base to ogive tolerance when sorting???

M

mike in co

Guest
for those that do such things...where do you draw the line ?
i just measures a box and got the following:
0.797/+ 2
0.796 13
0.795 27
0.794 49
0.793/- 7
yes it does not add up to 100..i made some dummy rounds.


the numbers are -.0002/+.0007

so combine 5 and 4...or shoot in individual lots or ????

thanks
mike in co
 
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Mike in Co
+1 on the individual lots.You already dd the work so no sense in mixing it all back up.
Lynn a Waterboy
 
July 2010

IS IT WORTH WHILE TO SORT BULLETS?

Palma Rifle 308 win.
Measured base to ogive with a barrel stub cut with the chamber reamer.
Measured the loaded round from bottom of case to ogive with same stub.

Notice that the seating die reduces the case/ogive as compared to the base/ogive!


Group 01 -----
---- B/OGIVE --- CASE/OGIVE --- MV
--- +0.000 ------- +0.000 ------------ 3020 -------- Bullet used to zero tools.
--- +0.000 ------- +0.002 ------------ 3025
--- +0.000 ------- +0.002 ------------ 3006
--- +0.006 ------- +0.004 ------------ 3020
--- +0.006 ------- +0.002 ------------ 3017
--- +0.006 ------- +0.003 ------------ 3020
--- +0.013 ------- +0.005 ------------ 3013
--- +0.013 ------- +0.004 ------------ 3014
--- +0.021 ------- +0.005 ------------ 3004
--- +0.016 ------- +0.003 ------------ 3014 ------ ES 21 SD 06

Group 02 -----
--- B/OGIVE --- CASE/OGIVE --- MV
--- +0.000 ------- +0.003 ------------ 3024
--- +0.000 ------- +0.002 ------------ 3009
--- +0.007 ------- +0.004 ------------ 3018
--- +0.007 ------- +0.005 ------------ 3020
--- +0.014 ------- +0.006 ------------ 3019
--- +0.013 ------- +0.004 ------------ 3017
--- +0.013 ------- +0.005 ------------ 3025
--- +0.013 ------- +0.004 ------------ 3016
--- +0.016 ------- +0.005 ------------ 3022
--- +0.014 ------- +0.003 ------------ 3016
--- +0.016 ------- +0.006 ------------ 3017 ------ ES 16 SD 04

Group 03 ---- Different lot of bullets
--- B/OGIVE --- CASE/OGIVE --- MV
--- +0.011 ------- +0.004 ------------ 3018
--- +0.028 ------- +0.003 ------------ 3004
--- +0.028 ------- +0.003 ------------ 3005
--- +0.012 ------- +0.005 ------------ 3015
--- +0.011 ------- +0.004 ------------ 3003
--- +0.028 ------- +0.006 ------------ 3015
--- +0.029 ------- +0.005 ------------ 3009
--- +0.011 ------- +0.006 ------------ 3017
--- +0.028 ------- +0.005 ------------ 3017
--- +0.014 ------- +0.003 ------------ 3010 ------ ES 15 --- SD 05
 
you are gonna have to explain the relivance of the data.....all one shot data ??
why not shoot some sorted that was the same for a baseline ??
was the powder plus or minus .05?
were the cases weight sorted > to what deviation ?
(besides..everyone know a palma rifle aint no real benchrest gun........i own 5 or 6 308's encluding a parker hale plama trainer)
thanks
mike in co
 
to show you how things change ...box to box...in the same lot....after three boxes, the 0.793 count is now over 40...mostly from the third box.and the 795 group has slowed considerably.
two more boxes to go....ohh and i had to add 0.792and lower as the 793's were growing in numbers.
mike in co

mike in co said:
for those that do such things...where do you draw the line ?
i just measures a box and got the following:
0.797/+ 2
0.796 13
0.795 27
0.794 49
0.793/- 7
yes it does not add up to 100..i made some dummy rounds.


the numbers are -.0000/+.0005

so combine 5 and 4...or shoot in individual lots or ????

thanks
mike in co
Click to expand...
 
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I believe there is alot said in Jerryhm's data.
Possibly overlooked is ogive radius variance invalidating his data, and yours Mike.

