see anyone asking the centerfire shooters to tame it down when they were piling it on,maybe I missed that post?
Lynn
 
My centerfire friends:

My centerfire friends:

Man, I've been away from the forum for a few days....I saw this thread....

My friends, I ain't no shooter....never have been...

At the Super Shoot in 1977 I was shooting a 6x47x35....the PPC had not been adopted yet......

Everyone has their excuse....here's mine....Going into the last 200 yard, Light Varmint target I needed a .707" to win the LV grand outright. I was 4th at the LV, 100 yard stage.

I had my first four shots in about .350"......but, I outfoxed myself...I fired two sighters, both went together....had a hard left to right wind...but, old Bill Calfee just couldn't believe what those two sighters were trying to tell me.

So I made the decision that I was smarter than those two sighters and held my original hold......that shot drifted out to a .909".....all I needed was a .707"

I would up 4th in the Light Varmint Grand.....

I started gun making as a centerfire benchrester....did this for several years.
Wrote the first published, conclusive testing, of the 6PPC against the 6X47..

I was not a good centerfire benchrest gun maker....back then I didn't understand the need to do a thorough bore evaluation before chambering and crowning by barrels, which meant when if I produced a winner, I was blind lucky.

I am not, nor was I ever, a very good shooter, nor have ever claimed to be.

My centerfire friends: A muzzle device (tuner) of the proper weight, and, properly placed, ahead of the muzzle, will "stop the muzzle" oscillations. Thereafter, no further adjustment of the device, (tuner) is necessary.

Your friend, Bill Calfee
 
Ask yourself how many times you see a post by Tony Boyer here? Yes he goes online.
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Tony tells it a little differently. He says that he has never been online. Doesn't even own a computer now.
 
Okay, I give up. Just what is the "proper weight and proper position" for the modern day short range BR rifle? I think those are the answers everyone here wants to know. A well described specific formula or method will do. They will give this an honest test if you give specific answers good enough to base a proper experiment on instead of general statements. If your claims are valid, you will be acknowledged for them here. To my knowledge so far, the few well known accomplished BR shooters that have attempted to duplicate this haven't been able to prove anything. This may have been because of incomplete, improper, or mis-interpreted implementation of your design. Perhaps a translater could be employed so that we have a clear concise understanding of what you are telling us. I don't believe there is an issue with you personnally or your achievements but we need to verify things for ourselves and prove it in competition before it will be accepted by the masses on this board. Just a suggestion if wish to influence this crowd.
 
Mickey Coleman

Mickey if he doesn't go online or own a computor why do I have his e-mail address?
Lynn
 
Acknowledgements

Lynn,

I don't know of any single person in the centerfire arena that has what I will call a "cult like" following similar to Mr. Calfee. Bill is certainly highly respected in the rimfire arena and he knows how to build winning rimfire rifles probably not equalled by a handful of people. Bill's dedication to his work and love can't be equalled by anyone I know of. There is no one person in the centerfire arena that has such a reputation. There are many great rifle builders and now me have Beggs, Murdica, Schmidt, and others that do a lot of experimenting and testing new equipment and ideas and then share their findings with the rest of us that do not have the time or resources to do alot ourselves. I don't see any of these guys as doing this as self serving. They are benchrest shooters that love the game and want to have a part in advancement of our sport and equipment, however eventhough we respect what these leaders tell us we do not take it as absolute and have to make our own decisions whether we want to pusue one of their recomendations or not. No different with Mr. Calfee as I see it. Many have tried earnestly to to follow his idea and I just have to believe someone would have hit on it by now if it were going to work the same for a 6PPC as a .22 rimfire. There is not some mysterious science here that totally ignores established and proven science. I don't think any of us are spending all this time, energy and resources to prove Bill Calfee wrong. We want this to work, just think we could preload for an match if we wanted to prep that much brass. I think I have already said too much and this thread is too long so this will be my last comments. If it can be done we will eventually do it.
 
Lynn said:
Mickey if he doesn't go online or own a computor why do I have his e-mail address?
Lynn
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Faye did get online over 2 years ago but not Tony. They don't own a computer now. Before I posted what I did I called Faye to verify what Tony had told me when he was at my home last. You made an assumption based on the fact that Faye had an e-mail address at one time. Tony never, according to Faye, ever got online. I never remember Faye posting anything online.
 
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