You might notice that his seating depths were all over the place.
Now regardless of variance in bearing/base, the seating should have been the same. He's using an excellent tool for his measurement (the gizzy). A causual factor for the seating variance is the different seating stem(w/resp to the gizzy). Assuming the stem is fine, that leaves only ogive radius as the root cause of his seating variance.
And this then could have affected his base to ogive measurements as well.

I think it's a good example of why each part of the bullet must be qualified seperate from each other part. Otherwise, you are really chasing an abstract as though significant, without actually knowing so.
When you measure 'base to bearing' what do you THINK you're measuring? The base? Or the bearing? Which matters how much? And have you qualified the nose datum from which it's all based?
Now you want a tolerance on this abstract.....Right.....
 
Mike in co
I only posted a small part of the test data. I believe that sorting in most cases is a waste of time, having sorted and shot thousands of them, but once in while I find a bad bullet when sorting. Were the cases sorted -YES. Was the powder within .05 - NO it was weigh to +- one kernel.

Who says a palma rifle is not a bench rest rifle? All you have to do is add a scope and a little block on the bottom and you got a 16# heavy gun for 1000 yard bench rest matches.

Mikecr.
That data was part of a test I did for some one on their sorted bullets. I have asked the same question many times (what are you really measuring).
I seat the bullet way short of the lands and a couple of thousands variations in seating don't matter.
 
jerryhm said:
Mikecr.
That data was part of a test I did for some one on their sorted bullets. I have asked the same question many times (what are you really measuring).
I seat the bullet way short of the lands and a couple of thousands variations in seating don't matter.
Click to expand...

Hey Champ.
If those were sorted bullets tell your friend his caliper needs a new battery.
As for the rest of you guys don't give him any ideas about sorting bullets.He's hard enough to beat with out of the box bullets.
Lynn aka Waterboy
 
Hey Lynn,
It's your fault that I came back to this forum, may not stay long, I get better responses if they all think I only shoot palma.
Why not post the results of the last 1K BR match, I did use a different type bullet for each target, yea out of the box. NO SORTING!
 
Hey Champ here are the results and they are also posted below.

Sloughhouse Shooters NBRSA 1,000 Yard Match # 8
Lightgun

Single Tgt Group
1st Stu Harvey 4.574
2nd Bruce Duncan 5.230
3rd Darryl Kightlinger 6.144

3 Tgt Group Agg
1st Stu Harvey 6.899
2nd Bruce Duncan 9.064
3rd John Craford 9.484

Single Tgt Score
1st Stu Harvey 49-2X
2nd John Crawford 47-0X
3rd Bill Hubina 47-0X

3 Tgt Score Agg
1st Bruce Duncan 132-0X
2nd Stu Harvey 131-2X
3rd John Crawford 128-0X

Heavygun

Single Tgt Group
1st Jerry Tierney 10.421
2nd Lynn Dragoman 10.583
3rd Jerry Tierney 11.043

3 Tgt Group Agg
1st Jerry Tierney 11.057
2nd Lynn Dragoman 15.521
3rd John Crawford 19.189

Single Tgt Score
1st Lynn Dragoman 91-1X
2nd John Crawford 91-1X
3rd Tom Price 91-0X

3 Tgt Score Agg
1st Jerry Tierney 267-2X
2nd Tom Price 237-2X
3rd Gary Gagliano 230-0X

Two Gun Totals
6 Tgt Group Agg
1st Jerry Tierney 12.477
2nd John Crawford 14.336
3rd Stu Harvey 16.104

6 Tgt Score Agg
1st Jerry Tierney 380-2X
2nd Stu Harvey 357-2X
3rd Tom Price 353-2X

Congratulations To All The Winners
Lynn

P.S. I think You should stick around.
 
it was suppose to be humor.......heck one of my br rifles is 308win br.
mike in co
jerryhm said:
Mike in co
I only posted a small part of the test data. I believe that sorting in most cases is a waste of time, having sorted and shot thousands of them, but once in while I find a bad bullet when sorting. Were the cases sorted -YES. Was the powder within .05 - NO it was weigh to +- one kernel.

Who says a palma rifle is not a bench rest rifle? All you have to do is add a scope and a little block on the bottom and you got a 16# heavy gun for 1000 yard bench rest matches.

Mikecr.
That data was part of a test I did for some one on their sorted bullets. I have asked the same question many times (what are you really measuring).
I seat the bullet way short of the lands and a couple of thousands variations in seating don't matter.
Click to expand...
 
:rolleyes:

:confused:

:eek:

Paraphrasing: "I won a match with bullets that were not sorted, therefore I conclude that bullet sorting does not matter."

Are you people for real?

I have sorted bullet and shown irrefutably the opposite. And, bullet charts agree with my findings. And, ballisticians the world around also think bullet shape affects performance.

And I won a match with sorted bullets once...

I also shot a 10" group with unsorted bullets once. Even a few that were bigger...

I think the statements in posts above speak volumes for anyone who cares to do their own 'real' testing. If you can't see the results of bullet sorting on paper with your setup, then perhaps your setup needs some work.
 
RBD said:
As I understand it, the concept of ogive has relevence only in relation to the throat of the barrel. Jerry's measuring exactly that point on the bullet that has contact with the lands
Click to expand...
I'm not suggesting anything wrong with Jerry's tools or approach. I'm merely observing data before us(as you should) that clearly demonstrates ogive radius variance.
This is where ogive radius can affect your entire basis of measurement (the datum).

RBD said:
What he's measuring is--exactly--ogive radius variance, if I understand correctly
Click to expand...
Not exactly. Included in the mix is base length and base angle variance.
But the flag on OgvRadius falls with the variance in seating depth. This is independent of base length, base angle, and bearing length variances. Here it comes down simply to deviation between 2 datums: The seating stem datum, and his gizzy datum. If ogive radius was consistent, all the seating depths would have measured consistent.

Bob Green sells a tool to compare ogive radius of your bullets. It works just like jerry's measurements in that 2 datums are compared(difference between two different contact points on a nose).
Before valid testing of Base-Ogv variance can be accomplished, each ogive radius(datum) would need to be qualified, and base variances would have to be seperated from bearing variances. Afterall, they are completely different animals with completely different affects.

And I agree with Jerry, that it's all a complete waste of time.
 
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mikecr said:
And I agree with Jerry, that it's all a complete waste of time.
Click to expand...

You guys come to a Benchrest forum, offer data like that above, and then say bullet sorting does not matter?

Palma rifle, 308 w/168gn Berger VLD let's say...

21fps of TWO SHOT, SORTED IDENTICAL ROUND, ES...
Shot from a PERFECT gun,
in Perfect, no wind situation,
perfect rest and bags,
perfect bullets,
perfect primers
perfect sight picture and aim within .000"
perfect barrel, scope, scope mounts, recoil control, ignition timing, whatever...

The vertical caused on that bullet by your ES ALONE causes a group to be bigger than the top shooters at the "small shooting" benchrest clubs AGG for a YEAR! In other words, all things in your setup being perfect, excepting that ES, they'd STILL beat ya.

There's more errors to find...

ps. And I was figuring that bullet at 2800fps to 2821 (will that 308 get it there? accurately?) Even at 2900, 21fps is worth well over 5"
 
Well I for one would be interested in what BASE to OgV measurements mean exactly.
How would they matter, and what is your basis?
Stuff like that..

This is what thread starter wants to know, so he can determine a tolerance.
My contention is that single lump sum comparisons are utterly meaningless.
So 4Mesh, how bout putting aside the pissin & moanin, and provide a logical argument one way or another...If you can...
 
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4Mesh
I think everyone is misreading what Jerry has posted.
At the match I posted the results for Jerry was shooting experimental Berger bullets for Berger to see how they would do in match conditions.
I don't remember all of the actual weights but he shot three different weights of bullets from the same gun.Don't quote me but I believe it was a 280 or 284 but whatever it was it was 7mm.
We checked his targets and all of his group size was horizontal not vertical.In general terms his targets were 3 times wider than they were tall.
The conditions were absolutely horrible as the winds out here switch back and forth they never blow in a steady condition.On average we get 2 good matches per year and one great match every 5-7 years.
I don't want you thinking I am saying nobody else shoots in the wind its just that we get more than our share of switchy winds.
Jerry and I both shot on relay 2 and it was by far the worst relay for conditions.I shot 187 BIB's in a 300 WSM and 13.5 twist Bartlein barrel with a bc number around 0.528.
My rifle was on its 3rd outing and all I was doing was prepping brass for the october Nationals.I shot it as fast as I could cycle it without ever looking through the scope during the run.It shot 10.5 13.9 and 21.9 inches.My vertical was around 5 inches on all 3 targets and it never took more than 20 seconds to fire my string of shots.It was real windy.Jerry did all of his shooting with a lightgun.
I think what he is telling us is that in bad conditions perfect bullets don't matter as much s reading the wind correctly
and believe me when I tell you he reads it better than anyone else out here.
He is extremely consistent and out here in the switchy winds that seems to work for him very well.
In dead calm conditions even I shoot well.
Lynn aka Waterboy
 
Do you guys never test in good conditions? Mornings or evenings perhaps? Or, test with alternating shot ammo prepared to find a specific problem?

Even a 7mm 180 with 21f of es is a significant amount of group error. If you do not believe ES creates bigger groups, we can stop now.

If you seriously think someone can; in switching, bad conditions; "wind-read" their way into a smaller group than another shooter who shoots fast, again, we can just stop now. Puhhh-leeeezzz... I mighta been born at night, but it wasn't last night.

FYI, it is quite common for vertical to lessen as wind increases. Having seen gazillions of targets, this is not something new. I've shot a few myself.

I know you have said before about the times your range is open for practice and that its not shooter friendly for testing. It must be SOME time.

Mikecr,
In the immortal words of Charles (from another thread recently), his credo is "Don't Mislead". In other words, it's not someones job here to beat people over the head with answers when they are too lazy to find them for themselves. Just telling them they are there is more help than they are providing on their own. Just don't tell em to go chase their tails. Well, if you have not yet figured out there are bullet measurements that matter, and B-O is one of em (even if indirectly), well... I don't know what to say. Keep looking... I find it hard t believe that you write as if you have a firm grasp on the bullet geometry, but do not see how to relate various measurements into usable info.
 
Mike
You want all of your bullets as ballisticaly uniform as is possible.If your extreme spread was zero the vertical seen at the target would be the ballistic variation between bullets plus some dispersion from the wind.
By measuring each bullet in several places we are trying to pick out the ones that want to fly to the same point on the target with the least amount of ballistic variation and hopefully not get all the vertical we see.
In my opinion what Jerry was trying to say is that would only work in matches shot in good conditions and not windy matches were your horizontal is greater than your vertical.I could be all wrong and hopefully he will post back?
Lynn aka Waterboy
 
4Mesh
I could have shot 1,000 yard practice last sunday but due to my truck breaking an exhaust manifold I didn't make it.If I would have gone I would most likely not fired a shot until 9AM at the earliest.If I practice on my own I am done by 8 AM when ther conditionds start getting bad or I shoot extremely late at night using my jeeps headlights to illuminate the target.If you ever get the chance try it and let me know what its like shooting through 500,000 bugs and a 1,000 bats.
As to the wind shrinking groups we seldom get much Magic Wind out here.Normaly it is coming in from 9 O;clock or 3 O;clock and it is constantly changing.I had two groups out of 3 that were running very well in the conditions of that day but unfortunately we shoot 30 shots and can't pick the best 20.On one target I got hit by a switch and my target shows it.
Jerry Tierney reads the wind at our range a tad better than God himself and that is exactly why he wins so many Matches,Championships and re-set so many National Records.He lives 15 miles from the range and has probaly shot more rounds downrange than the next 30 shooters combined and I am not jerking your chain or embellishing the post.He bought the land and had his house built after the club decided to build the range.Practice Practice Practice.
If you ever make it out here he can call your bad shots by number and the scorer in the pits can confirm it.
He truly does know this range.
Lynn aka Waterboy
 
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